Spain suing Odyssey...

[Cablava]

Darren I assume you are addressing my posts.

Odyssey is a very public company and uses the media to drive their stock just as most PLC’s do. We in a very small world of treasure hunting are more aware of what is said and inferred by Odyssey and its opposition, there are lots of other speculators out there who probably have invested and are not watching the day to day goings on and general scuttlebutt that we all read or listen to (they maybe in a better position who knows). For me there are two side of the story, and we will not hear all until it has been through many lawyers and cost a fortune, and remember it all comes off the bottom line company cash flow. But its very clear to me that things have not been done in accordance of the general scheme of things.

Odyssey is the pro-ported state of the art treasure ship hunter and salvager and are in the public eye all the time. So whatever they do will affect you, me and the other guys that either work or play in this business. So I get pissed when they muddy the waters for the rest of us. Such a fantastic find and what was most probably an easy recovery as they seem to have just waved a magic wand and here is your treasure. Then abandoned their partners after many years and lots of cash spent on the Sussex trail and used the imminent publicity to swap to the NASDAQ board (this was surely planned timing). It shows no fiber, they are not just a few guys in a rubber boat who found a bit of treasure and ran home with it, they are a Public company that can change things in the TH world but is seems that it will be for the worst at least for the rest of us.

I have looked very carefully from both sides but I have failed to see anything positive about their actions except that they have discovered a really fantastic treasure, and are going to pay lots of money to maybe get to keep some of it.

When next their vessels venture near another country’s waters they will find it much more difficult to work. As will me and anyone else, it’s not all about the stock price. Anyone planning and adventure underwater either in International waters of Territorial waters is going to find it a whole lot harder to do.

 

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[Amona]

Greeting Cablava

I agree with everything you had posted here,honestly you're one of the fews guy here in this forum which I give merits and honors for your words.

Regards
Amona

 

[Darren in NC]

Cablava, I wasn't "targeting" anyone in particular - there are several who post and either doubt Odyssey or outright blast them. I guess I'm confused as to why. Why is Odyssey the bad guy? They claim to have found this wreck in int'l waters. Period. What jurisdiction does Spain have over a merchant vessel found there? Seems to me that Spain is the one stirring up trouble for thunters, not Odyssey.

 

[jeff k]

Cablava... What makes you think Odyssey abandoned the Sussex project? They've been patiently waiting for the Spanish to appoint their archaeologists, but they kept giving excuses. Did you expect their ships to sit in port forever? No, they went out and did some work in the meantime, because they are paying two crews. That's called managing your assets. To have them sit in port waiting for the Spanish to get their act together would have been fiscally irresponsible.

 

[psdiver]

http://www.gibfocus.gi/details_headlines.php?id=1567

Ocean Alert free to leave


gibfocus - 17th July 2007
(2007-07-17 08:00:00 )





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Although the Odyssey Marine Exploration vessel had as yet not left yesterday evening, Spanish official sources have indicated that the vessel is free to leave when it wants.

The news came after the completion of a search and detention of the vessel last week which has led to complaints over the way the Spanish authorities ordered the vessel into port whilst in international waters.

Whilst Spain claims that the actions took place within their territorial waters, the US company and British Government have made formal representations claiming that the operation was conducted in international waters.

The vessel is expected to leave today from the port of Algeciras. Spanish reports claim that the British Government has asked the US company to also, voluntarily, send the Odyssey Explorer, its other vessel, to be inspected. However, there are no official indictations that this request has as yet been made, although it is expected that the Spanish authorities could also detain the Explorer as it leave Gibraltar.

Andalucian Government representative Juan José López Garzón, yesterday claimed that the search of the Alert had not resulted in any significant changes. Adding that the investigation was still ongoing and the case was still open.

 

[jeff k]

Odyssey Survey Vessel Completes Inspection and is Cleared to Depart Spanish Port
Tuesday July 17, 9:38 am ET


TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc.'s (NASDAQ:OMEX - News) survey vessel, the Ocean Alert, was cleared for departure by the Spanish Guardia Civil on Saturday, July 14; however, because of a need to replace required paperwork that was removed from the ship's bridge during the inspection and a holiday that found authorities unavailable to provide documentation required for departure, the ship has not yet departed. The ship had been detained in the Spanish port of Algeciras since Thursday, July 12, 2007, undergoing a thorough inspection by the Guardia Civil.

"We were confident that an inspection by the Guardia Civil would not reveal any evidence of alleged activities in the area as we have always acted legally and have consistently communicated our movements in the area to the Guardia Civil and marine traffic authorities," said Greg Stemm, Co-founder of Odyssey Marine Exploration. "We are pleased to have the ship released so we can put it back to work on other shipwreck projects."

The search and detention was apparently conducted as a result of a court order to look for evidence that Odyssey's recent "Black Swan" discovery was made in Spanish waters, in spite of the fact that the Spanish Ministry of Culture has stated publicly that they are now satisfied that artifacts from the "Black Swan" were not recovered from Spanish waters. Odyssey has repeatedly stated that the "Black Swan" recovery was conducted in the Atlantic Ocean outside of any country's territorial waters or contiguous zone. The Company has also stated that the site has not been conclusively identified and once it is identified, Odyssey will notify any potential claimants.

Odyssey recently provided a 109-page legal affidavit to authorities in the Spanish Federal government, the Junta de Andalucia, the United Kingdom, Gibraltar, and the United States detailing Odyssey's activities leading up to, and after, the announcement of the "Black Swan" discovery. This document (which covered nine years of communications and meetings between Odyssey, the Junta of Andalucia and the governments of the United States, the United Kingdom and Spain) was provided in order to address questions posed by the Spanish regarding Odyssey's activities and to reassure all concerned governments and officials that Odyssey has always acted legally and with full transparency in relation to the "Black Swan" project and in all other shipwreck exploration activities.

 

[hmmm]

I rember a post about a squatter, living on a piece of property that was owned by another. lets say the owner traveled to this place, he did his research, found a piece, with a swamp and a few old growth cmt's. and a 200 year old home stead. he left with this image in his head , then he planned for his retirement home. he spent the next 20 years, paying the local government's taxes and planing his homestead. someone moves in and does not tell the owner, they see where they can do improvements, first the get rid of the cmts, they drain the swamp and kill of the noisey red legged frogs. they create a beautiful garden, then they smash down the old house and build a new one.
Then the owner , believing he is coming back to a little piece pf land that mother nature has been the only occupant .  See's his new retirement home and is slapped with the offences committed by these tresspassers. who gets busted.?

I saw a picture of one of the coins and did some reserch on the date , have a look at what i found, it could give some insite into the un circulated coins.

"The seventeenth century also saw the establishment of widespread trade between Europe and New Spain. In addition to the trade routes between the Mexican continent, the Caribbean islands, and Spain, trade routes opened on Mexico West coast which allowed trade with China and Japan. The port city of Acapulco was a center for trade with the orient and in 1616 Fort San Diego was established to protect the port. Spain had become the greatest economic power in the world due primarily to the trade opportunities that the conquest of the New World had provided for them. Consequently, the Spanish merchant class grew to be among the most powerful in the new colony.

Spain quickly spread across the continent, establishing cities on locations already occupied by native cities. Oaxaca, Manzanillo, Queretaro, Taxco, and various cities on the Yucatan Peninsula were conquered and subsequently settled by the Spanish. In addition, new cities were established in areas of strategic or economic importance, the most influential of which is Guadalajara. Spanish influence and settlement quickly spread northward and the regions that are modern day Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California were settled.

Christianity spread across the New World as quickly as Spanish influence did, in every city the town cathedral was among the first structures built. The new cathedral in Mexico city was begun in 1616 and was constructed in several phases, the last of which was completed in 1813 with the addition of its baroque style dome. Unfortunately, along with the spread of Christianity came the spread of the Spanish enforcement of Christian ideals in the form of the Inquisition. The Inquisition would inevitably remove any people troublesome to the spread of Christianity. Though the natives were supposed to be exempt of the Inquisition, any native that posed a particular threat to Christianity’s spread would often find themselves at the Inquisition’s mercy"

 

[spez401]

hmmmm

I posted that hypothetical about the "squatter" and adverse possession. If you re-read it, you'll see that the point of the hypothetical is to show that it is a complicated issue, based on the law and facts, and that both parties MAY have an interest in the property. Your hypothetical has no clear answer either (you'd need to have a lot more facts to get an answer).

The same is true with the present case. It is entirely dependant upon the facts (ie, where the wreck is found, who were the legal owners, what country did it sail out of, etc) and the law (international salvage law, property rights, etc.).

Jeff...
I think I saw in your post that the Spanish Minister(?) has publicly stated that the artifacts didn't come from a spanish wreck. Has that been confirmed yet? Does this then mean that Spain will be dismissing their claims against OMEX (at least until the ship is positively identified)?

steve

 

[jeff k]

Steve... The former Minister of Culture said that they believed the coins came from a Spanish flagged ship in intl. waters. As far as I know they never saw any artifacts yet.

 

[centroeuropa]

Look at this video

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=usJ4gI6FLTA
For some press articles in PDF format http://www.centroeu.com/cultura/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=309

 

[spez401]

SWR posted that youtube link already... What does the article say? It's in spanish... do you have a translation?

Jeff... thanks for the info

steve

 

[Amona]

Centroeuropa

This video:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=usJ4gI6FLTA

it's "SUPER GREAT",....congra.!! I used to video shooting as a freelance and I liked how you edited it, anyway, I had on mind to make the same video but you was the first one, you're in Spain or Europe, you got more resources than me.

Amona

 

[Cablava]

Amona

Thanks for the kind words, however I am not anyone’s side I am only trying to sort the wheat from the chaff. OMR may prove to be the winners in the end there is just not enough data to make a complete judgment at this time. But there’s a lot wrong with the way this has been carried out. I have a theory about this whole thing but am not willing to print it.

Jeff

Regarding the HMS Sussex. As far as I can see OMR have antagonized the party which was according to them were holding up the process, at least as far as the reports go, who knows what actually was going on. But even if Spain backs down they are very unlikely to co- operate in the future. And international waters will not be the same at the end of this.

I appreciate that your are much closer than most of us to OMR and I am not sure if you have privy information that we do not, If that is the case then you are debating from a stronger stand point and I may be just wasting everyone’s time with my observations, but its as I see it.

I should imagine that either Greg Stem or John Morris comes from a marketing background as it is apparent that OMR are strong in that area as seems to come from the front, they are milking the finds best as possible to support the stock and its new placing which is fine, however what’s holding the stock back is the way they have done it.

And of course if OMR had raised just $10,000.00 worth of treasure then the world could care less. But they have not, they have raised possibly the largest treasure find to date, so they are under the spotlight and any wrong moves will cost them dearly, and any other treasure finds in the future. What’s happening now with Spain is just the thin end of the wedge, there will be plenty more claimants regardless of International water or not. Ownership in salvage is a very debatable point.

As for asset management particularly floating plant I have plenty of experience, many times my daily costs were US$40,000.00 daily for the main lifts (crane barges, tugs, support craft) on top of my daily running costs of crew, berthing, food, agents fees, Air fares, clearances, fuel, lubes, shore power, stevedores, storage, transportation, visas, permits, maintenance, painting etc. etc. etc. I know lots about marine asset management. Once the prop stops turning on a vessel then the bills pour in, its incredible how a good profit can disappear once the weather steps in or any other factor's that hold up the job. Try clearing a barge out of a Middle Eastern port on a Friday that you are desparately waiting for regardless of what the rest of the plant is costing offshore. Or waiting for fresh water that turns out to be brackish and keeps the ship in port for another 6 days while clean water is found, (you still have to pay for the crap water plus the loss of the water already in the tanks).
The last ship I was using was 265 ft long and cost just about the same as the Odyssey Explorer to operate. I had it in port for 6 months on a fit out you cannot imagine the attached cost let alone the fit out costs.
I have not kept track of how long the OMR ships have been tied up to the wall but of memory it seems too long to be cost effective at least in the last six months. And maybe with a third ship and crew on charter? Of course if they get an award in their favor then it does not matter.

 

[centroeuropa]

Te essential about Odyssey

Hi, i cannot translate all the articles i wrote the last 2 months, but in those image who contains 1, 2 or 3 daily possitions for Odyssey Explorer in February and March you can get some evidency about where they were... and you can ask yourself if it is worth to lose time and money simply wandering between 12 and 24 NM from Spain. I obviously was based on private information, that minds i didnt expent the whole day controlling OE positions, so i have only 1, 2 or 3 possitions/day: that was the work (to control) of other persons, and Odyssey knew they WILL not make this work. Why is another question, for the answer you can take some time to read those articles. Cheers,

 

[Amona]

BINGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


Odyseey,..you don't have excuse this time, we got you!

Amona


steve,....you have to see that!!

 

[spez401]

I don't think anyone ever said that OMEX wasn't near spain in the last year... It has already been shown that they have. Amona, do you think that these coordinates are some smoking gun that proves OMEX has done something illegal? Is there any proof that this was when the coins were pulled? where the wreck was found? Are you disregarding the article that Jeff posted that said the minister of culture(?) has said the coins didn't come from a spanish wreck?

Until an official statement is released by OMEX, Spain, or the courts, it is still speculation.

steve

 

[ivan salis]

the things in question are ---is the ship "spanish"?---if its the royal merchant --the answer is NO --the ship is ENGLISH (carrying "cargo" for spain yes but a ENGLISH ship none the less) so the normal salvage laws that applies to salvage is the "ships" home country(england)---not the country who's cargo it was hauling at the time of its loss (spain)---

another thing in question is where was the ship at that the coins were recovered from ?
if it was indeed the royal merchant her reported area of loss was off the english coast far from spain's territorial waters so theres no "conflict" there.

there are very few wrecks that would have the massive amount of coins thay odyssey reported finding -- simply put ----there are not that many "mega rich" wrecks out there---there are many good ones but not in the "mega wreck" class---logic tells you with so many coins found --it must be a "mega wreck"---and there simply aren't that many ---a small amount of decent research cuts way down on the possible wrecks that it could be----thats why I predict it to be the merchant royal----but of course we will have to wait and see---if it is I predict no problems for odyssey---(except that spain may be miffed at not getting a "peice" of the pie and thus will give odyssey a hard time on the up coming sussex project) Ivan

 

[Salvor6]

The area that centroeuropa shows on his map is exactly where Odyssey dumped that treasure chest for Volvo.

 

[ivan salis]

you don't say---hummm ---Ivan

 

[Jeffro]

BINGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


Odyseey,..you don't have excuse this time, we got you!

Amona


steve,....you have to see that!!

The area that centroeuropa shows on his map is exactly where Odyssey dumped that treasure chest for Volvo.

They may have an excuse after all, eh?