Serious question

[lavender_moon]

Serious question...

How do you go about selling large quantities of found gold? Say, in large brick form. Does it matter if the gold is possibly old and how do you figure out how old it is? What are the legalities of selling it and do you have to report it? Do you have to state where you found it?

Thanks.

 

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[Darren in NC]

I think we just had a similar question...but not very serious answers

Check out:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,3988.0.html

 

[Charles,Oak Island]

[ON EBAY-----------Have iiiittt yyyooouuurrrr waaaayyy]

 

[True_Metal]

Between this post and that post on the other forum (Has to be the same person/people) i would say some lucky SOB's found a sh*itload o gold. Post some pics of it already and stop teasing us! :P

 

[lavender_moon]

Actually, we're not the same person/people...

But I do need some serious help. Where would you find info about how gold is/was mined? I believe that, from the bit of research that I have done, aren't gold bricks marked with a seal or something when they are made? Are there conditions that would allow gold to end up with a thin, black "tarnish" on the outside surface? The only one on the net that I have found is http://www.desertusa.com/magdec97/gold/pegleg2.html and it is unknown whether or not that story is true. Did they ever make bricks that weighed alot? Such as around 20 kilos or so?

I know these seem like stupid questions, but coming from someone who really has very limited knowledge about such things they seem reasonable to me.

Thanks.

 

[alec]

Gold "bricks" can come in various sizes as they were made by different people/groups over the centuries. The Spanish had their finger bars and larger, the gold rush in the 1800s saw many different assay companies minting their own coins, bars and bricks. All were usually marked with the weight, gold content and a mint mark so to speak. If a miner melted his own godl and formed bars then you could be talking about anything

Pure gold will not have the tarnish you speak of but if the gold bars are very old it's possible their content is not 100% gold. If there are other elements in the bars, and there will be if these were crudely made bars, then those other elements, such as silver, could cause the tarnish. The Spansih used to use cyanide or arsnic, I forget right now which one, to process the gold with. This could also leave the "tarnish" you refer to. I wold suggest hosing off anything you found really well, especially if it was found in an open air type inviroment such as a cave or tunnel and not buried where it would come in direct contact with the dirt. Personally, I would wash off any bars without some type of US mint mark before handling it without gloves.

As for mining techniques, there are several. The farther back in time you go, then more different they are. Good Ol' Uncle Sam passed the antiquities law back in the 1970s which makes selling "found" gold in a processed form difficult. Basically, to paraphrase, anything found on U.S. soil such as coins and bars that are more than 100 years old automatically belongs to Uncle Sam. It's been a while since I looked at this gem of a law but you might due a search for the federal antiquities act on you computer and see what you come up with.

 

[richg]

Yeah that will be the day should I ever be lucky enough to find 100 year old gold that I turn it over to the govt!! I dont know what kind of crack they were smoking when they came up with that garbage law but they can keep dreaming!!! Stupid Politicians!!

 

[southern gent]

Hmm, where did I leave those stupid gold bars? Dang things! I should just throw them away.
As for selling bulk gold, your in for a trip. As Alec said, the feds want theirs, and mine and yours. If you are lucky enough to find someone that will buy gold No Questions Asked, they more than likely are going to rob you or are working for the Gov.. Personally I would sell it off in smaller quantities. I would hate to destroy an antique, but the government has really left us with little or no choice.

The mining section of this site may tell you more about the how and where minning took or is taking place. Really, gold is found in almost every country in the world. One of the richest , in ore values, is probobly Peru. There is more to know than any one person could learn I belive. Good luck & HH! Chris

 

[Darren in NC]

Okay, okay...If you have really found a genuine cash of gold bars and you have established personal ownership of the said cache, then it's not too complicated. You have to separate the fact that it's made of gold from it's inherent value. The value is not in the gold, it's in it's antiquity and collectibility value. You don't sell off pieces of antique furniture as bits of wood. Same with gold found in a collectible state. If I found an old Inca death mask made of gold (or gold bars with a certain mint strike), then I would sell it to a museum or collector based on it's value to them, not because it's made of gold. I'd be crazy to melt it down, smuggle it and hope not to get caught.

From this point, you treat it like any other antique. Keep it or sell it. Once you've sold it, you pay your taxes on it and then you're done. You will get more money selling antique gold and paying taxes on it than you would selling pieces of gold at today's commodity price and hoping the IRS doesn't catch you. The peace of mind is priceless, too.?

 

[diggummup]

Okay, okay...If you have really found a genuine cash of gold bars and you have established personal ownership of the said cache, then it's not too complicated. You have to separate the fact that it's made of gold from it's inherent value. The value is not in the gold, it's in it's antiquity and collectibility value. You don't sell off pieces of antique furniture as bits of wood. Same with gold found in a collectible state. If I found an old Inca death mask made of gold (or gold bars with a certain mint strike), then I would sell it to a museum or collector based on it's value to them, not because it's made of gold. I'd be crazy to melt it down, smuggle it and hope not to get caught.

From this point, you treat it like any other antique. Keep it or sell it. Once you've sold it, you pay your taxes on it and then you're done. You will get more money selling antique gold and paying taxes on it than you would selling pieces of gold at today's commodity price and hoping the IRS doesn't catch you. The peace of mind is priceless, too.?

I'd have to agree with you Darren,but this is just a what if scenario.I can be completely honest when I say,if put in the same predicament,I really don't know how I would act.I might just head for the hills,I don't trust the Government one bit.My luck i'd end up with nothing after all the thieving bureaucrats finished punching holes in my "historical find".I don't think anyone can really answer this question (other than theoretically)unless they've actually been through this type of situation or unless they are already set for life financially.I don't know

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

There was a case in florida where the feds came in and claimed ownership to a wreck that was found in a wildlife refuge. The owner dumped his finds in the ocean and the feds sued to have him lead them to the wreck they stole. The judge not only told them he didn't have to show them where it was he then ordered the feds to guard it. When they said they couldn't guard the whole wildlife refuge he said that was their problem as they had demanded and been granted custody. He told them to get cracking at whatever the cost because he'd hold them for contempt if they didn't. He also told them to quit being such shitheads and work with the finders next time. exanimo, ss

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

Re: Serious question so I'll give you a serious answer

Don't sell archeological gold. Barter it to the government or some archie for a tax break or access to closed sites. Do that after you have cleared away all the bullion bars. Junk gold bars with no markings are best dispossed of as new production. Go to the nearest mining state and buy a patented gold mine. Preferably one that was worked out long ago or is flooded. Set up a small smelter and follow all mining laws. Gradually process the gold into bars and sell on the open market or store them legally in a bullion vault. This technique has been used for hundreds of years to hide the actual origin of found or stolen gold. Make sure the land is patented and that you hold the title and have title insurance. As soon as someone thinks you are producing gold you will be sued and maybe claim jumped. You can expect that all surrounding land will be filed and worked. If you want to be especially nasty file on all that land yourself before you begin production. Then you can sell it to the highest bidder or use it as a buffer to keep your dealings private. After you have processed all the gold you can keep the property for future use, let it go back for taxes, sell as residential property, or just have a no holds barred auction and sell it for cash. (preferably to the local banker or land baron) Do not sell that land and stay in the area. The buyers will not be amused when they find they bought nothing. Make sure you make absolutely no claims and can prove you made no claims. A printed auction flier or newspaper ad is pretty good proof. exanimo, ss

 

[Darren in NC]

SS, I don't trust the gov't any more than you do, but barter Last I talked to the IRS, they weren't into bartering But maybe a university's archie...

The key (and hardest task) to my post above is establishing personal ownership. That's why it's not hard afterwards. You own it. Sounds to me what we're trying to do is figure out how to make it ours without trying to legally gain ownership. I am not interested in another friendly Lab Rat/Coinshooter sparring match about honesty. But my values and my loyalty to my family aren't worth all the trouble of being put in jail by local, state or feds for frauding others.

Why don't we all (me included) do our homework now and find out how to do this legally BEFORE we find anything. Then if we do find anything, we don't feel the need to panic, guard, smuggle and commit fraud. We already know what to do with it. Some may feel it's a waste of time if they think they will never find anything, but you never know... 8) As an avid cache hunter (who hasn't found a stash of gold bars yet), I will commit to this and keep you posted as to what legal process unfolds.

 

[sgtfda]

That is a easy one. You send it to a refiner such as David Fell Co. in Ca. I would first melt it and add some of the metals used in 14k gold and bring it down to 14k. It is then just some old scrap gold that was melted down and cast into small blocks. You can buy a adjustable mold for making small bars to send in. If you find that much gold open a jewelry business that buys scrap gold in a area where you are not required to register items bought. You can also cast some items and sell it on ebay for the gold value. Go to ebay and type in scrap gold to check it out.

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

Friend Darren, Philanthropists buy stuff for the old alma mater all the time. They let it be known that they will pony up the cash for anything worthwhile that is offered for sale. Sometimes they want credit for finding it and donating and sometimes they settle for credit for financing. The Smithsonian has in the past finagled tax breaks for "donors" when they couldn't come up with the cash to buy something they wanted. Where there's a will there's a way. Selling outlets are not a problem. Selling secretly with no receipts is a problem for some folks. Anyone who can't resist the newspaper coverage is doomed. Anyone who insists on cashing out in one transaction is throwing away big money. Much better to draw out only what you need and store the rest in a well-placed post hole bank of your own. exanimo, ss

 

[Darren in NC]

Some good thoughts, SS. Let's just hope we have this challenge at some point in our endeavors

 

[coinshooter]

First off, I don't need ANY more sparring matches. LOL! If you can't tell already, I have a little bit of the devil in me and it's just fun to get folks riled up here every once in a while to "stir the pot".
Secondly, I really like Darrens idea.
How about we all put together THE legal way to do this. For real.
I'm sure there are folks out there that don't need the trouble or the headache of dealing with the shady way.
I'd be the first to keep it, but it would be nice to know how to go about trying to do the right thing.
Of course, the understanding I would have is that every legal crook in town will get in line for a piece of the pie (example: when the SS.Central America was found, the other treasure hunters hunting for it tried to get a piece of the action as well as the insurance company that paid out a claim on it over a hundred years ago as well as the gov't.) I would have told the insurers, well we have found it, well just pick up our part and when were done, you can retrieve yours.
I guess the worst crook when we come to standing in line would be the IRS or U.S. Gov't entities.
Get them paid off with their share and the rest would probably be a cake walk.

 

[findmor]

What if you don't think the gov or the irs has a share?? Did they pay part on your detector? Can you deduct it on your taxes? Do they send you a personal letter notifying you that some gov program might supply you with some service or money? Can you deduct mileage on your vehicle for hunting forays? As far as I'm concerned if the gov wants what's in the ground let them go out and hunt for it like the rest of us do.? ?keepmor by findmor

 

[coinshooter]

Right on, I couldn't agree mor! I'm just interested in what the right way would be, not saying I would do it.

 

[msamerica]

Hi, I have asked the same question before. The person who answered me is now deceased so I can't clarify the exact details. I was told to take any gold, coin, ingot or whatnots to the gold exchange in Canada. I forgot what city the exchange was located in. I do think Mr.SS has got some good advice for you, and if you are SURE you have gold, I advise you to seriously consider following his plan. If you do not know how to smelt and reform the gold, better figure it out, as if you ask for help you will likely get ripped off.