Some Thoughts on Captain Thomas Beale/Beall

[bigscoop]

Here's a couple thoughts on Captain Thomas Beale/Beall. In my mind, here’s what’s really at issue in this ongoing debate/search for the right Thomas Beale:

If we accept the story as it was told in the Beale Papers then Beale was elected as Captain by the members of his assembled “civilian” party, therefore there would be no official military record of this Captain Thomas Beale/Beall, or of the party’s thirty members during the period in question. The only way military records for these men would exist during the period in question is if they were active military personnel at the time, which would then strongly suggest that they were acting under military direction, which means the Beale Papers could no longer be taken at face value.

As for an ex-Captain Thomas Beale/Beall, performing a civilian action under a previous military title, it’s very possible, if not even likely. However, if this is the case then there was only two American ex-Captain Thomas Beale/Beall that I know of who remain as suspect and whose activities during the period in question, 1817 – 1821, remain largely unknown. Both of these men were at the battle of New Orleans. As far as I know, there are no more American ex-Captain Thomas Beale/Beall who could have been active during the period in question, 1817 – 1821.

PS: You'll also encounter "Major" Beale's, etc.

 

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[tat2guy]

The Captain Beall I've encountered was to be promoted to Major. Unfortantly for him he was killed in the Blackhawk war (the battle of Apple River I think). But, and this is a big but, I can't find a list of the dead to confirm that. This is something I am currently working on.

HH Jay

 

[bigscoop]

Here's a question for you guys....who "exactly" was this Thomas Beale?

 

[tat2guy]

I feel stupid Im having trouble reading Canadian. Atleast those names sound Canadian!!!

 

[bigscoop]

I feel stupid Im having trouble reading Canadian. Atleast those names sound Canadian!!!

It's French-ish.

 

[bigscoop]

Here's something else worth considering......in the Beale Pamphlet the unknown author credits Morriss as having stated that he though Beale was from some western region of the state, etc. During the period in question, 1818, Virginia was a much larger place, but in 1885 Kentucky was now sitting over "old Virginia"........and guess what.....(Quoting PV) there was an apparently somewhat wealthy Thomas Beale who bought and sold land in Kentucky in 1837...his place of residence given as "China". Sounds like a man who didn't want to be found. So if the unknown author really did know the entire truth behind the whole affair, then is this Kentucky Beale the right Beale? Is that what the unknown author was telling us?

 

[bigscoop]

I feel stupid Im having trouble reading Canadian. Atleast those names sound Canadian!!!

Took me a while to find it, but a French speaking Canadian friend of mine translated it for me.........

"1000 piastres* reward will be paid to whomever arrests Pierre Lafitte who, last night, broke out of the parish prison and escaped. The said Pierre Lafitte is 5 feet 10 inches tall, solidly built, nicely tanned and with slightly crooked eyes. We believe it useless to describe him further, the said Lafitte being well known in this town. The said Lafitte brought with him three negroes, namely: Sam heretofore the property of Mr. Sawza; Cezar, belonging to Mr. Lefebvre; and Hamilcar, belonging to Mr. Jarnand. The reward above will be given to whomever delivers the said Lafitte to the undersigned, who will also pay fifty piastres* for each of the said negroes. J. H. Holland, Jailer - State of Louisiana, Court of"

 

[tat2guy]

I bet he took a canoe to St Louis, Bay that is.....is this also tied to the court document that has one Thomas Beale/Beall on it from New Orleans


HH Jay

 

[bigscoop]

Well.....St. Louis has always been an area of uncertainty/debate, though most feel/believe is was the MO St. Louis. Then again, New Orleans was a huge smuggling port and if silver really was exchanged for diamonds then I can't think of a better place to arrange/access that sort of thing. A lot of privateering vessels and other ships moving in and out of New Orleans, not to mention the shear numbers of, lets call them, "worldly characters" frequenting/roaming the place.

As far as the Thomas Beale on the wanted poster.......I think all goes back to a case of mistaken identity within the New Orleans. My personal feeling is, and always has been, that there never was a cross country wagon train or a mine, but rather everything centered & passed through New Orleans in connection/"connexion" with Texas, and that the writer of the pamphlet had full knowledge of the entire affair and a legal background.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Thinking "INSIDE THE BOX" of the BEALE PAPERS... MAYBE TJB was Pierre, AWOL from jail... becoming WEALTHY in Ky. (TB). CHINA? HA! WILL review THAT, again... gonna do MORE R & I; certainly explains the FRENCH in the BEALE PAPERS. MY research on the Lafitte Bros indicated that Jean stayed in New Orleans while older brother, Pierre traveled to DC, Baltimore, Virginia... and Pierre was a FreeMason! Jean NEVER joined; "big" brother, Pierre handled "BIZ", and COULD have supervised
the movement of $$$$$$$$$$ & jewelry into Kentucky & Virginia via FreeMasons! Ky. Thom. Beale... I got my eyes on ye!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

THEN... there is THIS! On TN: Jean LaFitte (Pirate) & the Beale Treasure: forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=227729.10;wap2 It is on the PIRATE TALK! "Forum"; Jean LaFitte & the Beale Treasure... Post-War of 1812 "thread". Coffee?

 

[bigscoop]

Thinking "INSIDE THE BOX" of the BEALE PAPERS... MAYBE TJB was Pierre, AWOL from jail... becoming WEALTHY in Ky. (TB). CHINA? HA! WILL review THAT, again... gonna do MORE R & I; certainly explains the FRENCH in the BEALE PAPERS. MY research on the Lafitte Bros indicated that Jean stayed in New Orleans while older brother, Pierre traveled to DC, Baltimore, Virginia... and Pierre was a FreeMason! Jean NEVER joined; "big" brother, Pierre handled "BIZ", and COULD have supervised
the movement of $$$$$$$$$$ & jewelry into Kentucky & Virginia via FreeMasons! Ky. Thom. Beale... I got my eyes on ye!

If the memoirs are indeed real, which I think they could be, then according to J. Laffite his brother Pierre spent most of his time after about 1817 - 1818 "generally" moving between New Orleans and the larger cities on the east coast handling a lot of their business affairs. Assumed names were also a very common practice of both brothers, as were secret codes and the such......so Reb, "I have always liked that Kentucky connection!" (And, I think you'll discover a few curious relationships/connections in that man's history once it's found.) Jean supposedly went on to live out the rest of his life in Alton, Illinois...so Kentucky wasn't that far away in terms of staying in contact. But, there is also some concern here as to the date of Pierre's eventual death?

In about 1826, I think it was, both brothers met and "decided to give up the cause" and then in 1830 they both "lived in Richmond" for about a full year. All of this according to what is entered in Laffite's memoirs. The Laffites were top-notch smugglers, their activities spanning much of the U.S. as it was during the period in question, as well as in other countries and the disputed territory. But what I really like about the poster is that makes a direct connection between the Laffite's and a "Thomas Beale" who at the time of the poster, "was active in court business". We know that Lallemand used Laffite's help and services in preparing for the Texas move through New Orleans, and we also know that a "Thomas Beale" with a legal background was in New Orleans, and that he knew the Laffites well. And, the Laffites and Lallemand also had a slew of important and influential contacts all over the place, including Adam's, who eventually platformed the Adam's Onis Treaty with Spain, ratified in 1821, which gave Spain the disputed territory in exchange for Florida, effectively strangling the French hope, then came the Monroe Doctrine which completely killed all hope.

And best of all, Laffite and Lallemand were both after the same thing in Texas, and eventually Florida, "a new French possession," and both of these histories privide written proof of missing funds that were never accounted for. So it likely all goes back to the Beale/Beale's in New Orleans as we can place all of these people entwined in New Orleans during the period in question and they all knew each other.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Do we think it's more likely that Pierre Lafitte simple used the name of a New Orleans acquaintance (Thomas Beale), or that he actually WAS Thomas Beale, using an alias to evade capture? Wasn't both Thomas Beale and Pierre Lafitte arrested/imprisoned in New Orleans? Were they the same person?

 

[bigscoop]

Do we think it's more likely that Pierre Lafitte simple used the name of a New Orleans acquaintance (Thomas Beale), or that he actually WAS Thomas Beale, using an alias to evade capture? Wasn't both Thomas Beale and Pierre Lafitte arrested/imprisoned in New Orleans? Were they the same person?

All "very, very interesting" possibilities. This is why I say that the whole Beale thing in New Orleans, at some level, has to be a case of mistaken identity "somewhere".

Incidentally, the above arrest was "the arrest" that ended up seeing all of Laffite's "known possessions" seized, a huge event that even ended up being argued at the highest levels of government. In the end, however, Laffite never saw correction for these loses, not even after his critical participation in, and eventual pardon that resulted from, the Battle of New Orleans. So when you look at the entire scope of things and the parties involved, there was a ton of motive, endless experience and resources, and perhaps most important, a true cause. And when you consider this cause, "liberty"....the principles in the DOI......the location of Thomas Jefferson's summer home, who was the author of the DOI,...etc, etc.........it all seems to come, perhaps, full circle. i.e.,....ending at the very birth place of the principles that inspired it.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

The location of Thomas Jefferson's retreat home, POPLAR FOREST is CLOSER to Lynchburg, Va. (@ 4 miles)
than Bedford City (FORMERLY known as LIBERTY... @ 10 miles); "google" POPLAR FOREST for more info.

 

[bigscoop]

The location of Thomas Jefferson's retreat home, POPLAR FOREST is CLOSER to Lynchburg, Va. (@ 4 miles)
than Bedford City (FORMERLY known as LIBERTY... @ 10 miles); "google" POPLAR FOREST for more info.

Bedford County, 4 miles from Buford's,......."Liberty"....near the DOI author - TJ's summer home. I think the geographical/history of the area was "perhaps" just a generalized target.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

OK... Bufords or TODAY'S MONTVALE is CLOSER to Roanoke, Va., than Lynchburg, Va.; Bufords is about 20 miles WEST of Bedford City (FORMERLY known as LIBERTY) .

 

[Kentucky Kache]

In about 1826, I think it was, both brothers met and "decided to give up the cause" and then in 1830 they both "lived in Richmond" for about a full year. All of this according to what is entered in Laffite's memoirs.

1830? And Morriss was to keep the box locked until 1831? Getting in there and taking care of business before the time expired? I know, more questions.

 

[bigscoop]

In about 1826, I think it was, both brothers met and "decided to give up the cause" and then in 1830 they both "lived in Richmond" for about a full year. All of this according to what is entered in Laffite's memoirs.

1830? And Morriss was to keep the box locked until 1831? Getting in there and taking care of business before the time expired? I know, more questions.

The "possible" picture is even much larger then that. The original terms of the grant/loan to the French exiles, (1817), was to be payable in 14 years, or in 1831, the same year Morriss was to open the box.

 

[bigscoop]

Morriss was to open the box June, 1832.

31, 32.......either or, it's really not that critical and can always be debated.......but it's the "lived in Richmond in 1830 for a full year" that's possibly the really important detail.