Spain has got its underwater cultural heritage back

[diggummup]

http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/02/28/inenglish/1330429830_730221.html
Do you know of any good Museums in Florida? Put in a Request.
Some of you will be eating your own words when Spain starts sharing them with North and south America
Ossy

Time will tell and it wouldn't be the first time i've eaten crow. Personally though, I would have rather had the chance to own one.

 

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[Trembull]

Go Figure

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/02/28/inenglish/1330429830_730221.html
Do you know of any good Museums in Florida? Put in a Request.
Some of you will be eating your own words when Spain starts sharing them with North and south America
Ossy

Time will tell and it wouldn't be the first time i've eaten crow. Personally though, I would have rather had the chance to own one.

http://www.newworldtreasures.com/bust-lima.htm
I paid $50 dollars for one, Brought in Australia. Personally they are not my favorites, the Pillar dollar is the nicest and are three to four times the price.
Cobs is were the treasure hunter can make his money, because they are all different.
Ossy

 

[VOC]

"Has more European and World trophies than all the English clubs put together"

That must be the only time in Spain’s history that they have ever managed to get any Silver by using their own efforts.

Shame they cannot play “the game” fairly when it comes to getting Silver by any other means other than football.

 

[diggummup]

http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/02/28/inenglish/1330429830_730221.html
Do you know of any good Museums in Florida? Put in a Request.
Some of you will be eating your own words when Spain starts sharing them with North and south America
Ossy

Time will tell and it wouldn't be the first time i've eaten crow. Personally though, I would have rather had the chance to own one.

http://www.newworldtreasures.com/bust-lima.htm
I paid $50 dollars for one, Brought in Australia. Personally they are not my favorites, the Pillar dollar is the nicest and are three to four times the price.
Cobs is were the treasure hunter can make his money, because they are all different.
Ossy

Yes, but they are not from the wreck of the Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes. Provenance means everything to me.

 

[Sue.My.Chin]

I've no idea how anyone can say the Mercedes' "treasure" should be returned to the South Americas.

Like it or not, the Spanish were in possession at the time of it's sinking. Though they weren't exactly pillars of moral purity, were they breaking any laws of the time? Were they doing something specifically worse than anyone else was or would have if they had the power? I don't think so...

Who are we to judge the actions of people who lived in a different time, under harder circumstances by the laws and moral stances of today? Even if we could objectively grade their crimes, we can't exactly start correcting all the mistakes of the past now, can we?

You could give them the Mercedes' cargo back in an attempt to right the theft but how do we right the other atrocities committed? Do we start locking up the ancestors of the Conquistadors for crimes committed by other people against other people?

I think we should judge the people of today by the laws we uphold. By that, the cargo of the Mercedes, if under orders of the Spanish government at the time of the sinking, should go to Spain. Odyssey should be reimbursed, and well, for their efforts and for the wrong doing of the Spanish Navy/Government post discovery of the Wreck.

To stop this happening in the future there should be international laws created which specifically dictate who gains possession of finds and fee's of recovery for any treasure/wrecks found in international waters and separately for waters governed by national jurisdiction. This could be a % to the salvagers, % to the country/persons in possession at the time of sinking (if applicable) and % to whoever own jurisdiction of the waters (if applicable). The Country/persons in possession could decide what artefacts they wish to claim and would have to compensate the "pot" which is to be divided up, to the agreed value of the artefacts.

Everything would then be clear. Salvagers could decide whether it's worth their while before getting embroiled in something like the Mercedes situation.

Ben

 

[Alexandre]

I've no idea how anyone can say the Mercedes' "treasure" should be returned to the South Americas.

Like it or not, the Spanish were in possession at the time of it's sinking. Though they weren't exactly pillars of moral purity, were they breaking any laws of the time? Were they doing something specifically worse than anyone else was or would have if they had the power? I don't think so...

Who are we to judge the actions of people who lived in a different time, under harder circumstances by the laws and moral stances of today? Even if we could objectively grade their crimes, we can't exactly start correcting all the mistakes of the past now, can we?

You could give them the Mercedes' cargo back in an attempt to right the theft but how do we right the other atrocities committed? Do we start locking up the ancestors of the Conquistadors for crimes committed by other people against other people?

I think we should judge the people of today by the laws we uphold. By that, the cargo of the Mercedes, if under orders of the Spanish government at the time of the sinking, should go to Spain. Odyssey should be reimbursed, and well, for their efforts and for the wrong doing of the Spanish Navy/Government post discovery of the Wreck.

Best lines I have read here in months. Thanks, Ben.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Ben,
I just say for the first portion of the post that two wrongs don't make one right. It always baffles me when people start using other's wrongs to justify theirs. Also we are talking about a "sovereign nation, not ancestors of individuals.


But enough of that dead horse....

There are defined laws on the books for such a case, but this case is just one prime example of why/how many lawyers make a living.... by interpreting law to their client's circumstance and judges ignoring the written law.

The facts of the case are pure and simple.

The politics of it were not.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

So tell me AU ,how would have Odyssey winning made it all better Looking for excuses to keep the treasure
They Stole it so We Should Steal it Back, and keep it for ourselves. Very moral argument.
I also agree on Ben's comments.
Ossy

 

[capt dom]

shlit, or somebodies full of it!

 

[Au_Dreamers]

So tell me AU ,how would have Odyssey winning made it all better Looking for excuses to keep the treasure
They Stole it so We Should Steal it Back, and keep it for ourselves. Very moral argument.
I also agree on Ben's comments.
Ossy

MABO- have you been drinking?

I'm not saying they (Spain) stole it so OM should steal it back. What I'm saying is the attempts to clear Spain of their historical past by saying other countries did those things two is kindergarden playground talk. I think that's what I've always said!

Again,
The facts of the case are pure and simple.

The politics of it were not.

 

[diggummup]

So tell me AU ,how would have Odyssey winning made it all better Looking for excuses to keep the treasure
They Stole it so We Should Steal it Back, and keep it for ourselves. Very moral argument.
I also agree on Ben's comments.
Ossy

You wanna talk about morality? I can ask you the same question. How does Spain getting it, make it all better? They aren't the ones that spent several million dollars to research and recover it (no surprise there). Anyone that believes politics weren't involved in this are dead wrong. And I'm not talking about that peon judge Thomas neither. He was told how to decide on this case, believe that.

 

[VOC]

"To stop this happening in the future there should be international laws created which specifically dictate who gains possession of finds and fee's of recovery"

There is Ben, Odyssey plaid by the rules and followed the international laws to the letter. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_law#Salvage_and_treasure_salvage)

Unfortunately Spain will not play by the international rules.

Their use of corrupt pollutions on both sides of the Atlantic, together with a week judicial system in the USA has allowed Spain to evade International law for the time being.

But the story is far from over yet !

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiIWLLHPzbM

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

So tell me AU ,how would have Odyssey winning made it all better Looking for excuses to keep the treasure
They Stole it so We Should Steal it Back, and keep it for ourselves. Very moral argument.
I also agree on Ben's comments.
Ossy

MABO- have you been drinking?

I'm not saying they (Spain) stole it so OM should steal it back. What I'm saying is the attempts to clear Spain of their historical past by saying other countries did those things two is kindergarden playground talk. I think that's what I've always said!

Again,
The facts of the case are pure and simple.

The politics of it were not.

Tennessee water only All I'm saying is your ancestors did exactly the same So what give you a higher moral ground
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

"To stop this happening in the future there should be international laws created which specifically dictate who gains possession of finds and fee's of recovery"

There is Ben, Odyssey plaid by the rules and followed the international laws to the letter.

Unfortunately Spain will not play by the international rules.

Their use of corrupt pollutions on both sides of the Atlantic, together with a week judicialsystem has allowed Spain to evade the International law for the time being.

But the story is far from over yet !

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiIWLLHPzbM

Odyssey proper-gander. It was the US that approached Spain not the other way around.
Ossy

 

[Au_Dreamers]

So tell me AU ,how would have Odyssey winning made it all better Looking for excuses to keep the treasure
They Stole it so We Should Steal it Back, and keep it for ourselves. Very moral argument.
I also agree on Ben's comments.
Ossy

MABO- have you been drinking?

I'm not saying they (Spain) stole it so OM should steal it back. What I'm saying is the attempts to clear Spain of their historical past by saying other countries did those things two is kindergarden playground talk. I think that's what I've always said!

Again,
The facts of the case are pure and simple.

The politics of it were not.

Tennessee water only All I'm saying is your ancestors did exactly the same So what give you a higher moral ground
Ossy

I hear that Tennessee water is bad for you!! Or are you drinking Jack?

I think I had this response once before to some other over zealous poster--- you have no idea what MY ancestors did....

You should reread my post and then realize that you responded without comprehending it!

-Cheers

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

So tell me AU ,how would have Odyssey winning made it all better Looking for excuses to keep the treasure
They Stole it so We Should Steal it Back, and keep it for ourselves. Very moral argument.
I also agree on Ben's comments.
Ossy

MABO- have you been drinking?

I'm not saying they (Spain) stole it so OM should steal it back. What I'm saying is the attempts to clear Spain of their historical past by saying other countries did those things two is kindergarden playground talk. I think that's what I've always said!

Again,
The facts of the case are pure and simple.

The politics of it were not.

Tennessee water only All I'm saying is your ancestors did exactly the same So what give you a higher moral ground
Ossy

I hear that Tennessee water is bad for you!! Or are you drinking Jack?

I think I had this response once before to some other over zealous poster--- you have no idea what MY ancestors did....

You should reread my post and then realize that you responded without comprehending it!

-Cheers

Yes lets stick to the real facts. Tennessee moon shine is good for you
Ossy

 

[Sue.My.Chin]

Ben,
I just say for the first portion of the post that two wrongs don't make one right. It always baffles me when people start using other's wrongs to justify theirs. Also we are talking about a "sovereign nation, not ancestors of individuals.

I totally agree with that. I wasn't arguing two wrongs make a right, more that the crimes they were committing back then aren't the crimes they are now. This was the done thing. I'm not trying to play it down but in 200 years time, people could look back at us and disagree with our actions. I'd hate to think there'll be feuds between nations because we're breaking laws now that wont even be passed for another 100+ years.

If you consider that rightly or wrongly, as from the time it was shipped onto the boat, it belonged to Spain, taking what is either thus property of Spain and/or OM to give back to the South Americas would almost be a second wrong. You took my money, so 400 years later I'm going to take it back.

The sovereign nations still exist and don't go on the same way, therefore you can only attribute blame to the individuals in power at the time. The nations were ran by groups of people and individuals, the individuals running the colonies, enslaving & murdering the indigenous populace. It's to these people we must apportion the blame, not the nation itself.

"To stop this happening in the future there should be international laws created which specifically dictate who gains possession of finds and fee's of recovery"

There is Ben, Odyssey plaid by the rules and followed the international laws to the letter. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_law#Salvage_and_treasure_salvage)

Unfortunately Spain will not play by the international rules.

Yes, I realise there are current laws covering this but to my admittedly unqualified mind, they seem very long winded and the whole court process/contracts procedure seems unnecessary. Surely a fixed % ruling would take away the long delays both salvager and the owner of the property must suffer as it stands. If the reward is not enough to the salvager, then allow the owner of the property right to offer to cover the costs of the salvage or something.

Also, I may be mistaken here but wasn't the Mercedes working for the sovereign state of Spain (though some of it's cargo was private owned) at the time when she sunk? Wouldn't that give her (or a portion of it's cargo) immunity from certain salvaging laws?

I'll add that I have no bias as a Briton. In fact, we sunk her so perhaps I do have reason to acquit the people of yore.

Ben

 

[Au_Dreamers]

What I was saying is that the written law is precise and clear cut, but like any law, one with enough money can hire a lawyer and challenge it.

The law of finds and the law of salvage are as old as the Mercedes wreck....

Again, factually, no, the Mercedes was on a commercial mission therefore according to written law was not immune from salvage.

 

[Sue.My.Chin]

What I was saying is that the written law is precise and clear cut, but like any law, one with enough money can hire a lawyer and challenge it.

The law of finds and the law of salvage are as old as the Mercedes wreck....

Again, factually, no, the Mercedes was on a commercial mission therefore according to written law was not immune from salvage.

Thank you for clearing that up. Are there any reasons why the Mercedes would be exempt? If not, then Spain are part of the UN and should follow the same laws as everyone else. I sincerely hope that justice is done either way.