Stone Charts of the Superstitions

[Cubfan64]

Hal - Halseth played a role in another famous "dutchman" related story in the Superstitions. Remember the discovery of Ruth's skull?

 

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[Hal Croves]

Cubfan64,
Yes. I think that the answer to who carved the stone charts is right in front of us but because there are far too many coincidences and connections, the solution is obscured. I am planning a trip to D.C. to view Halseth's collection of 1500 AZ images. Not saying that he was involved, however someone may have used his work.

In researching Waltz, I keep reading that he was a Freemason, but no one has provided a source for that conclusion. Seems odd that so little is known about the man when (in his time) so many were familiar with him. Anyone know where this came from? Thank You!

 

[mineron]

This appears to be a Florence topo 1902 edition?
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/arizona/pclmaps-topo-az-florence-1900.jpg

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Travis,

Not saying that Clay is lying at all. Just saying what I believe from what I have read and been told. In addition to what I have already written, I don't believe that Dick Holmes knew Waltz personally or was at his deathbed. I have doubts about the source of that information.

The source for the story of Dick Holmes and Gidion Roberts being with Waltz when he died is highly suspect. Chances are that Gidion did not even exist? Here are some interesting questions:
_______________________________________________________________________

Ozarker Post subject: Roberts Family?Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:47 am


Part Timer

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:12 PM
Posts: 158 Hello Roger:

Well, I’m not even sure where to start. The family historian? Gideon? George Riley? The family farm? Matthew Robert’s relationship to the family? Family familiarity with Dick Holmes? With Jacob Waltz? The discovery of the richest gold mine in California, only to walk away from it for a mere pittance?

Where did any of this information come from? Was it the same source that placed Jacob Waltz in the back of Julia’s store? That had Christina Morrell interviewing Rhiney in 1933?

Who was Bertie Roberts? Did she even exist? Glover didn’t seem to think so. Corbin did.

Who was Margaret Roberts? Did she even exist? Corbin didn’t seem to think so. Glover did.

Who was the aunt that passed all this information along? Did she even exist? If so, did the information get modified after it left her hands?

How does Gideon O. Roberds (not Roberts) fit into all of this? He owned a lot just one block south and one block west of Julia’s in 1891 (his sister owned it for about 8 years before that). He was from Trinidad, in Las Animas County, Colorado, but spent every winter in Phoenix. He was a miner by trade. Dick Holmes’ lot was just south of his, but at a different time. Is it possible that Gideon O. Roberds and Gideon O. Roberts histories are getting confused, either mistakenly or intentionally? (For comparison, see Glover, page 199)

(BTW, Gideon Roberds lived until 1903).

Did Gideon Roberts even exist? If so, did he die in 1891? Who buried Gideon Roberts? Where was he buried? Where did the reference to the Pioneer Cemetery in Phoenix come from? When did that reference first come to light?

I guess my original question was one of frustration. I really didn’t expect any answers as there are none apparent. Even the questions above have no ready answers. It’s just another path of research that leaves me wondering whether there is any merit to some of the LDM backstory, and whether the Roberts family has been woven into the story through someone’s imagination.

Oh well.

Larry
______________________________________________

You wrote:

"I personally think Brownie did write the Manuscript, or at least provided most of the material for it, even if he did deny it. My personal opinion is that he thought the Manuscript "gave away" more information than he intended, and that's the reason he denied writing it. I believe he passed his knowledge on to someone, and he didnt want the world to know that MOST of the information his father Dick received from Waltz was made public by this Manuscript."

If you believe that Brownie wrote the manuscript on his kitchen table, as his family claimed, why would he put information in it that he wanted to keep secret? If you accept it as written, it was meant for publication.......from the start.

Take care,

Joe

Hello,

For anyone that cares about this part of the post, There is a Gideon O. Roberts buried in the Pioneer/Military Cemetery (the same one Waltz is buried in). He died in April 1892, about 6 months after Jacob Waltz died. I'll try to do some research to find out about Bertie now and see what I can come up with.

Thanks,
Travis

 

[Hal Croves]

As I said, I am trying to track down the aerial image that was used to create the Stone Charts, if indeed one was used. I am going to continue to use the word "if" because my confidence in reading the stone charts has rubbed a few readers the wrong way which was not the intended effect. In retrospect I should have been more reserved in my certainty. Going back and reading the threads written by the last person with a balloon solution, it is understandable that many here would be suspicious and even angry. So, with that said, moving forward I hope that everyone reading this will make an effort to contribute.

I have offered several possible solutions (who carved the stones) based on the various dates suggested, but the experience and reasoning of the more seasoned treasure hunters on this site have helped me to understand the limits of the possibilities. If the stones are a collection of aerial charts, then (because of the required altitude needed to place the stones) I have come to the sad conclusion that they are modern. Modern? Between 1925 and 1949. Sad because it removes a great part of the imagination from the equation. No flying Jesuits or aerial images taken by the Mexican Balloonist Benito Leon Acosta. Modern maybe, but perhaps not a hoax.

So, moving on with the theory that the stones were made using modern aerial photography.... There are a few details that I would like to consider.
Reading T. Kollenborn's story about the discovery of Ruth's skull... The team was searching for native ruins. Anyone know what information was used to prompt the search or the results (other than finding Ruth's skull)?

"This aircraft was used in 1930, to photograph prehistoric ruins and canals in the Salt River Valley (Phoenix). The project was undertaken by Odds Halseth, City of Phoenix Archaeologist, Neil Judd, Smithsonian, and the Army Air Corp."

I think that the three groups represented in this quote each need to be carefully researched. There is one common link.

FYI About the plane used:

"The Douglas O-2 observation biplane, with its longer wings, had lower landing speeds, flew higher and was 22 mph faster than its competitors. The O-2, produced for the U.S. Army Air Service, was the first of a series that remained in production for nine years.

Douglas designed its first experimental observation aircraft, the XO-2, in 1923 and delivered 45 of the first production version, the O-2. On Feb. 16, 1925, a contract was signed for 75 of the O-2 type, the largest single contract in terms of production units the company had yet received.

An O-2BS, made for pilot James McKee, made the first single-aircraft, single-pilot flight across Canada. Because of the many Canadian rivers and lakes, twin floats were installed on the landplane. Between Sept. 11 and 19, 1926, McKee flew the 3,000 miles between Montreal and Vancouver in 35 hours and 8 minutes, at an average speed of 85 mph. The plane later was modified as a three-seater and used by the Canadian government until January 1930 as a high-altitude photographic survey aircraft.

Later O-2 variants had a more streamlined fuselage and a two-blade metal propeller instead of the previous wooden propeller. Some were modified as basic trainers by adding flight controls and instruments to the rear cockpit.

During the '20s and early '30s, the Douglas observation biplanes were among the most important American military aircraft. During the 1934 airmail emergency, Douglas biplanes flew the U.S. airmail routes for 78 days. Between 1923 and 1936, the company sold 879 in the series, one as a civil aircraft, 108 to foreign air forces and 770 to the U.S. military services.

Specifications First flight: Autumn 1924
Wingspan: 39 feet
Length: 29 feet 7 inches
Height: 10 feet 6 inches
Ceiling: 12,275 feet
Range: 400 miles
Weight: 4,985 pounds
Power plant: 435-horsepower Liberty engine
Speed: 103 mph
Accommodation: Two - later modified to seat three."

 

[Cubfan64]

Hal - since you're researching, add E.D. Newcomer to your list of photographers in the Superstition Mountain area. I know he left a sizeable collection of B&W photos in the area and was quite well known.

 

[somehiker]

Hal:

Tom Kollenborn has long had an interest in aviation and the Sups.
He has written several articles on the topic.
A link to one:

http://superstitionmountaintomkollenborn.blogspot.com/2009_12_01_archive.html

Last article on the page.....scroll down.

A question I have to ask though...
If aerial photographs were available,why go to all the work of copying them on to pieces of stone?
Why not just mark a trail and an X on the photograph itself,since no-one else is likely to know where the photos were taken?

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Travis,

"For anyone that cares about this part of the post, There is a Gideon O. Roberts buried in the Pioneer/Military Cemetery (the same one Waltz is buried in). He died in April 1892, about 6 months after Jacob Waltz died. I'll try to do some research to find out about Bertie now and see what I can come up with."

In looking for historical evidence for "Bertie", you might want to consider "Sara". Others have gone down this road before, and most everything that could be found.......was found.

A great deal of "evidence" has been fabricated and spoon fed to us all.

Good luck in your search,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Joe:

"The group who worked the "Silver Chief", were led to it by a third party, who did not participate in the dig.

Take care,

Joe"


"A great deal of "evidence" has been fabricated and spoon fed to us all.

Good luck in your search,

Joe"

Two examples of many?

Regards:Wayne

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul:

That,I would agree is a possibility.
Of particular interest,are samples #5,6,7 and 8,which were all obtained from the area where the LDM has been claimed to have been found.
And cleaned out during the 1990's......am I correct?
I once postulated that evidence discovered during this survey,but not included in the report,was passed on to the group responsible for the dig.
Anyone else have similar suspicions?

Regards:Wayne

ps: I have someone else more qualified (and less nervous) working on the translations.
Will forward his contact info next week.

Thanks Wayne - I didn't want to bug you about those translations. I figured you had someone working on them . No rush at all as I don't expect them to be earthshattering at all, however I'm hoping they might give a little idea of timeframe as to when they were lost there.

Thanks again - has the winter in Canada been as mild and "snow free" as ours has been in the NE? I'm nervous that old man winter is going to hit us hard in March for some big late winter/early spring storms, but as the days go by, it's looking less and less likely.

 

[somehiker]

Paul:

Yes,it has been mild here as well.
My heating bill for gas has been around 60% of what is normal for this time of year.
Instead of two feet of snow,there are only a few patches here and there.
Kinda makes up for what we had to deal with these last few years.

Should be interesting,knowing what the papers are about.
I also doubt they are of any real importance to our interests in what may or may not lie within the Sups.

Regards:Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Wayne,

Joe:

"The group who worked the "Silver Chief", were led to it by a third party, who did not participate in the dig.

Take care,

Joe"

The Frank Alkire story, as it relates to Jacob Waltz and events surrounding his death. No truth whatsoever.

The Ben Edwards story, along with all it's twists and turns as they relate to the Massacre Grounds.

Every story, as far as I know, ever told about Bertie (Sara) Roberts.

Most stories that tell about the Apache in the Superstitions.

The Olbers manifest.

The Transmitting Draft.

The "fact" that Jacob Waltz died in a back room of Julia's store.

I could go on, but have no doubt you are aware of most of what I would write. I appreciate the question, but don't really need the practice.

Hope all is well with you.

Take care,

Joe


"A great deal of "evidence" has been fabricated and spoon fed to us all.

Good luck in your search,

Joe"

Two examples of many?

Regards:Wayne

 

[Hal Croves]

Cubfan64,
Thank you for the name. I will spend some time looking at his work.

somehiker,
Thank you for the link.
"A question I have to ask though... If aerial photographs were available,why go to all the work of copying them on to pieces of stone? Why not just mark a trail and an X on the photograph itself,since no-one else is likely to know where the photos were taken?"

I can only offer you the obvious answer. Encrypting an aerial photograph of various confidential sites makes sense if you want to keep things secure and confidential. If that "marked" aerial photo were ever misplaced or stolen, it would not take very long before someone with your level of knowledge could identify the locations. So, an encrypted stone chart makes sense however "theatrical" it may appear. But why go to the effort? What group would under take such a ceremonial work just to express information? That IS a very big clue.

If I were to show you my placement of the Horse stone in GE, you, with all your knowledge of the Superstitions would instantly recognize the location. I am not going to make that location available to the general public, but I will tell you that I believe the Horse stone represents a cluster of silver mines. Why? Independent 3rd party testing, Kenworthy's work (I know your feelings about Kenworthy), and my own research. Read this: http://www.thegeozone.com/treasure/arizona/tales/az019a.jsp I believe that the locations in this story are represented by the Horse stone.

 

[somehiker]

Hal:

"If I were to show you my placement of the Horse stone in GE, you, with all your knowledge of the Superstitions would instantly recognize the location. I am not going to make that location available to the general public, but I will tell you that I believe the Horse stone represents a cluster of silver mines. Why? Independent 3rd party testing, Kenworthy's work (I know your feelings about Kenworthy), and my own research. Read this: http://www.thegeozone.com/treasure/arizona/tales/az019a.jsp I believe that the locations in this story are represented by the Horse stone."/color]

I assume you know that the area discussed in the article is located well to the east of the Superstitions,and north-east of Globe?

Regards:SH

 

[Hal Croves]

somehiker,
"I assume you know that the area discussed in the article is located well to the east of the Superstitions,and north-east of Globe?"
Yes, I read the article. Like most of the stories of lost mines, I believe that the author is only guessing at a location based on vague details of an old legend. Those details are often intentionally incorrect... I think that you would agree on this point. What if Northeast was actually Northwest? As the crow flies, I measure 37 miles from Globe to the location of the Horse stone (my placement). In that landscape, how many miles do you think that a man can travel in three days?

"The ore was brought in by an Apache Indian who found it near a ledge "3 days journey to the northeast". It was a rich silver sulfide, probably acanthite. Clark hired a tracker to follow the Apache back to the silver ledge, but the Apache eluded his pursuer in the rugged Salt River Canyon."

An experienced tracker might miss his target if he set out expecting to travel in a NE direction. Obviously, the Apache in this story did not want the location to be found. One way to insure that is to tell half truths. But I may be wrong, and it may actually be another important location rich in silver.

 

[Loke]

... and would an apache be able to give you verbatim directions like 'northeast' or 'northwest'
- or would he just point and say "it is 3 days in 'that' direction"?

just saying ...

 

[somehiker]

Hal:

An Apache might be able to cover far more than 37 miles in three days.If he lied about the direction,why do you believe he told the truth about the number of days?
Perhaps the silver came from the Southwest,in the opposite direction to which he claimed.In that direction lie many well known silver mines and lost mines as well.
The Twin Buttes horse and heart also can be found exactly SW of Globe....about 32 miles distant.
I was told at the Rendezvous,by a good source (Joe R.),that the Horse Scraping at TB was exactly like the horse on the stone.
That should be a good clue as to where to begin a search for what the Stone Maps represent.
Silver has been found there as well........a second clue!!....if you now believe the maps are about silver mines,rather than the LDM or other Gold mines/deposits.
BTW:The Salt River Canyon at the heart of the story is not the same river canyon which winds through the Salt River Mountains to the north of the Sups.

I will always question theories which claim a connection to any "secret society".
The KGC,Masons,Mormons and even the Jesuits and the Franciscans still exist today as organizations.
Their members occupy positions of power and influence,it is claimed.
Therefore it is quite likely,if the maps are genuine,that the mines? shown on the maps are well known and legally operated by companies owned by members or followers of these organizations.Of what possible use would a number of secret mines be to any of these groups?

"What group would under take such a ceremonial work just to express information? "

How would the group which you suspect are responsible for carving the stones,have used them in "ceremonies" ,which I presume are also "secret"?

Regards:SH.

Loke:

Sounds about right.....sign language

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

"I was told at the Rendezvous,by a good source (Joe R.),that the Horse Scraping at TB was exactly like the horse on the stone."

I suppose I could have said "the Horse Scraping at TB was exactly like the horse on the stone.", as anything is possible these days, but if I did I badly misspoke. My appogies.

Here is what I actually think about the connection between the two:

The scrapings at TB match markings on the Stone Maps to such a degree, that it seems impossible to not make a connection between the two.

I will ask Ernie Provence who first showed or told him about TB. Believe they first saw them from a plane.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Joe:

I was payin attention.....but your appogies. are unnecessary.

"The scrapings at TB match markings on the Stone Maps to such a degree, that it seems impossible to not make a connection between the two."

I believe that to be true as well.
Although the photos posted to date do not show the horse scraping straight on,or clearly,and it appears to be facing in the opposite direction,I have no reason to believe that the horse does not,otherwise,match the horse on the stone.I've had no contact from the gentleman who had the photos at the rendezvous,nor has he been posting on either website since.I should be able to get some of my own soon,and will post them when I do.
No luck on the story of the testing which I mentioned.I may stumble across it while looking elsewhere,though.

Question is,what's the connection?

Regards:Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Here are some recent photos:

They were taken by a friend.

Take care,

Joe