SPANISH SHIPWRECK TREASURE

[Salvor6]

I started this thread for SWR, pcolaboy and ivan so they could argue about who has the rights to Spanish shipwreck treasure. I believe who ever finds it- owns it but if Spain files a claim I would rather give it to the native American Indians than let Spain get one iota.

Get this book: "1491" by Charles C. Mann. He describes the latest archaeological evidence of native American culture before Columbus' arrival. IT IS STUNNING! The Spaniards are responsible for wiping out TWO civilizations, the Aztec and Maya. New evidence estimates the total loss at between 50 to 100 million people!

 

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[boonestone]

I believe the Spaniards were responsible for the erasure of the Incan civilisation as well. In my opinion, their behavior and thirst for riches during the 16th century, is one of the terrible travesties of human existence. They should be entitled to nothing. Give it back to where it was stolen.

 

[Darren in NC]

Nice post, boonestone - I was typing this at the same time...

Thanks for the book info, Pete. Sounds interesting! Don't forget the third civilization - the Incas. And then there were innumerable tribal groups that never got much attention in the history books.

 

[G.I.B.]

I think the worst part is that we honor murderous morally corrupt thieves and pillagers. The people who slaughtered other human beings without regard now have an honored place in our society.

We name streets, and towns after them. Dedicate highways in their names, and tell our children they were wonderful explorers…Disney loves to make movies about how kind, generous, and wonderful they were.

~sheesh~

 

[SEAHUNTER]

Thanks for creating a thread where those in the clique can lambast a respected member of TreasureNet.

I respectfully decline your invitation to play your games at this time

SWR
I did not realize the spanish government was a respected member of TreasureNet, or are you referring to someone else?
Is it respectable to lambast treasure hunting companies, but not governments or members?

 

[ivan salis]

well---spain was was very heavy into slave labor ---so much so that the english and dutch went to war with them to be allowed into the "highly profitible" flesh trade since spain could not "supply" the slaves fast enought to keep up with their colonies demand and many early english and dutch explorers were actually on raids ---taking slaves from raids in south america to sell to mexico and often were carrying slaves from africa to sell in mexico also---yes america has a dark past about the issue ---but finally the african slave trade was made illegal in 1803 (although it was not really enforced much---due to both greed and apathy)----mainly because the USA had seen the haitian revolt of 1799 and was scared of something like that happening in the south----the number of slaves was close to or equal the amount of non slaves in the south---until the age of "air conditioning" most white folks could not stand to live in the south due to its oppressive heat and sun ---the main reason blacks were used for slave labor was--they "coped" better with the heat---as most were used to the heat & harsh conditions of africa.--- oddly the slave trade was starting to die off somewhat in the 1850 --1860 era --- mainly due due to the "cheap" labor brought about by the irish potato famine ---these were poor irish tenant farmer types who were starving to death and would sign themselfs into bondage for seven years for the cost of passage to america---better to be a slave for several years in america than stave to death they said---the "bog--Irish" or "paddies" suffered very badly and were used for all types of hard labor and dangerous work instead of using high dollar african slaves---the "masters" liked the fact that the irishspoke english and because of laws passed to protect slaves from abused it was actually cheaper to use the irish "indentured sernants" than to "own" the african slaves---and after irish's "time" was up on their "contract" --they were could be exploted as as "cheap" day labor---never mind what they were paid was much less than the true "cost" of living-- they were often paid say 50 cents a day when the "actual cost of living" was a dollar a day---this promoted the slums where many would band together and pool their money so that they could live and exist hand to mouth--- sadly its still going on even to this very day ---its called "minimum wage" jobs ---working a 40 hour week---full time---most do not offer any health care for their workers---get sick and your out of a job ---tough luck---and you cannot afford a place to live (single apartment) on the US govts "recommended" % of income that you are supposed to spend of your income on housing--- anywhere in the usa according to a housing study that was recently done-----the "working poor" was replacing the "slave" slowly but surely just before the civil war---the die was cast as to the future---- after the civil war ---the freed slaves just joined the "working poor class"---they were just as "free" to starve to death as the rest of the working poor that were just trying to "scrape by"--- Ivan

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hi; Being intimately involved with early Spanish Explorations, acquisitions of minerals, food, labor etc. of the native people, and of course the Jesuit / Franciscan efforts, I cannot say any thing good about them other than that they were probably not much worse than the Aztec, Mayan or Incan civilizations, or the accepted norm of the other European countries at that time..

Most native (?) American groups were at constant war with each other. The early Spanish could not in any way have conquered the larger groups without thousands of dissident other Native Americans backing them with men and provisions. One might be morally allowed to speculate why were the other Nations so eager to aid the Spanish to eliminate the 3 primary cultures, the Aztecs, Mayas, and Incas. if they in turn were benevolent rulers.


Also one must put oneself in the period that they lived and operated, one where even the church condoned cutting off of a hand for a minor infraction , or publically burning one at the stake for an imagined heresy. A period that put very little value on a human life. Come to think of it, things haven't changed very much in the Orient or Africa. sheeesh.

However I thnk that Spain is going over board and is very greedy on quasi legal rights, but then If I had the same legal potential, what would I do ?.

MOVE OVER SPAIN, SEE YOU IN COURT !

Don Jose de La MAncha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning IVAN: You are quite correct, but then it was no different in the rest of the world, the Americas were not unique.. As a matter of fact, it even applies to today - sigh. .

Don Jose de La mancha

 

[ivan salis]

glad we can both agree its just a "grab" attempt by spain---hey looking at it from their point of veiw what do you have to lose---its worth a try right? I think they are kind of pushing the their luck and showing their greed thou with their "you can't recover anything that was lost at sea by any of our ships or that was spanish "cargo" hired out to be "carried" on others countries shipsby spain to be hauled back to spain without spain's "offical blessing" ---please ----I think thats a bit much---and using articles 95 & 96 to say "we never abandoned anything" and "since all of our ships had cannons on them--their warships" is a bit much in my veiw---- Ivan

 

[rgecy]

Thanks for creating a thread where those in the clique can lambast a respected member of TreasureNet.

I respectfully decline your invitation to play your games at this time

I am just trying to find out who the respected member of TNet is

 

[Peg Leg]

Guys you need to really study SLAVE TRADE.
As far as Slave Trade in the 1600 and later it started in Africa and grew from there. Look at Nigeria. This was the Home Base of the Slave Trade. It consisted of Africans capturing Africans. There was a Major Slave trading post on the Upper Niger River.
What surprises me is NO ONE has any idea where the word NIGGER came from.
This was the name of all slaves sold in Nigeria. They were called NI-GERS because of where they came from-THE NIGER RIVER.

England ws the first MODERN nation to outlaw Slavery.
I have been to the Old Slave Fortress in Freetown Sierra Leone West Africa. This Fortress ws destroyed by the English.
I have also been to Nigeria and was told stories by the Chiefs of many tribes both in Sierra Leone and Nigeria about how the Egyptians would attack a tribe for slaves way before America was discovered.
So my point is this THE PAST IS THE PAST and no one will change it.
Slavery is STILL BIG in Africa and around th world and not matter what you think IT AIN'T GONNA CHANGE.
Peg Leg

 

[Chagy]

IT IS STUNNING! The Spaniards are responsible for wiping out TWO civilizations, the Aztec and Maya. New evidence estimates the total loss at between 50 to 100 million people!

Two civilizations? I think more than two they are also responsible for wiping out the Taino indians from Puerto Rico and DR....

All the best,

Chagy....

 

[pcolaboy]

Dear SWR....

No games....just set the record straight.

In retrospect, I should not have made the comment "raped and pilledged the indigenous people of the Americas".

I should have used the terms, "kidnapping, extortion, massacre, slavery, oppression, plunder, genocide" in ADDITION to my previous statement. At the same time, I do not deny that the colonization and expansion of the United States did essentially the same thing to the indigenous native americans.

You should seriously take a look at the historical record from the expeditions of Cortez, Balboa, Pizzaro, de Vaca, Coronado, and de Soto to name just a few.

I have no disrespect for anyone on this board, including you. This is the last post I will make on this issue publicly but would be happy to continue the debate privately if desired.

Pcola

 

[Chagy]

Dear SWR....

No games....just set the record straight.

In retrospect, I should not have made the comment "raped and pilledged the indigenous people of the Americas".

I should have used the terms, "kidnapping, extortion, massacre, slavery, oppression, plunder, genocide" in ADDITION to my previous statement. At the same time, I do not deny that the colonization and expansion of the United States did essentially the same thing to the indigenous native americans.

You should seriously take a look at the historical record from the expeditions of Cortez, Balboa, Pizzaro, de Vaca, Coronado, and de Soto to name just a few.

I have no disrespect for anyone on this board, including you. This is the last post I will make on this issue publicly but would be happy to continue the debate privately if desired.

Pcola

I dont even think there is nothing to debate about the truth is the truth.....and we are not debating here, we are just giving out opinions...thats all..
and you know what they say about opinions

Chagy.......

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI PCOLA" NAH KEEP IN HERE, THE MORE THE MERRIER BESIDES --------- SWR (who I actually kinda like) would happily have me drawn and quartered.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[ivan salis]

I do have my veiws on some subjects and strongly believe in them---it doesn't mean I'M RIGHT---it just means they are my point of view on the way I see things according to the way I think.----unlike some folks I DON"T HAVE TO BE RIGHT ( OR LEFT EITHER) --- I just have to be me--- Ivan

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

? Ivan ?? I AM ALWAYS RIGHT !, but don't ask my Tiger or SWR, they are predjudiced. heheh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

pcolaboy . At the same time, I do not deny that the colonization and expansion of the United States did essentially the same thing to the indigenous native Americans.
************
HI, And they upon each other. The so called indigenous Americans were "not" peaceful peeps, but constantly preying upon each other for slaves, females (what for? just more trouble), food, etc. It was a tough hand to mouth existence that minimised any competition.

The Europeans didn't invent it, just refined it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Southernhunter]

the "working poor" was replacing the "slave" slowly but surely just before the civil war---the die was cast as to the future---- after the civil war ---the freed slaves just joined the "working poor class"---they were just as "free" to starve to death as the rest of the working poor that were just trying to "scrape by"--- Ivan

Thank god I'm not the only one who has that thought. Well said!

If we suppose the Spanish are laying claim to the booty as they "were" in possesion of it, wouldn't the indigenous population of the region have the same claim perhaps even to a greater degree as they were exploited as labor to provide it from their homeland?

 

[chris233]

the spanish did not conquer anything. the spanish stole alot of gold from the mexican civilizations by lyeing to them. basically this is what happened. when cortez arrived he was greeted by the aztec or mayan or incan emperor of the time. the emperor treated him
very well and offered cortez food and shelter for long periods of time. when the emperor showed cortez a gold ingot cortez got really crazy and wanted it all. i know the whole story and if you guy to mexico city to chapultepec in the library you can see that spain lyed to all the natives and pretty much killed them for their gold and all because of greed. I think when they use the word CONQUERED it is the wrong word to say how about CHEATED the civilizations and lied. I think spain has no weight whatsoever on recovered items of spains gold. first the gold was casted in mexico and taken from mexico so the gold is stolen from mexico meaning that how can you claim something you stole and nonetheless how can you claim something you have left abandoned for centuries. all the gold you see in spain about 85% in churches and especially the royal family all comes from mexico stolen from civilizations that were wiped out by spaniards for greed and wealth.