San Jose

Nov 10, 2008
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Just wondering if there has been any follow-up on this story. And has anyone heard from Tommy Thompson?

Colombia fights U.S. diver over gold-filled shipwreck
The Spanish galleon San Jose was trying to outrun a fleet of British warships off Colombia's coast on June 8, 1708, when a mysterious explosion...

By Joshua Goodman

The Associated Press

BOGOTA, Colombia — The Spanish galleon San Jose was trying to outrun a fleet of British warships off Colombia's coast on June 8, 1708, when a mysterious explosion sent it to the bottom of the sea with gold, silver and emeralds now valued at more than $2 billion.

Three centuries later, a bitter legal and political dispute over the San Jose is still raging, with the Colombian Supreme Court expected to rule this week on rival claims by the government and a group of U.S. investors to what is reputed to be the world's richest shipwreck.

Anxiously awaiting the decision is Jack Harbeston, managing director of the Cayman Islands-registered commercial salvage company Sea Search Armada, who has taken on seven Colombian administrations over two decades in a legal fight to claim half the sunken hulk's riches.

"If I had known it was going to take this long, I wouldn't have gotten involved in the first place," said Harbeston, 75, who lives in Bellevue.

In 1982, Sea Search announced to the world it had found the San Jose's resting place 700 feet below the water's surface, a few miles from the historic Caribbean port of Cartagena. Under well-established maritime law, whoever locates a shipwreck gets the rights to recover it in a kind of finders-keepers arrangement meant to offset the huge costs of speculative exploration.

Harbeston claims he and a group of 100 U.S. investors — among them the late actor Michael Landon and convicted Nixon White House adviser John Ehrlichman — have invested more than $12 million since a deal was signed with Colombia in 1979 giving Sea Search exclusive rights to search for the San Jose and 50 percent of whatever they find.

But all that changed in 1984, when then-Colombian President Belisario Betancur signed a decree reducing Sea Search's share from 50 percent to a 5 percent "finder's fee."

Current President Alvaro Uribe's office declined to discuss the impending court decision, which is expected by Wednesday. But over the years successive governments have argued that Colombia's maritime agency never had the authority to award exploration contracts to Sea Search because the wreck is part of the country's cultural patrimony.

The government may also be motivated by dollar signs. Harbeston believes that if sold skillfully to collectors and museums, the San Jose's treasure could fetch as much $10 billion — more than a third of Colombia's foreign debt.

The real value is impossible to calculate because the ship's manifests have disappeared. But the San Jose is known to have been part of Spain's only royal convoy to try to bring colonial bullion home to King Philip V during the War of Spanish Succession with England from 1701-1714.

"Without a doubt the San Jose is the Holy Grail of treasure shipwrecks," said Robert Cembrola, director of the Naval War College Museum in Newport, R.I.

The San Jose has become a national obsession among Colombians, for whom the "gringos" are the latest in a long line of foreign plunderers dating back to the Spanish conquerors. But that has not prevented three lower courts from ruling that Sea Search is entitled to half the treasure.


Several U.S. congressmen and the State Department also took up the cause, warning in letters to successive Colombian presidents that what they considered a de-facto expropriation could jeopardize unilateral trade privileges.

Luis Felipe Barrios, a former government attorney on the case, said pressure from Washington was so intense that in the late 1990s he received a fax from former Sen. Jesse Helms, then-chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, threatening to revoke his visa.

Rep. Dan Burton, R-Ind., one of the most active campaigners on Sea Search's behalf, did not return calls or e-mails seeking comment. Most of the dozen other congressmen who took part in the letter-writing campaign have since retired.

Adding to this modern-day pirate drama is a mystery: Some question whether the ship has even been found.

In 1994, Colombia hired treasure hunter Tommy Thompson to verify Sea Search's coordinates. Thompson, an American who has since disappeared allegedly with millions in investors' loot from a previous deep-sea find, turned up nothing.

Another oceanographer, Mike Costin, who worked on a commercial submarine brought in by Sea Search for one of the company's early, booze-filled expeditions, also has his doubts.

"We found something, but I don't think it was the San Jose," he said.

An underwater video taken of the alleged wreck in 1982 shows what looks like a corral reef-covered woodpile.

"But drink a glass of wine and it can look like almost anything," said Tony Dyakowski, a Canadian treasure hunter based in Vancouver, British Columbia. Dyakowski claims to have uncovered sea logs that put the San Jose miles closer to the mainland.

Harbeston shrugs off his detractors, saying, "If everyone's so sure it's not down there, then why don't they let us finish what we've started?"

Wherever the hulk lies, marine archaeologists say advances in diving, sonar and metal-detection make it possible to find almost any underwater wreck today. The problem is fending off rivals for whom the glint of gold is too powerful to resist.

"It's like when you light a lantern in the forest and you discover all these insects you didn't know were there before are now descending on you," said Peter Hess, a Delaware lawyer who represents salvage companies.

Besides Sea Search, rival salvage companies and the Colombian government, Spain has also actively defended its sovereign rights over sunken ships that flew its flag. Last week, Spain filed claims in a U.S. federal court seeking up to $500 million in colonial treasure a Florida firm estimates it found recently in a shipwreck in the Atlantic Ocean.

Archeologists also have voiced concern, pointing to a 2001 UNESCO convention — backed by Spain but not signed by Colombia or the United States — that outlaws commercial exploitation of sunken cultural heritage.

"People forget the San Jose is an underwater grave of 600 men," said Carla Rahn Phillips, a University of Minnesota historian and author of the new book "The Treasure of the San Jose." "The wreck deserves to be treated with respect, and most salvors I know only pay lip service to its historical importance."

The Colombian court ruling will also affect other commercial salvage companies eager to dive for more than 1,000 galleons and merchant ships believed to have sunk along Colombia's corral reefs during more than three centuries of colonial rule. Almost none have been recovered due to the legal limbo in the San Jose case.

Daniel de Narvaez, a scuba-diving businessman hoping to salvage a wreck near the Caribbean island of San Andres, said that given the long, tortuous battle, he expects the decision could go either way.

"After such a laughable and tragic ordeal, nothing surprises me anymore," he said.
 

diverlynn

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Legal tangle mires sunken treasures

By Chris Kraul and Carol J. Williams
December 02, 2007 in print edition A-6

For nearly 300 years, the wreck of the Spanish galleon San Jose has tantalized archaeologists and salvagers alike. When it sank in 800-foot-deep waters off this fortified Spanish colonial city, it was carrying gold, silver and precious jewels that a group of treasure hunters believes are now worth $2 billion.

But a quarter of a century after the U.S. group, which originally included a Hollywood actor, a professional golfer and a convicted Watergate felon, staked its claim, exploration and retrieval of the wreck seem as distant as the sinking sun at dusk over this historic walled city.

The stalemate over the claim by Seattle-based Sea Search Armada is partly the result of sweeping changes in international marine law and judicial interpretations during the last two decades that have made business more difficult for shipwreck salvagers. Colombia is loath to give a private foreign group access to a valuable historical site, though exploration permits it issued nearly 30 years ago seemed to do just that.

Legal experts say the new rules are a reaction to the access that salvagers got to the Titanic and 17th century Spanish galleon Nuestra Senora de Atocha in the 1970s and 1980s, which earned them tens of millions of dollars. The rules include a 2001 international UNESCO pact signed by 16 countries, not including the United States or Colombia, that converted shipwrecks into a new class of protected historical landmarks, giving archaeological and historical preservation precedence over profit-driven salvage.

The evolving standards apply to the hundreds of ships carrying potentially billions in booty that sank in the Caribbean and Atlantic during the centuries of colonial plunder, when Spanish galleons, British frigates and Portuguese slavers plied the waters between Europe and the New World.

“The San Jose case is probably the best example of how the world has changed around salvagers,” said Ole Varmer, an attorney with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in Washington. “And it looks like the Colombian government changed its mind.”

The richest of all colonial-era wrecks may well be the San Jose. It was stocked to the hatches with bullion and coins from Peru as it sailed in a convoy toward the fortified city of Cartagena in May 1708. Before it reached port, a fleet of British navy ships intercepted the Spanish ships, and an explosion sank the San Jose, sending its treasures and 600 crew members to the ocean floor.

The ship was known to have had a rich cargo because the convoy was the first in 10 years sent by the Spanish crown to bring home colonial booty, said University of Minnesota historian Carla Rahn Phillips. Ship traffic had been halted during the War of the Spanish Succession.

A costly search

It was not until the last couple of decades that technological advances gave explorers adequate tools to search for treasure at such a depth. Robotic instruments now can distinguish precious metals from iron and reach once-impossibly deep sites.

But such technology is expensive, and Colombian officials such as Armando Lopez, special legal counsel to President Alvaro Uribe, say that the government can’t afford to explore the shipwreck on its own.

“There are too many other priorities, such as housing, health and welfare of Colombians,” Lopez said in an interview.

Formed in 1982, the Sea Search Armada partnership originally included actor Michael Landon, pro golfer Cary Middlecoff and onetime Nixon aide John D. Ehrlichman, all now dead.

All along, Sea Search Armada has proposed financing the venture, possibly in cooperation with scientific and academic institutions, if Colombia will only allow it to proceed. Investor attorney Danilo Devis of Barranquilla said the original investor group, which later sold its interest to SSA, got a permit in 1979 from the government to explore the shipwreck site and split whatever it found 50-50 with the Colombian state.

But years-long legal wrangling has ensued.

A Colombian Supreme Court case decided in July, in which both sides claimed victory, seems only to have hardened the standoff. The judges found that anything on board that is “national patrimony” belongs to the Colombian government, and everything else is to be split 50-50 between the investors and the government.

Investor attorney Devis said the government’s claims to patrimony, meaning objects of such cultural and historical significance that they belong to a nation in perpetuity, are inappropriate because the cargo came from colonial Peru. In a telephone interview, Jack Harbeston, managing director of the partnership, said he and his associates hoped to strike a deal with Colombia on what constitutes national patrimony that would let exploration begin.

If an agreement is not reached, the investors will sue Colombia in a U.S. court for “de facto expropriation,” he said.

Another twist to the case is that Sea Search Armada has presented no physical evidence that it had found the San Jose wreck, only instrument readings. Rather than give one set of coordinates for the ship’s location, it filed half a dozen possible sites about 10 miles offshore, thus increasing the area of its claim.

Still uncertain is whether Spain will make its own claim to the ship and its contents under the cultural heritage accord sponsored by the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization. The pact provides that flag vessels and their contents remain the property of the state.

Colombian official Lopez theorized that Spain may be waiting to weigh in until the legal issues are resolved.
 

want2skydive

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How is it that they can hope to sue a foreign government in a United States court? Would the United States even have the jurisdiction to enforce our courts opinion? And I still don't see how Spain can may claim to stolen Peruvian gold. I hope someone will take a moment to explain this.
 

MORE AND BEYOND OSSY

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want2skydive said:
How is it that they can hope to sue a foreign government in a United States court? Would the United States even have the jurisdiction to enforce our courts opinion? And I still don't see how Spain can may claim to stolen Peruvian gold. I hope someone will take a moment to explain this.
Want2 your wright with the US having no jurisdiction in Colombia, Sea Search Armada Don't have possession of anything ! unlike
Odyssey.
Same old the Spanish stole ::) Peru, Colombia, etc were all Spanish states and had been for many years, It's how it was in
those days, no different to England, France, Holland empire building ! I don't here you complaining, about the Romans enslaving the Spanish !
forcing them to work in Spanish gold mines, All for the glories of Rome ! remember those guys ! killing, burning and taking what they wanted
all over Europe ! The Spanish had good teachers.
Odyssey has woken Spain up ! I'm sure their watching the developments closely.
You probably don't care but, It was a Spanish ship, that Spanish people died on ! and it will always be a Spanish Ship ! including it's contents
Thanks for the info Lynn.
PS If you believe the Spanish stole the gold, silver etc that means you are dealing with stolen goods :icon_pirat:
Ossy
 

want2skydive

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The New world wasn't so "new" to the tribes that already lived in what is now Peru. Just because some people sailed up in ships and stuck a flag in the sand doesn't mean it now belongs to them or their Crown. And your right almost every civilization in history has practiced some level of this type of exploration and expantion. The treasure should belong to the person that finds it. As for any remains of the Spaniards on board, if Spain would like to reclaim her countrymen then she should honor them if not leave them where they are. I may be new here but I haven't heard or read a word about Spain wanting these wrecks left alone(as in never to be found) only wanting wanting what has been found ONCE it has been found.
 

MORE AND BEYOND OSSY

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I noticed your from Texas, rich history, the Spanish, Mexican and American all put flags in the sand !
and all, especially the Americans pushed the red Indians off the land at gun point !
sounds like double standards!
During Spain's golden age for 300 years it lost many ships to weather, pirates and other jealous nation's
who wanted what Spain had. What sort of technology do you think they had to recover their people
and ships ? they couldn't fly in helicopters for a rescue, it could take them weeks, and that's if any body
survived to raise the alarm. It's a bold statement you make about Spain not Honoring it's people !
You know very little about Spain my Friend !
Spain recorded all it's loses in the Archives of the Indies in Seville with the names of it's people.
This is like a testament to it's people, never to be forgoten ! You of cause had the different classes.
Noble men and women and working class, no different to the Titanic 1st class you live, working class
you go down with the ship !
Your thoughts on finders keepers ! that's always on discussion here at Tnet.
My personal oppion is 50/ 50 and if Spain want all the goods because of historical significance then they should be compensated at the full value of the goods, off cause in US dollars not Euros their worth more ;D
Ossy
 

want2skydive

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MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
I noticed your from Texas, rich history, the Spanish, Mexican and American all put flags in the sand !
and all, especially the Americans pushed the red Indians off the land at gun point !
sounds like double standards!
During Spain's golden age for 300 years it lost many ships to weather, pirates and other jealous nation's
who wanted what Spain had. What sort of technology do you think they had to recover their people
and ships ? they couldn't fly in helicopters for a rescue, it could take them weeks, and that's if any body
survived to raise the alarm. It's a bold statement you make about Spain not Honoring it's people !
You know very little about Spain my Friend !
Spain recorded all it's loses in the Archives of the Indies in Seville with the names of it's people.
This is like a testament to it's people, never to be forgoten ! You of cause had the different classes.
Noble men and women and working class, no different to the Titanic 1st class you live, working class
you go down with the ship !
Your thoughts on finders keepers ! that's always on discussion here at Tnet.
My personal oppion is 50/ 50 and if Spain want all the goods because of historical significance then they should be compensated at the full value of the goods, off cause in US dollars not Euros their worth more ;D
Ossy

First, Yes I am from Texas. And in Texas we have a very different way of looking at things. If something is on my land its mine. If its on land that no one owns and I find it, it too is mine. Secondly, When I said that Spain could reclaim her countrymen and give them a burial in Spain, I'm not saying she isn't honoring by leaving them where they lay. Many have lost their lives and been laid to rest in foreign lands. I by no means am talking about taking rings off fingers or chains from around the necks of the dead. The remains of these and any person should be treated with respect. As for the rest of whats down there. There is a lot of treasure to be found. Even if the split was 75% to the finder and 25% to Spain it would mean billions of dollars in artifacts that Spain does not have the resources to find. And when I said that Spain should work to find these wrecks herself I was referring to in modern times with the same equipment that is used salvage companies.
 

want2skydive

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Well Mexico had just ended its war with Spain for Independence. Mexico being broke invited english speaking settlers into the sparsly populated areas in the northern territories. Once they got there they where told which crops to grow and which livestock to raise then had to hand most of it over to the Mexican government. They also had to convert to Catholicism. General Santa Anna abolished the Mexican Constitution and basically created a dictatorship. And several areas rebelled including Texas. Texas then declared its independence as Mexico had just done. General Santa Anna then marched at the head of a massive army into Texas to take it back. Hence The Battle of the Alamo. Later he was defeated and captured at San Jacinto. In his surrender he gave up control of Texas and declared the Rio Grande the border between Mexico and the Republic of Texas. And many people here in Texas believe that we were not properly inducted into the Union and that Texas should be its own country. So no Texas shouldn't be given to anyone except maybe back to Texans.
 

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wow...i missed that in history classes.

the republic of mexico "invited" northern europeans, americans, to settle in tejas, provided they "SWORE" TO BECOME MEXICAN CITIZENS, LEARN AND SPEAK SPANISH, BECOME CATHOLIC...

they were NOT required to grow a thing for the state, and since all trade outside the borders of mexico was regulated...the crops went south.

typically, these people who gave their word to the authorities, defaulted and claim to be an independent nation.

yes, poor tejans...so put upon.
 

want2skydive

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pippinwhitepaws said:
wow...i missed that in history classes.

the republic of mexico "invitied" northern europeans, americans, to settle in tejas, provided they "SWORE" TO BECOME MEXICAN CITIZENS, LEARN AND SPEAK SPANISH, BECOME CATHOLIC...

they were NOT required to grow a thing for the state, and since all trade outside the borders of mexico was regulated...the crops went south.

typically, these people who gave their word to the authorities, defaulted and claim to be an independent nation.

yes, poor tejans...so put upon.

You are correct those are terms under the deal the Stephen Austin brokered for the first colonies. When the colonies applied for statehood under the Mexican government it was misinterpreted as a declaration of independence. After the confusion cleared Santa Anna cracked down on the settlers and jailed Austin. As history has shown when you oppress people to much they push back for independence. That fact still remains the Santa Anna signed over control to Texas down to the Rio Grande to Texas. Now I'm not saying that there might not have been a gun to his head or knife at his neck when he signed it. As for citizens not following laws that they are told to, I'll say as an American there are a number of laws that I don't agree with and that i don't follow. For example the law in Florida that says if I were in waist deep water and found a 51 year old giant gold coin I have to report it. If the person I should report it to isn't standing right next to me I'm going to do my best to make sure they never know I "didn't" find it.
 

mariner

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want2skydive said:
And many people here in Texas believe that we were not properly inducted into the Union and that Texas should be its own country. So no Texas shouldn't be given to anyone except maybe back to Texans.

And some would believe that would be good, if only so that a Texan could never again become President of the rest of the States!

Mariner
 

want2skydive

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Ouch. That one hurt. Aww now your guy leave Ol' George W. Jr alone he didn't do that bad. Unfortunately this war which has become unpopular will probably define his presidency.
 

signumops

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Actually, the President from Texas which we are discussing here is Lyndon Baines Johnson, father of the "Great Society", an intentional scheme which fostered the delivery of the great pretender who now is about to take over Washington D.C. But you probably don't know or care about that, nor remember how Johnson got to be president in the first place. By the way, I understand the government of Australia has dis-armed all it citizens. How did that happen? Is the government that fearful of the citizens there?
 

want2skydive

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MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
The Best of Texas, Mr Don Henley :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
PS remind me not leave my car next to your place ;D

Hey Ossy,
Don't worry your car would be fine next to my place, didn't you hear about the old guy from Pasadina last year? Now if you said you misplaced your keys that might be a problem. ;D Lamentable sobre sus armas!
 

MORE AND BEYOND OSSY

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signumops said:
Actually, the President from Texas which we are discussing here is Lyndon Baines Johnson, father of the "Great Society", an intentional scheme which fostered the delivery of the great pretender who now is about to take over Washington D.C. But you probably don't know or care about that, nor remember how Johnson got to be president in the first place. By the way, I understand the government of Australia has disarmed all it citizens. How did that happen? Is the government that fearful of the citizens there?
Signumops, No we have seen what happen's in the states, when wackos have gun's, sorry real gun's like
AK47's I know it's in your constitution for the right to bear arm's , but how long ago was that written !
back in civil war time's ? Look up Port Arthur, Tasmania, this wacko killed a bus load of people, when you
could have firearms, and semiauto's only ! You guy's have gun's of mass destruction ! We have seen what
happens in the states, when people crack ! they go back to work ,school etc and take them all out!
Ossy
 

signumops

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Actually, before the civil war, during that period of time where the king of England was attempting to coerce prisoners to settle the North American continent. They were sent to Australia instead. I believe we had to resort to the use of arms to convince the government that we were pretty serious about standing up for ourselves at the time, unlike the Australians who remained solvent with the commonwealth. By the way, you're right about the guns... we have so many we've decided to rearm the Japanese. Ooops!!
 

want2skydive

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Ossy the truth is that when a person is hell bent on killing they don't need a gun to do it. A car works just the same. And not a single gun was used on September 11 2001. And here in the U.S. the states with the strictest gun controls have the highest crime rates. In Texas the crime rate dropped 13 percent when they allowed Texans to carry concealed hand guns. Think about the lives that could have been saved if someone on the back of that bus would have had a concealed handgun and knew how to use it. Banning guns doesn't stop criminals from getting guns it just stops everyday law abiding citizens from being able to defend themselves. Remember police can't be everywhere all the time.
 

MORE AND BEYOND OSSY

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You make some good points ! I was brought up on firearm's and it's like bug, you just got have one,two or three !
But if we all don't have guns, we can only throw rocks at each other,sure you can run people over with your car,
It's too easy for nut jobs to kill when they have automatic pistols in their pockets ! In a moment of madness
that can destroy peoples lives in seconds !
:icon_sunny: Peace to all
Ossy
 

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