spainish molds for gold bars

[the blindbowman]

i dont know much about this ,but i would like to know if anyone has picture of those types of molds . i would say early 1500's

 

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[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Don't really know anything about this picture.....a friend sent it to me. It may not be Spanish, may not be old, and may just be something someone made up in their backyard. There was also a picture of some ingots. I assume they were found in the same place as the mold......assuming it's legit'.

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

part of a common brick and a bar tender . whats next ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

Your last post to Bowman seems a bit harsh. It almost seems like...."uncanny crap".

At times, there is nothing else left to say except for the plain, unvarnished, painful truth.

When those times come, you may loose friends, wives, family, acquaintances and even your priest, but you will never loose your dog. Dogs have a nose for the truth and will sniff it out, usually bringing their favorite toy and laying it at your feet. That assumes you are not telling a lie, in which case they will pi$$ on your leg.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

Not being able to mind my own business, I have often been castigated for making the same kind of comments that you have made.......even by you. You can read back in my posts to Bowman, where I tried to suggest the same caution that you have, only not so directly.

As you well know.....no good deed will go unpunished.

Having said all that, I agree with you......completely. I doubt Bowman will take this in the spirit it is being offered. I have seen the same attitude many times over the years. There will be no reality bolt coming out of the sky to enlighten the man. He will follow his vision to it's final resting place. That place.....usually, is also the final resting place of his last dollar. It can and has been worse, for some.

Bowman's posts have been so far beyond any semblance of rational thought progression, that I have often felt he is just doing all of this for a laugh. I believe I have not been alone in this possible conclusion, but others are reluctant to voice their opinions.

If he is serious, and I believe he is, perhaps the best thing to do is just say....good luck and good hunting. In that way we can avoid the condemnation of folks like BC.

Final thought: If you are boating in the middle of a lake and see someone thrashing about in the water, do you assume they are out for a new distance swimming record or do you throw them a lifeline? Bowman seems to be drowning in his vision.

Now this post qualifies as "uncanny crap". Just wanted to make sure that the next time such a critter lopes by, you will recognize it for what it is......maybe.

Take care,

Joe

I tell ya, Bob, It's just one more canyon over.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Djuice: Could anyone ever tell you that your ideas and theories are wrong? I doubt it since you have unposted backup data which in your mind tends to prove to yourself that you are right, the same with me on Tayopa, or Bowman..

As for that picture of a supposed mould, yes, they did make them like that. After casting a Gold/Silver bar or two, the mould is quite well fired, the same as a brick, however in most cases, due to the rough texture, the mould was broken in removing the bar.. I am curious as to the dimensions of the mould? That is NOT a mould for making brick.

I have also seen them made out of charcoal, clay, and even depressions in the ground lined with ash.

When cargo space and weight is at a premium, one does not take along a metal mould since it isn't really necessary, you improvise on the spot..

Incidentally speaking of charcoal and old smelting processes, always check it with your detector since it is similar to a sponge in absorbing the Precious Metal vapors.

I accidentally found this out when I had a strong metal reaction from old smelter charcoal. Close examination with a lens showed that the porous tubes in the charcoal were lined with Silver or gold. In fact this a major method of absorbing the metals from a soloution I.E. Carbon extraction"..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[the blindbowman]

so no one has pictures of spainish ingot molds from around the 1500's ? that is the topic ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Are you saying my picture is not Spanish, and not from the1500s?

Joe

 

[Zephyr]

BB,

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/Sp-Gold.intro.html

Gold ingots
Along with cob coinage the mints also produced gold (and silver) ingots for export. The gold would be extracted from the ore at the mint by melting. Workers would then take a wooden box and fill it with wet sand. They would then ram an iron rod into the sand to form ingot sized holes in the wet sand at about three inches apart. A crucible was then used to pour the molten gold into the cavities. Once the gold was cooled the ingots were removed and hammer stamped with the mint mark and the royal seal to show that the twenty percent royal tax known as the Quinto, had been paid. Like the crude hammer struck cob coinage, this method of ingot bar production was an older technique used in the more primitive conditions of the New World. By the mid-seventeenth century much of Europe had moved to cast iron ingot molds that produced the familiar standard-sized rectangular bars. (...)

 

[the blindbowman]

BB,

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/Sp-Gold.intro.html

Gold ingots
Along with cob coinage the mints also produced gold (and silver) ingots for export. The gold would be extracted from the ore at the mint by melting. Workers would then take a wooden box and fill it with wet sand. They would then ram an iron rod into the sand to form ingot sized holes in the wet sand at about three inches apart. A crucible was then used to pour the molten gold into the cavities. Once the gold was cooled the ingots were removed and hammer stamped with the mint mark and the royal seal to show that the twenty percent royal tax known as the Quinto, had been paid. Like the crude hammer struck cob coinage, this method of ingot bar production was an older technique used in the more primitive conditions of the New World. By the mid-seventeenth century much of Europe had moved to cast iron ingot molds that produced the familiar standard-sized rectangular bars. (...)

,

thanks zephyr, but i have ready read this date and my question reflected this . how if you read the part on this page about the ingots . you get the idea in most cases the ingots were made by makeing wood boxes and filling them with sand and than makeing the inogts in the sand , this was the whole piont of my post before the two trolls started in ... as we all know it was most unlikely they took molds to the location . and there is in fact very lemited amonts of suitable wood in the area . that is why i ask about the large rock than have whole big enough to be filled with sand and than make a good size ingot , i can only guess about 2by2by 6 or some where in that size range ..the other thing is if they had used what god gave them and took note that there was 8 of these stone and 8 other dark spots that look like ask pits near the stones , they may have been able to help figer out why these things are in a circle and what the 18 on the rock in the medle of the circle was made for , was this some kind of way to mint 8 diffrent sizes or some way to mint a diffrent size of lable each days ingots for record keeping ....

if they could have gotten there heads out of their ass they may have noted there are no other stones in the area of this site of this size and shape in the area of this site ...and common sense would tell anyone that if this is the real site of the smelter it has more than enough evidence to add to the theory . for one it is near the tunnle , second it is 25 yards away from the vault area , third they is a man made trail between all of them.fourth it is often seen in smelter the stack or vent is very heavy made to counter the heat , it could explan the large size rock on top of the wall ...what if the mouth of the stone head i showed was in fact a mold it self . if they had looked they may have noted that the size and shape of the mouth of that stone head was very close to one half of a bell shape .......

i will be talking to the other members of expedition 3 today and telling them this is the last post or reply to be made at this site or any other site .....it is a real shame that this sites member can not share the expedition with us because of two trolls that could not find their ass with TP...


at this piont i thank Treasurenet and its other members ...i well take this kind of troll BS from anyother site on the web ,why put up with it here ...


to real de and oro , i stated i have undisputable evidence i did in fact not show it on any site for this same reason ....

you will read about my expedition in 2008 .. it was a pleasure to have know both of you ..real de and oro .....

some times we fail to see what others do . some times they are wrong about what they see , some times they are right !

sites 1,2,4,5 are all within 160 yards of each other ,,,with a good water sorce in the area .

we can prove with in a reasonable dout that the Gonzales -Ruth map pionts dirrectly to sites 1 and 5 ....and yes it is in fact undisputable evidence ...and that the peralta stones dirrectly piont to the same two sites ...

what others felt ment nothing had meaning ,there are miles and miles of desert and there is very little chance of anyone finding this area with out dirrectly haveing a good reason or a sighting to check this area ...

so i leave this site knowing more than i did when i came here and to me wisdom is formost ...if the Mods band me for this reply, i will still post my finding after i get my permits and my clam is legal.. take care and stay safe stay free ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Bowman,

"it is a real shame that this sites member can not share the expedition with us because of two trolls that could not find their ass with TP..."

I don't know who you are calling "trolls", but I don't live in a cave or underground. As you can see by the picture above, I have a nice comfortable home and well heeled friends in suits that often stop by to enjoy the amenities.

I posted that picture to encourage you to continue your quest for Aztec treasure.
Everything you see, including the lifestyle, was purchased with the proceeds of a rewarding lifetime of hunting for the LDM. If you are lucky, you can look forward to the same future.

Getting back to your topic, I posted a picture of an ingot mold. You seem to think it is less than impressive. T.T., who seems to have some experience in this field, kinda liked it.

You also mentioned a "smelter". Few people have ever found a "smelter" in the Superstitions, so your find is pretty important. The picture below is very close to your stuff, so I was wondering if it's the same. I assume you meant ash as opposed to the "ask" pits you mentioned. There was some wood available.

I do wish you continued success in your expeditions, and look forward to next years press releases.

Good luck and good hunting,

Joe

Can't show the molds, which were probably just depressions in the sand, but this stuff is still hangin in there.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Peeps: Just a suggestion, many smelters did not have a free standing chimney, but used the hill as the support.and as part of it. this was much easier to construct and was less conspicuous.

In the model shown, it used wood for the fuel, in a smelter they would use charcoal.. In any suspected smelter site some charcoal should be present It is very difficult to get rid of since the ** stuff must have a life of 20,000,000,000 years hehe.

Always check charcoal from an old smelter with a detector, many times it contains Precious metals which were absorbed in the vapor form..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning again: One thing that has never been brought up, smelting accessories and chemicals.

One doesn't just place a batch of hi-grade into the furnace and melt out gold & silver +, it requires other chemicals and materiel. If they are lacking, then you do not smelt. The Superstitions, being of volcanic origin, prob has some these in a basic form.

Lead is a normal basic requirement, when molten it acts as the agent to collect the molten droplets of Au, Ag, etc which collect at the bottom of a cone shaped mould. thus the highest grade concentration will be at the tip of the cone. This is freed from the rest of the melted rock, then mixed with suitable chemicals, depending upon the type of ore, resmelted and poured into moulds.

The basic smelting would be a type of Scorification in the field. this leaves a very impure bar, commonly called a Dore'. So check to see if you can find any evidence of lead being mined or in the smelter vicinity. Lead would be a sure sign of smelting.

I am attaching a few sheets from my old book on Assaying for your information..

Assaying cones would be perhaps 1" x .375", Smelting cones would be perhaps 18" x 12".

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[the blindbowman]

i am sorry for my reaction . i am not from AZ and i know very little about the history and the people of that area ...it dose not change the rare sighting ....

thank you real de .

i can see what looks like 3 of those bricked up areas at this site . but you out right no more about this kind of smelters than i do .

as the smelters in the north east are the free standing chimney type you were speaking of ...


that aside . here is why i ask the question in the frist place ,

the frist picture shows 3 evenly spaced whole cut or drilled into the rock wall face acrossed from the standing wall .

the second picture , we have no idea what it is yet , we dont even know if this object is right side up ! it looks to be man-made ....we have over 2 dozen pictures of objects like these in this area , objects unknown ...

 

[the blindbowman]

the second picture , we beleived at frist it was some kind of shadow . but that is not the case here . part is a shaodw and the rest is something that looks man made , we have picture of this object at diffrent times of the day and it is some kind or a object . the rocks behind it have shadows that cover the object in places yet the object is not part of the rock in the back ground . as we have been able to define what is shadow and what is the object .. we may not under stand what this object is untell expedition 3 ...

it is something what we have no idea ....any guess ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Looking at three of your last pictures, I could not make out a single detail. Do you reckon it's the camera or the cameraman?

I cleaned them up a little, and maybe someone else can find something in them. You have made a lot of statements about camera equipment, so I assume you know something about the subject. Why do you think it is, that none of your pictures are viewable?

Anyway, glad to see you changed your mind, and will hang with us awhile. It's a slow process, but we will all come to agree with you.....at some point.

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO Peps, apparently one of my earlier posts did not register so I will repost it for BBs' 'information. The old moulds were in many forms and sizes, only limited by your imagination. Generally they were rectangular in form, but in the case of non-precious metals they were often pie shaped for handling and shipment.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

C JUMPER: The picture that you posted appears more like a lime kiln for making mortar rather than a smelter, it is too large and does not show any sign of high temperatrue.

I might add that the Indians also used ovens similar to this to roast Mescal. Roasted Mescal is extremely high in the sugars and so is excellent for food as well as having a good fermentation = Mescal/ Tequila. It was in high demand for food and drink.

It has a flavor similar to dried apricots. I have often eaten it while riding my mule in the barrancas..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

T.T.,

Thanks for your input on the picture I posted. It is not a lime kiln. Other sites in the area suggest it was used to process ore.

"I might add that the Indians also used ovens similar to this to roast Mescal. Roasted Mescal is extremely high in the sugars and so is excellent for food as well as having a good fermentation = Mescal/ Tequila. It was in high demand for food and drink."

I can't speak for Indians in general, but the Apache and other tribes of Arizona and New Mexico did not use kiln type ovens to cook their Mescal. Depending on the size of the plant, it was roasted/steamed (in a pit dug in the earth and prepared specifically for the job) from one to four days.

I have many, many sources for the Apache method for cooking Mescal. All are the same.
Without moving from my chair I can read the titles of 40+ books on the Apache, and I doubt there is one that fails to describe the cooking of Mescal. Corn was often cooked in a very similar manner.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[the blindbowman]

those are all magnified from 2.0 megapixel photo take about 200 yards away ,we lost some very good photos of 800fs ,i wish i had them now ... they are the digial photo i have to work with for now .reshooting what 800 fs i have is less than a prefect idea as well , they are magnified about 36 times for 2.0 thats as good as i can do with this quality ....my computer is 5.6 daulcore and i still am waiting for my photo eding software program...


after expedition 3 , i will out right have some high quality photos ...

i beleived that anyone wanting to see those picture would magnifiy them after down loading them to their own computer . it helps somewhat ... the fact remains, the wholes in the rock face are evenly spaced and do look to be man made and that is one of the required factors for the permits and yes i do have this area to a scaled yard stick as another requaried factor of the permits by scott wood ...

we are not useing any of these photos as evidence they are just exploratory photos only ...

i would like to have 10 or 15 objects selected for exploration . than haveing (its out there somewhere ?) for these objects or unknowns to show up in the same area, tells us we are in the right area . even if we dont bat a 100% in this game 70% will most often leed to better finds .. and often a object can be infront of you and not be seen with the naked eye . as i have proven here ...

and yes i have done some photography in the past ...i started by getting my frist nikon in 1980 in japan ...back than it was the top of line ,

here is some detail ...