Sorry Sir, but metal detecting is not permitted here.................

[Ray S ECenFL]

I live in Brevard County Florida and have been detecting here for 15 years. Today I went to a few local (county) parks to pick up some clad. At my second park a lady walks over to me and says " Sorry Sir, but metal detecting is not permitted here".

Thought number one: Has the county passed some legislation that I am not aware of?
Thought number two: This lady is misinformed.
Thought number three: Keep this civil. Do not make it an ugly scene.

I said I was not aware that MDing was not permitted in Brevard County parks and that I must have missed the sign that tells me it is prohibited. She says that there are no signs.
( I don't want to post this in the Rants section, so I will be nice)

I asked if it was someting that was recently decided by The County and she told me, "Oh, no, it has been this way for about 7 years".

I figured that the best thing to do was depart and move on to my next county park, so I bid my good byes and moved on.

I MD around county workers all the time, speak with them and have never been told that MDing was not permitted. I even had one worker compliment me on not leaving any visible signs when I recover a target. ( He evidently had been watching me for some time). Since I have never, in all the years of MDing in this County, been approached and told that detecting was not permitted I can only figure that this lady was misinformed.

Brevard County has many signs telling you that no golfing is permitted, no dogs ( except guide dogs) are permitted, no this and no that, but I have NEVER seen a NO Metal Detecting sign and hope I never do see one.

Just thought I would share my unusual experience with you all and mention to everyone to take great care when digging in public parks because you do not want to be the reason for those dreaded signs to be put up.

Hope you all had a Merry Christmas and will have a safe New Years.

Ray S

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

MD-dog, on the contrary. I think rmptr's illistration is a good one. I mean, the underlying principle is the same, even though it's just two different pursuits that persons have/had. That Miller fellow could have gone cowering away, but he not only, on the start, ignored the law, but once ticketed, fought it through several stages of appeal.

But I think we digress: I don't think anyone here would argue that we can purposefully break md'ing laws, just because the law is silly. I guess if it's SILLY ENOUGH (ie.: like if the day ever came where all detecting was outlawed, even on private property, in the USA), it would be high time for someone to purposefully go out there, get a ticket, and fight it to the Supreme Court. But this thread had most recently been talking about if you need to ask to BEGIN with, not an issue of "if there's a known law, can I or should I break it?".

All I can say is, if anyone is skittish about the remote possibility that they can't detect schools and parks in their area, just do this when you ask: Ask "Is anything that addresses the subject of metal detecting in any of the city's codes". WHATEVER YOU DO, don't walk in asking "Can I metal detect?" You see the difference in the two questions? One puts the burden of proof directly on them to answer yes or no, with reference to specific already-written law. The other let's the bureaucrat simply tell you "no", just because he said so, even if there's nothing specific about it in city law. And if you THEN say, "where is that written", he can merely take anything he thinks applies, like "don't disturb the vegetation" or whatever, to say no. The first way of asking nips all that in the bud, because you are specifically asking for any wording that addresses, specifically metal detecting.

And no rmptor, by casting the question in these terms (or not asking at all, IMHO) you will not get arrested, go to jail, or give our hobby a bad name. Do you really think the world watches you through cracks in their living room blinds waiting for you to make one strange move, and then whip open the blinds and say AHA! He picked his nose!!"

 

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[rmptr]

Wow!

It's almost like we are NOT on the same side!

It would just make me all warm and fuzzy if someone would actually READ the law before contesting it's content... Did anyone look up Miller v California? Personal liberty and freedom most certainly apply!

I will guarantee you one thing... the more time spent reading law, the more you appreciate the reasoning behind good law, and become repulsed by bad law.

Code of Ethics! Code of Ethics! Code of Ethics!

That sounds so very much like what I just read in the news about Denmark regarding the turban with a rocket in it cartoon...

Immigrant religious fanatics are

1) Marching in the streets...
2) decrying "God is great! Freedom of speech is a plague!"

I can NOT imagine exercising a civil liberty to claim civil liberties are too great... LOL

Suppose I'm more of an 1872 Mining Laws kinda guy...

Samuel Adams is among my favorites...

“The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil constitution, are worth defending against all hazards: And it is our duty to defend them against all attacks.”

Please advise me why, or how, for what reason would anyone possibly disagree with old Sam?

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”
Samuel Adams

Happy Hunting
rmptr

 

[rmptr]

Treasure,
I think it remains possible to make reasonable use of public lands without interfering extraordinarily with others, in most cases.

When I was younger I blasted all over God's creation on dirtbikes and 4 x 4's and there was just no way the greenies were gonna smile at me! I won't prevaricate and say it was ALL associated with my mining claims, or searching out better hunting spots.

Yet I AM a lawful individual. 1872 Mining Law

There was once a fellow named Frederic Bastiat.
He wrote a book entitled "The Law."
You might wish to read it.
It is among the best I ever read.

Within it, he states, "Only by constant application of labor to natural resources does society progress."
I agree.

Rumor has it my relatives were not so subtle...
rmptr

 

[Tom_in_CA]

TreasureTales, I don't think anyone has a problem with keeping laws that are known and obvious. Like, if a "no md'ing" rule is posted, or when you have been warned and thus know, or when the place is such an obvious historical monument, you should have known. But where I think we disagree (maybe not?) is if that gets morphed into having to grovel to each city hall asking "permission" to detect in the most inane and innocuous non-historical parks, sandboxes, etc... Once we lower ourselves to that level, it's almost as if we think we're somehow so inherently evil, that we had to ask to begin with.

But let me ask you this:

1) Would you agree that one can check for themselves if md'ing is prohibited by something specifically applying to md'ing? That is, can they look it up for themselves, and ..... if they see nothing that addresses the subject (ie.: "silent on the subject") that they can assume they can detect, unless told otherwise? Or do you suggest that they walk in and get permission for md'ing, even if there are no laws (that they found out for themselves) that are on the books?

2) If they announced tomorrow, that all metal detectors were illegal in the USA, even on private property, what would you do? If, in order to challenge the constitutionality of this law, it became necessary for someone to "test it", by purposefully getting a ticket (so as to appeal it to the highest level), would you volunteer for that? Or would you suggest that the TH'rs code of ethics would even prohibit you from doing that? And if it did eventually get over-turned, so that you could go back to enjoying your hobby, would you consider the ticket-getter to be a hero, or a villian?

 

[MD Dog]

Like I've said before, this isn't an issue because, there are very few places that try to make MDing illegal. And when they do it is quickly shot down as an infringement of a persons personal liberties simply because there are no victims from MDing. So what are we talking about ? Almost all laws aimed at us as MDers as well as treasure hunting in general are couched in this manner. No digging or defacing of the land in question. Although some places due get away with equating the very fact that you may be in possesion of a tool used for the express purpose that would necessitate digging or defacing,I.E. your MD. Like Natl. Parks get away with making it illegal to even posses an MD on the property. But the local fight would be a better place to try and make a stand against these types of laws, cause if you go wandering into a Natl. Park with an MD no matter what your excuse, they won't even listen to it, because they'll be too busy putting you in cuffs and haulling your butt off to jail. So If you wanna fight these laws on a local level, what your saying is that you think you can go into any school or playground and based upon the fact that others use these public facilities, that in itself prevents them from stopping you from doing the same. But that doesn't hold water because a twelve year old swinging on monkey bars is a non destructive activity that uses the equipment provided for that activity. While you can MD the line gets drawn when you dig or deface.

I think the only reason that these things are even still debated here is that some of you come from places where you can MD without regards to any laws. Even when they have enacted laws just like the ones found in my area. This because you choose to ignore these same laws, and have yet to be challenged on the subject. So you think see they are powerless to stop me I'm all powerful since they know my argument will win in a court. But I think that just because your local officials show good common sense in the enforcement of these laws, that doesn't mean these laws have no teeth and that they cannot if they so choose , be employed against you. Given different people with different points of view elected into power in your area and you could very well find yourself in trouble and trying to plead your interpretation of the law in a court. And that never looks good for us. People are funny that way, they think that there are other better and more law abiding ways to change laws they see as unfair. I am trying to make the right contacts at social event to work my way into the inner workings of the who's who here to try and lobby for more defined laws as I think this is the best root for such things. Like I said the laws here are all concerning digging and or defacing. that Said I think it will be easier and better for me as well as MDers reps, if I can get these laws more refined as to what constitutes defacing or digging. I think the original context of these laws which have been in place in N.Y. state since the early 1900s was aimed directly at those treasure hunters who would dig multiple deep wide holes in search of rumored treasure in such places as Central Park in NYC. These types of thing continue even today and are the real aim of these laws and should be prevented. I'm not in favor of letting just anybody dig anywhere for anything. There must be restraints or some people will really take advantage on a whim. But three inch holes that are refilled or at the least allowing retrieval with probes etc...are not any more defacing than the annual cross country race with thousands running to raise funds for charity. Even a lawsuit against the entity which passed these laws would be better than flagrant disregard for these laws, maybe get a bunch of clubs to chip in for a fund. Someone else asked on another thread what the natl. MD organizations are doing about these laws. As far as I've seen, nothing. They claim they could do more if more people would join and pay their dues. I say do more and that will get more people to join and pay there dues. But lets be honest a lobby of a few thousand doesn't speak nearly as loud as a lobby of tens of thousands. Even then the politicians know how to count and they know that a national organization with even hundreds of thousands of members still only equate to mayby a few thousand in their state. What we need, but don't have, is tens of thousands within each state. Our adversaries are very strong with at least tens of thousands in even the least populated states.

Well I've gone on long enough, except to say. It some times is so easy for some to say I dare them to fight me, when they have a pretty good bet that no one in their area cares enough to take them up on that challenge. But any time you wanna try challenging these laws in my state Tom I would say Go for it, except I also know and care what people think of me and what I love doing,MDing. So stay home enjoy your self proclaimed freedom, but I hope my words as well as others who speak of common sense and ethics, ring in your ears the day the left gets control of your activities in your area and your cooling your heals in the local stalag for having defaced their grass and ground. And I hope your ears burn with these words when you stand before your judge telling Him/Her how you have defined their laws and are there fore not guilty of breaking them. I hope you finally get the message of ethics when the jailers laugh as they slam shut the door to your small world for however long.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

MD Dog, good post. Points well taken. I understand the difference between the person doing one form of park recreation, which the "average person" would say the park was designed for. Verses md'ing, which the "average person" would say is the odd-ball anomoly, or (gasp) destructive. Good point.

To address some of your other points. You say: "there are no victims from MDing" Well, try telling that to most archies. And the last time I looked, most archies are on the govt. payroll. Either directly, or indirectly via public universities.

Next you suggest that the reason some states, cities, etc.. seem more off-limits (based on the tempos of threads on the subject) is that "some of you come from places where you can MD without regards to any laws". That might be true, but let's disect the WHY of that very comment you made. To start with, yes, it might be true that if I looked long enough and hard enough, I might find something that says I can't detect some park that my friends and I have routinely worked for 25 yrs unbothered. And you might surmise that the reason md'rs in my locacle don't seem to have any problems, repurcussions, etc... is that no one cares, it's not an issue, it's fine-print that hasn't seen the light of day in 50 yrs., etc.. Ie.: if you asked the rank-&-file ranger or bureaucrat, odds are, he'd have no idea himself, till he looked it up, and told you "no". I understand that so far. But ask yourself, what made one area of the USA like that, and another not like that? I have a theory, and it goes like this: Drawing from my example of my area (where there *might* be rules, but they are unknown and we just *go*), stop and think: If 10 or 12 persons each year were to go to various police stations, park rangers, and bureaucrats asking: "Can I metal detect here?" And let's say, that they started getting "No's". By the end of a few years, what do you think would start to happen in the field? So, backup. It started with a geographic locale that seemed to be very relaxed on the subject. But throw in a bunch of folks who wish to bring attention to the subject, and PRESTO, you have attention brought to the subject. On a smaller scale, I have seen that very scenario happen, so I can only assume it happens, psychologically, on a larger scale and in larger geographics too. The "smaller scale" to which I am referring, is several specific individual parks, where a friend or myself went, unbothered, since the dawn of time. Then enter in a person who asks permission, is denied, and all of the sudden others start getting booted! You know, that same ranger, who previously never gave it second thought, passes by a different md'r the next day, and thinks AHA! there's one of them!

So yes, the geographic differences of lax-ness DOES exist. And yes, maybe that's why I keep wondering "why all the fuss? Just go!" But the key question is, why does the disparity exist in the first place? Believe me, CA is no less litigical than anywhere else in the USA, and archies lurk around every corner. But if you're not a moron leaving holes, and go at low-traffic off-hours ......... well, you get the picture. But yes, once your city or your state starts to see md'ing as evil, then the harm is already done. And yes THEN you are bound to start keeping the known and enforced rules. It's all a question of why did they get "known and enforced" to begin with. I guess where I'm coming from is this: I don't want to see more areas added to this encrouching psychology to begin with. Like, why would I start asking where I'm not bothered, and why would I want someone (let's say, they just moved to this area) to start asking here either? And I just wonder if this same thing isn't true for other areas too?

Naturally, we have a problem knowing where is lax and where is not lax, to begin with, UNLESS you asked. To that I would say, "ask long-time md'rs" don't inquire of city halls, etc... If you MUST see something in print (or the lack thereof) do it on your own, by going to city hall, county, etc.. websites of their codes. Do NOT waltz in and ask "can I metal detect here?"

Re.: jail, etc... Once again, the only stories one reads of such thing on the net, are either 1) guys night sneaking obvious historic monuments 2) guys who couldn't take a warning, ignoring signs, fences, etc... 3) If either of those two don't cover it, the stories are rare indeed. I mean, yeah, every once in awhile a casual md'r in a non-posted non-historic public park gets roughed up by some overzealous archie or cop. Sure. I'll grant that it's happened. So too have drivers been roughed up and thrown in jail before by overzealous cops, for a simple turn-signal infraction. But I guess choose not to run my life by exception-stories.

 

[MD Dog]

Tom I too believe as you that stirring the pot or disturbing the hornets nest is a bad way to go about it. But see where you are they are apparently still just domesticated bees, while here they are much more of the African killer bee variety, no need to stir, they already very active without our help. You ask why the desparity between our two locals I'm sure there are many reasons, but does that really matter ? Since that is the way it is here, that is the way anyone seeking to metal detect in these parts must deal with it. I applaud your intentions to keep the questions from being asked, I.E. outta sight outta mind. But that like I said doesn't change the laws if they do exist in your area, and if they do you will always run the risk of running afoul of those laws. Since all would take is one person with a hair up their butt to do a little research and then report you and demand that the laws be enforced. You say don't ask or it will stir the hornets nest. But if you don't ask someone finding out if those laws exist what are they and how do they relate to you and what your doing. Like I keep telling you no one can stop anyone from MDing since that is the act of Swinging your metal detecting machine and detecting ferrous vs non ferrous metal below grade. Even the Natl. Parks Laws to prohibit possesion of MDs could be challenged. It's not until you begin to dig that anyone has any say in the matter, and this is where most of the strength of these laws lies because of their interpretation of what constitutes defacement. I'm all for chalenging whatever laws there are as long as it's done in a proper way that reflects well on the rest of our community. As for many they cannot afford a lawyer to find these things out, nor are most of them willing to fight the fight for MD freedoms. They just wanna know can I spend saturday with the kids MDing and digging up some clad at our local park. It is for these people that I say check with your local police dept. or ask someone with stewardship over the property which you seek to detect. Because I don't wanna be the person who say's sure go ahead only to have that person come back a couple of weeks later all mad because there was a local ordinance that made MDing at there local school or park illegal, which resulted in dad or mom being locked up in front of the little ones and they were traumatized by our black booted protectors.

 

[rmptr]

Treasure,

I fully understand why you might feel like it resembles beating that dead horse... it becomes tedious after a while!

But that is the way 'they' operate... 'They' hedge a bit, here and there, encroach more and more upon personal freedom, and the liberty to exercise it, and one day you wake up to find it gone.

Here in CA a program was activated by forestry service to charge a fee to enter national forest areas.
It demanded purchase of an Adventure Pass.
There was a daily rate, and a yearly rate.

(I do not know if remains in effect.)

It's pretty much another tax, in line with the Tea Tax upon what was once dumped in the harbor.

Can you IMAGINE, it now costs $30 for a fishing license in CA??
(Gosh, I have no clue what a hunting license costs! ...and years back I was an active shooter)

Don't get caught dropping a line in the Pacific Ocean without one under penalty of law!

There's more than one way to skin a cat, and those bureaucrats at the public trough are very creative and incessant in generating funds for their paycheck.

Perhaps metal detecting hobbyists will one day be required to purchase a license, as the above
(Permits ARE required for mining activity, justifiable because it is a commercial venture making use of public land and resources... and you must pass the prudent man test to patent a claim.)

Bottom line is, the power to tax, is the power to destroy.

As I'd said elsewhere, there's two ways to change bad law.
Get a flock of signatures on a petition to motivate a politician, or,
Appear before a court of law as an injured party, (recipient of a citation), and contest it's validity.

I can recall when it WAS taught in the gubment skool that George Washington and his friends, Paul Revere, and others, would have been hung by the crown for treason. Nathan Hale, was.

I feel this thread can present invaluable information to ALL of us interested in metal detecting.
If we can get our ducks in a row, it will facilitate the process of overturning bad law as it crops up, for the betterment of all.

rmptr

 

[lou423]

Sometimes when I am detecting I see a police car coming towards me full speed, they come close to me and then leave.
What happens is that people call the police on me and they come to check me out thinking that I am digging trenches.

What I would do is move away and keep searching.

 

[lou423]

Whenever I am detecting a park and i see people watching me, I always head for the nearest garbage can and empty my pouch.

It looks good and is good public relations.

Sometimes I carry a large mesh bag and pick up trash as I go about my detecting.

Good public relations.

And I always cover my holes. I leave no sign of me being there.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I know to avoid National Parks, and State parks unless there is a beach on the ocean., and then I still ask the park ranger.

In city and county parks I don't ask for permission, if there is not a sign at the park saying "No Metal Detectors" I detect the park. I use the EZ-Dig-R and pocket uniprobe and when done I leave anywhere from almost no sign, to no sign at all that I was there. I have had city park personel watch me then leave with out ever saying a word when they saw I was leaving no holes or signs I had dug.......

I always leave a few pieces of old rusty nails, glass and metal in my recovery pouch to show if someone asks....

 

[lisfisher]

I've witnessed quite a few times where an "authoritiy" came up to me and said that isn't allowed here. Fact is, many of these authoritive figures take it upon themselves and "assume" that md isn't alowed.I've taken things further and went to the town hall and everyone seemed to be confused. That said, I think most towns don't even know if they have md laws in place although you may get lucky and find that ONE person that is on top of things.

 

[adh247]

Ohhhh GOD!! WHY IS EVERYONE TURNING THIS INTO A POLITICAL DEBATE? GET BACK TO THE TOPIC!!
For starters, Ray mentioned some lady came up to him, If she was a County Worker like he mentioned, Put her in her place, and let her know that you know what your current laws are in regards to metal detecting in parks, and that you appreciate the concern, and let her know she has her facts incorrect. In other words someone was trying to act above you Ray, and i wouldnt let them. you made a great point... show me the sign where it says it is prohibited!!! (Its like old people acting like they have Gang Turf!)

I live in Cape Canaveral, and i have to give you credit for being so nice.... YOU KNOW that you know the rules! Dont let some old bitchh act like she owns the park more than you do..... and stand up for us MD'ers and tell her what makes her think that she has the ability to tell you that you are not allowed to do what you have ALWAYS done, knowing that its perfectly legal, and she is trying to boss you around, It doesnt matter if she WORKS for the county/parks. If that is the case, Its sad you know more about her job than she does! People like her piss me off!! And so do people that try to turn everything into politics and rules and debates!!!

~TH~

 

[ronald99]

Well it all depends on how you look at it.

Brevard County ORDINANCE NO. 96 31
Section 28. Removal of natural resources. No person in any park or recreational facility
shall remove any beach sand, whether submerged or not, any soil, rock, stones, plants, wood, or other
materials, or make any excavation by tool, equipment, blasting or other means or agency.

You can see the ordinance at this site
http://www.brevardparks.com/facility/index.php#prohibit

But it does not say you cant have your metal detector and look around.

If you get a good hit, look and see if your finger can locate it.