Superstition mine question?

[treasurejack]

Can anyone tell me the known origin & history of these mines?

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI:I am curious also.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[treasurejack]

HI:I am curious also.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"Tusayan"....got any clue what's its real translation is? I'm stumped?

 

[the blindbowman]

i dont remember the red X , but the other 4 mines i have seen related to spainish mines . i forget where off hand but . i beleive ether killer mt.s or when researching the massacre site . sorry i cant help more ....but do remember the order and there was 4 mines .. in fact i beleive curt gentery talks about other spanish mines in the latter part of that book . i beleive thats where i remember them from ...i dont remember anything abiout that red X location thats new to me ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI TJ, working on it, I have never heard it before nor have any of my Mexican friends here.

Are you sure that it is one word? tusa referrs to a mother in law or things similar to the south.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

The question on "Tusayan" and the meaning of it's name, is probably something which will never find an answer carved in stone.

Bandelier says it comes "from the Zuni name Usaya-kue, or people of Usaya." It has also been suggested by some, that "Tusayan is corrupt Nahuatl, from tochli, rabbit; an, place of, "Rabbit place".

It was the Spanish name for "Hopi-Land".

Good luck with this little historical treasure hunt.

I believe the "red +" is used by the computer program to center mark the map. It is not part of the actual map and is computer generated.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[the blindbowman]

i know what it means , its much like the word . Tayyyopa

 

[Springfield]

Tusayan was the indiginous name used by the Hopi to describe their domain when the Europeans arrived in the American Southwest in 1540. Later, the invaders called them Moqui, a word from the Navajo or Zunis meaning 'dead'.

The interesting aspect of the map is "Terrapin Pass". Why is it called that?

 

[treasurejack]

Tusayan was the indiginous name used by the Hopi to describe their domain when the Europeans arrived in the American Southwest in 1540. Later, the invaders called them Moqui, a word from the Navajo or Zunis meaning 'dead'.

The interesting aspect of the map is "Terrapin Pass". Why is it called that?

You are correct, I just found this:

"Yusayan" was used to describe the location of Moqui villages. (Fray Juan de Padilla during the Coronado expedition, 1540.)

"Teguayo" was first used by Pedro de Tovar, 1540, during the Coronado expedition, when he reported of the rich Indian lands near Salt Lake.

"Terrapin Pass" was already known and is just as it states, the very reason for my posting of the map, (the red "X" is a program marker.)

Assume for a moment that the legend of Jacob Waltz is accurate in its claim that he simply, “picked up his ore” and that “no miner will ever find my mine.” Could be he didn’t have a mine, but rather he had a cache of sorts?

Going back to pack train days, (Try this on Google earth) now draw yourself a route of travel from “Tumacacori” (or present day Tucson) to Tortilla Flat and the Gila River, and perhaps beyond. In doing so it is very possible that your selected route of travel would have taken you right past Weaver’s Needle and the location of the presented mines. Now let’s say you did follow this route north and that you did in fact find gold ore near the Gila or beyond. The stone was then likewise crushed and the ore separated and eventually loaded into packs for the long journey back to the sea ports in Mexico. But at some point during this journey back there was an event that took place that caused you to cache or abandon all, or part of, your loads. I don’t believe there ever was a Lost Dutchman’s “Mine.” But rather I believe his ore came from an abandoned Spanish pack train, which given the scenario above, could further explain its high content? This would also explain Waltz quick trips to and from and his “picking up” of his ore, as well as, “no miner will ever find my mine,” because there is no “mine.” What is most interesting is the tag, "Terrapin Pass" as from what I have researched so far it was infact a known & used pass during an earlier era. An event of such magnitude, just as I am suggesting, did take place in the Superstitions, but the real $$$ question might be, "where exactly, were they returning from?" I'm still working on that little mystery.......

 

[cactusjumper]

Terrapin was a term applied to old timers in the Southwest. Desert Tortoise........Old age?

It was also an important part of Southwestern Native American myths and tales.

Probably could take your pick here.

Joe

 

[Springfield]

A terrapin is a turtle. A turtle has traditionally associated with a nearby treasure. It would be interesting to research the origin of the place name on this quad sheet, i.e., who named it and when.

 

[alaskabill]

Can anyone tell me the known origin & history of these mines?

Good question. Of all the other “known” diggings in the Black Top Mesa and Bluff Spring Mountain area, why are these the only ones the USGS decided to indicate on their topo series?

The USGS printed this map (the Weaver’s Needle quadrangle topo) after having knowledge of these mining activities. If I remember correctly, the published USGS Map Key, a separate publication, indicates that an “x” is used to depict a “prospect” site and the “reverse arrow” symbol (head of the arrow placed at the rear) indicates an audit or tunnel site. If we knew the date of publication of the map that was used to create this image, we could be certain that the mines were known by data available to the USGS and the mining activity occurred prior to the time of the map data record and publication.

USGS performs field surveys periodically and publishes updated maps as the older ones are revised. I have a USGS, Florence Arizona quadrangle map that is dated 1900. It is a “1 to 125,000 scale” map and does not have these mines indicated. The map above looks to me like a more detailed map with a different scale than the 1/125,000 series of maps and therefore the mining sites were not included on my 1900 edition even though the sites might have been documented by USGS prior to 1900.

Probably the best source of the older USGS maps will be in local or regional museums and libraries. While researching 18th century Indian settlements in Alabama, I found old charts in the state library and museum that identified the locations of these villages that were mentioned in old local history books.

If claims were filed for these prospects, the State of Arizona should have a database of where, when and by whom the claims were filed.

Tom Kollenborn made notations on a USGS topo map (that appears to be of the same scale as the image above. His notations indicate the location of several camps in the immediate area of these prospects on the slopes of Bluff Springs Mountain. See pages 196, 197, of Helen Corbin’s book, The Bible on the Lost Dutchman’s Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz, 2002. TK may have known more about their history and origins. These old prospects could very well have been original Spanish or Mexican diggings from the 17th or 18th century and later re-discovered by early Arizona prospectors. Or they were diggings by 20th century prospectors.

Since I wrote the discussion above, I found a copy of the USGS 1912 Arizona Mining Districts map. It is a two-part chart and indicates NO known mining districts near Bluff Springs Mountain. Not even the Goldfield District is indicated. See charts at this link:

Chart 1 of 2. http://menotomymaps.com/map_img.asp?p=map_fdbdown.asp?106&mak=1912_Arizona_mining_district

Chart 2 of 2.
http://menotomymaps.com/map_img.asp?p=map_fdbdown.asp?107&mak=1912_Arizona_mining_district

With this information, I am of the opinion that the USGS had no verifiable or documented mining activity on or near BSM before 1912 to update their maps for the area near Terrapin Pass. Not even the Goldfield District was listed. In might not have existed in 1912; I just don’t remember. Those mine sites may have been known or accessed by folks that kept the locations to themselves and did not file any mining activity or claims.

I am going to try to get information directly from the USGS and see if I can find out when they first posted those BSM mining sites on the topo map. It would be interesting to see if these sites were included on the first publication of the Weaver’s Needle quadrangle and what year it was published.

If I find additional information, I’ll post it here.

Bill

 

[Oroblanco]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET AlaskaBill! Thank you for posting!
Oroblanco

 

[alaskabill]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET AlaskaBill! Thank you for posting!
Oroblanco

Hi Mr. O...

Thanks for the welcome.

I've been reading most of the posts under the LDM topic and this question has been stuck in my craw since I bought my Florence quadrangle map in 1961. On one of my trecks up Needle Canyon, I met an old timer who had a camp near the bottom of the southeast slopes of Black Top Mesa. I wish I could remember his name, but I do remember he was a school teacher, retired I believe. He was prospecting a small tunnel cut back into the mountain. I have no idea if it was his work or the work of an earlier miner. I have also read about other diggings on the northeast side of BTM. It seems strange that the USGS would mark on the Weaver's Needle quadrangle map only those sites at the base of Bluff Springs Mountain.

I'll post anything that USGS provides, but I'll bet some of you "sourdough" researchers probably have a better idea how far back these particular sites have been known by local folks.

Biill

 

[Oroblanco]

Bill - I am not even sure those are actually "mines" in Needle canyon. USGS marks mines not based on a list of registered claims but by aerial photographs, and as you know there are quite a few "prospect tunnels" and shafts dug by people searching for the Lost Dutchman, often dug in some spot that seems to fit their set of "clues" but without even a trace of any precious metals. That is not to say there are no gold mines in the Superstitions, (there are a few) but I can't recall any in that particular canyon.

Goldfield mines were discovered not long after Jacob Waltz died, in the early 1890's, I don't think it was a separate district prior to that. There is a USGS publication which would have a detailed history of all the known mines, we have a copy but can't get at it - it was the Superstition Mountains Wilderness Study Area or something similar to that title, and may be online free at the USGS site or a paper copy for a fee. I think it would identify those mines if they are indeed mines.

I look forward to reading more from you amigo, your posts are excellent!
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

The USGS updated a number of quad sheets in New Mexico (probably Arizona and other states too) in 1992. I became pretty good friends with a fellow who was in charge of the work in SW New Mexico. He field-checked a very large number of surface features that appeared on the existing quads, such as benchmarks, roads, trails, mine shafts, tunnels, bridges, buildings, camps, archaeological sites, etc., and added some newer features that were created since the issuance of the current maps (new benchmaks, section corners, stock tanks, roads, buildings, landing strips, etc.). He told me that it was his responsibility to recommend the deletion of many of the older 'historical' features from the new quads to 'protect them' from the public. When I examined the first set of new provisional quads a couple years later, boy was he right! Lots of interesting destinations for the curious simply disappeared from the record, even a number of 'suggestive' place names. Bottom line: obtain the oldest set of quad sheets you can lay your hands on.

 

[cactusjumper]

There is this report by J.E. Jinks:

http://www.admmr.state.az.us/DigitalLibrary/USBM_MLA/USBM_MLA_136-82.pdf

Joe

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]