Spain suing Odyssey...

[ScubaDude]

When can this thread return to a descent intelligence level, that until the true facts come out in something other than national enquirer they aren't relavant, it is someone else's rumor and speculation. Yes some here may have some a few more facts than others, at this point enough of them are not public info to speculate. It will all come out in a trial that will take place. Insults are being subtly, and not so subtly thrown back and forth and it is not constructive. I am not trying to insult anyone, I appreciate the constructive posts, and press releases.

I as recall most people on this forum are swinging a MD, most of the folks here are looking for things that Spain decided to remove from the new world. Some seek pirate treasures thinking that that makes them different because they weren't on a Spanish ship and that makes it okay. Others see anything in international waters as fair game, with maybe giving the original owners a fair cut in line with conventional salvage rewards, something like 10%. I say if you lost it 200 - 400 years ago its fair game. We need to stop arguing and holding grudges about something someone did 400 years ago, yes nations did some barbaric things back then, truth is, some are today. The point of this forum is the stuff was lost, lets go find it, bring the history to the table and the public, and reward the finders accordingly. No federal government has the resources to do it on its own, let the private sector do it. That being said the work needs to be done with respect to proper archaeological practices and not via snatch and grab.

Please drop the personal bickering, and get back on the topic.

Odyssey, I hope did things as by the book as they knew how. Long story short they pulled off something that many of of wish we could do. Kudos to the crew for finding a valuable target, documenting it, and recovering it in several thousand feet of water. May they enjoy their time off. There aren't too many other people or organizations in the world right now with the capability of doing what they've accomplished. If you have a personal beef with em, get over it. If they screwed up it will come out.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

DR.ÖTEK Metal Detector, Waterproof Gold Detector, Pinpoint & Terrain Modes, Professional Metal Detector - Grab it through Amazon!

[rgecy]

I concur!

 

[Jeffro]

Ditto!

This thread has been interesting so far, lets see where it leads.

 

[hmmm]

"The point of this forum is the stuff was lost, lets go find it, bring the history to the table and the public, and reward the finders accordingly. No federal government has the resources to do it on its own, let the private sector do it. That being said the work needs to be done with respect to proper archaeological practices and not via snatch and grab."
This is a very good point, in canada after a boat sinks it is labled a herritage object after about 2 years. i'll have to re check that. that means, all wrecks are to be hidden under the sands. romovel or disterbing it is a offence.
the important thing here is the origin of the coins, if they are un circulated, thats important. it means they where minted in america.
i cant find the picture of the doyssey coin, but this is a good read. 1616 to 1618.
http://home.earthlink.net/~trolleyfan/isle.html

 

[jeff k]

Herald Tribune...

http://www.iht.com:80/articles/ap/2007/07/19/america/NA-GEN-US-Spain-Treasure-Ship.php

 

[Cablava]

There is some talk on other forums that there is no wreck, just a pile of money on the sea bed. That would pose some interesting questions about ownership.

 

[Jeffro]

Now that does bring up an interesting twist. Since its all speculation at this point anyways, what if there is no ship to attach the coins to? Odyssey may not have released the name because there isn't one!

 

[Amona]

Now that does bring up an interesting twist. Since its all speculation at this point anyways, what if there is no ship to attach the coins to? Odyssey may not have released the name because there isn't one

but the coins are spanish.

Amona

 

[spez401]

amona, if jeff's earlier post of one of the news articles is correct, spain's minister stated that the coins were not from a spanish ship. wouldn't that mean that they might not be spanish either?

 

[jeff k]

Steve... She said that they thought it was a Spanish flagged ship, but in intl. waters. Odyssey said that they haven't found any wreck site, just piles of coins. That's why they're having a hard time identifying the ship.

 

[psdiver]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/20/AR2007072000243.html

Ship Leaves Spain Amid Treasure Tussle

By MITCH STACY
The Associated Press
Friday, July 20, 2007; 4:46 AM

TAMPA, Fla. -- A ship belonging to Florida deep-sea explorers has left Spanish waters, ending the latest round in an increasingly nasty dispute with that nation's government over the rights to a vast sunken treasure.

Odyssey Marine Exploration's ship chugged out of Spanish waters Thursday, a day after Spanish authorities released the vessel. They seized the ship July 12 after it left British-controlled Gibraltar to search the vessel for clues as to the origins of an estimated $500 million in silver coins and other artifacts salvaged from a still undisclosed shipwreck.


The seizure of the 240-foot Ocean Alert culminated months of tense talks between Odyssey officials and the Spanish government, detailed in a 109-page affidavit the company prepared for Spain's Culture Ministry. Odyssey provided a copy of the document to The Associated Press.

"It's been very frustrating for everyone," said Aladar Nesser, Odyssey's director of international relations, who is trying to determine if the company's other ship, Odyssey Explorer, will be allowed to leave British-controlled Gibraltar without interference from Spain.

At the heart of the dispute is Spain's claim that it has a right to share in the treasure if it was recovered in territorial waters or is connected to the nation's heritage in any way.

Citing security and other concerns, Odyssey will not disclose the location of the shipwreck, code-named "Black Swan." The company says it's not yet sure of the identity of the sunken ship, which yielded 17 tons of coins that were flown to the United States in May.

The secrecy has contributed to a growing mistrust of the Tampa-based company among some in the Spanish government, a sentiment that has been fanned by the country's media.

"Spain has reason to believe Odyssey has recovered Spanish property without authorization," said James A. Goold, an attorney who filed a claim in U.S. federal court on behalf of Spain.

Odyssey co-founder Greg Stemm said he resents the company's growing reputation as modern-day pirates.

The company, he said, has "bent over backward" to communicate with the Spanish and other governments about its movements and treasure searches. And Odyssey has gone to U.S. federal court to seek exclusive rights to suspected wreck sites so anyone in the world with a potential claim would have a proper venue.

"That's the great irony," Stemm said. "How much more straightforward can you be than turning over the site to the U.S. federal court and following U.S. federal court orders? Does that really sound like piracy to you?"

In Odyssey's affidavit, Stemm noted that Spanish authorities last year declined the company's invitation to be part of pending search and salvage projects that could yield riches and have cultural significance to the nation.


But two weeks after Odyssey made headlines with news of the "Black Swan" treasure, Spain filed a claim in federal court in Tampa and has tried to force the company to disclose more details. That could happen as early as Monday, when Odyssey's next court filing is due.

Culture Ministry spokeswoman Diana Lara said Thursday that Spain's next legal move will depend on what Odyssey reveals in court.





Even if another country or party is able to prove a claim to the shipwreck and its cargo, Odyssey said it would apply for a salvage award in U.S. federal court, which has jurisdiction over admiralty cases. In similar cases, salvage companies are usually awarded a large percentage of the recovery.

Some experts believe Odyssey found the wreck of the Merchant Royal, a British ship loaded with tons of Spanish coins that sank off the southwestern tip of England in 1641. The company received exclusive salvage rights to a wreck site in the area where the Merchant Royal is believed to have gone down.

But Spanish officials say circumstantial evidence indicates otherwise. Odyssey acknowledges operating near Spanish waters this year, searching for another undisclosed wreck in international waters with the full knowledge of the government, according to the affidavit.

In March, before the "Black Swan" story broke, Spanish officials gave Odyssey permission to resume its search for the wreck of a British vessel, the HMS Sussex, in the western Mediterranean Sea.

Despite Odyssey's emphatic statements to the contrary, some in Spain believe the "Black Swan" treasure came from the Sussex, which was leading a British fleet into the Mediterranean for a war against France in 1694 when it sank in a storm off Gibraltar.

Spanish media reported that Odyssey operated in the region in March, but Odyssey said it was there only to sink a prop treasure chest as a part of a contest promotion connected to Disney's movie, "Pirates of Caribbean: At World's End."

Stemm said the company typically uses Gibraltar, a British territory on the southern tip of Spain, as a base for any of its operations in that part of the world.

 

[Amona]

The company, he said, has "bent over backward" to communicate with the Spanish and other governments about its movements and treasure searches. And Odyssey has gone to U.S. federal court to seek exclusive rights to suspected wreck sites so anyone in the world with a potential claim would have a proper venue.

"That's the great irony," Stemm said. "How much more straightforward can you be than turning over the site to the U.S. federal court and following U.S. federal court orders? Does that really sound like piracy to you?"

For me is 'Piracy' and 'Dirty Games', like rice and beans with salads.

Amona

 

[hmmm]

"There is some talk on other forums that there is no wreck, just a pile of money on the sea bed. That would pose some interesting questions about ownership."
hm
This would mean, some one dumped the pile over board. I do recal, at one point drake had so much silver, his ship was sinking.
He was not stupid ,he would have dumped it befor making the trip home. hummm
If there is one thing i have learned about coins , the dates they where minted, tells a story.

 

[spez401]

hmmm,

I've heard that other forums are saying that as well. Are they doing the same as us and speculating on every aspect of this find? I usually don't check out other forums, but was wondering if it was just speculation on the coins, or if there was something more concrete that maybe we missed.

steve

 

[lucky1777]

OK, I have been following this for quite a while know. I am confused by some people on here. As far as I have been able to conclude, is that Odyssey has followed all the correct procedures. They are not wanting to give the location of the site, because other people or countries might try and rob from it. There is only speculation that they committed anything illegal. Am I following this right or did I miss something?

 

[spez401]

Lucky

you are pretty much right. I think the biggest thing people have a problem with is how the recovery was made... It kinda looks like OMEX did a smash and grab... took everything and then spirited it away in the dark before anyone could know about it or stop it. Most of the people who think this also believe that since what they did was "shady" they must have something to hide... and therefore they must have stolen the treaure, it is in Spainish waters, they have no claim to it, etc.

The simple fact is... we don't know. It looks like everything was done legally - the claims were filed in federal court, export licenses obtained, etc... but the way it was executed seems to some like it was done wrong (putting 17 tons of coins on a plane and flying them to the US). So, there is a lot of speculation and the only thing we all know for sure (forgive me if i put words in anyone's mouth) is "We don't know"

steve

 

[rgecy]

Lucky

you are pretty much right. I think the biggest thing people have a problem with is how the recovery was made... It kinda looks like OMEX did a smash and grab... took everything and then spirited it away in the dark before anyone could know about it or stop it. Most of the people who think this also believe that since what they did was "shady" they must have something to hide... and therefore they must have stolen the treasure, it is in Spanish waters, they have no claim to it, etc.

The simple fact is... we don't know. It looks like everything was done legally - the claims were filed in federal court, export licenses obtained, etc... but the way it was executed seems to some like it was done wrong (putting 17 tons of coins on a plane and flying them to the US). So, there is a lot of speculation and the only thing we all know for sure (forgive me if i put words in anyone's mouth) is "We don't know"

Steve

All the ones against this find have no evidence other than the hyped up negative media speculation, which of course the media wants Odyssey to fail. Until the court documents are released, everything is just speculation.

I don't have any stake in Odyssey, so if they fail, it doesn't mean diddly to me. I just hope they did the right thing so they don't give this industry a "Black Eye" and screw things up for the rest of us. The bottom line is, I don't know, and neither does anyone else on this board!

With Odyssey's past projects they have show great care in documenting and handling the artifacts they find. I trust they did the same here.

Has anyone given thought to the fact that Odyssey released this information knowing there would be lots of publicity. This certainly would draw attention to the find and increase any sales associated with the coins and artifacts. And as was mentioned before, it also coincided with the change of the stock symbol to the NASDAQ.

Hmmm! Maybe they are smarter than we think!

 

[spez401]

Robert,

I think the media release is one of the things that some have pointed to as evidence of OMEX's "shady practices"... There is the whole argument that Stemm and Co, were involved with another company that violated the SEC prohibitions on "stock inflation". Even though they were exonerated, the company entered into a plea with the government, so many think that they must in fact be guilty.

I agree with you. I hope they did everything right, because if they didn't they will give your industry a big black eye. But you're right... nobody knows, and we aren't likely to find out in the near future either

steve

 

[hmmm]

Cablava, could you point out these other forums?
I tried to find the 1616 coin that was photographed but it still eludes me. it was similar to this dutch coin.
http://lakdiva.org/coins/netherlands/1616_tran_lion_daalder_ag.html

 

[Cablava]

Hmmm

You can look at this site, but do not expect to be welcome if you decide to post, there are some very childish people on the site. Other than that there is a lot of information passed, most of course is speculation. It is dedicated to OMR so there are lots of differing opinions.

http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_(A_to_Z)/Stocks_O/messagesview?bn=25329&vmode=1

This site has some opinions from the Archies on many subjects

http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A1=ind0705&L=britarch

And here another one

lists.asu.edu/archives/sub-arch

You have to search (usually for Black Swan) for what you want as Odyssey is not the only subject in the world and quite frankly most people are just waiting for information before the next round of pin the tail on the donkey.

Have an open mind it helps, who ever you think is right, there is always more to the story than you think. And this one looks like going a long time.