Stone Charts of the Superstitions

[Dirty Dutchman]

Joe,

All very good points.

I personally don't see anything but questions from the guy Larry. Did Waltz exist? Did Dick Holmes exist? Did Joe Ribaudo exist? Where are the answers and the back up?

And the stories of people weaving other stories into the legend? Those are just peoples opinions also......I don't see the PROOF anywhere.....

If Dick Holmes wasnt at the deathbed of Waltz, then Clay Worst is spreading a lie. Again, I don't believe it. I believe Dick was there.

I'll continue to stick to my own theory for now, but this line of comments is very interesting....

Thanks,
Travis

 

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[cactusjumper]

Travis,

I assume your questions are pure humor.

As for Larry's statements, I was angered by his post, and let him know in no uncertain terms. Later, after seeing his research and the evidence that prompted the questions, I made a public apology. It's
All based on publicly available information.
_________________________________

Joe Ribaudo

Post subject: Re: Roberts Family

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:00 PM

Expert

Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 PM
Posts: 5029


Larry.

"This will be my only post on this topic."

It would seem that another post is in order. That being the case, I would like to publicly apologize to you.

Kraig,

When you read this, as I know you will, please give me a call or send me an email. I need to talk to you.

Take care,

Joe
_________________________________

So Travis, If you, or anyone else, can provide verifiable evidence concerning the questions he asks, please do so. I have been asking for such proof about those people for some time now.... without a peep from the source.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan64,
This might belong in another thread but I am trying to find any link between DLM & the stone charts... so, I read somewhere that the date was Feb 22, but I have misplaced the link. Anyway, if Waltz died of "some" condition aggravated by his being caught in a 1891 flood.. the facts don't seem to add up. In 90 & 91 there were floods but they both occurred in Feb. Since Waltz was being cared for as a result of the flood, that rules out Feb 22 1890, but Feb 22 1891... was right smack in the middle of the event. I found no recorded flood for Sep/Oct 1891, however I have just started looking.

"1891 Feb. 18-26: The maximum flood of record for Maricopa County occurs on the Verde, Salt and Gila rivers. The Salt River has an estimated 300,000 cubic feet per second water flow, expanding to nearly three miles wide in the Phoenix area and rising to 18 feet above the wooden Arizona Diversion Dam at the confluence with the Verde River. Adobe homes along the Salt River are demolished and the railroad bridge between Tempe and Phoenix is destroyed, leaving Phoenix without a rail connection for three months. Remarkably, no fatalities are recorded."

"1890 Feb. 22: At Phoenix, the Salt River rises 17 feet in 15 hours. Heavy rains and melting snow cause the failure of Walnut Grove Dam on the Hassaympa River 30 miles north of Wickenburg, drowning 128 people and causing considerable property damage."

February is also a much more logical time as Waltz suffered from exposure. October seems unlikely. Has anyone else read about the Feb 22 date? If so please post the link! Thank you!

AZ February
Rainfall:
Average: 0.7 inches
Record: 4.7 inches(1905)
Temperature (degrees F):
Average High: 70.7 degrees
Lowest High: 46 degrees (1899, 1903)
Record High: 92 degrees (1921, 1986)
Average Low: 44.7 degrees
Highest Low: 65 degrees (1996)
Record Low: 24 degrees (1899, 1993)

AZ October
Rainfall:
Average: 0.7 inches
Record: 4.4 inches (1972)
Temperature (degrees F):
Average High: 88.1 degrees
Lowest High: 56 degrees (1959)
Record High: 107 degrees (1980)
Average Low: 60.8 degrees
Highest Low: 82 degrees (1987)
Record Low: 34 degrees (1900,1911)

Also, another date October 13, 1891 found here:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=6172003

Nine months after the flood Waltz dies of pneumonia? That just seems unlikely. What am I missing?

I don't know that you're missing anything Hal. According to Dr. Glover's on the Lost Dutchman Mine, Waltz's home (spelled Walts) in the newspaper was one of the houses listed as being lost in the February 26, 1891 Phoenix Weekly Herald, p. 1. Jacob Waltz's short obituary was in the October 26, 1891 Phoenix Daily Herald p. 3, and the Arizona Daily Gazette, October 27, 1891.

Ely's book implies that Waltz became ill shortly after the flood and that he suffered from pneumonia, but eventually recovered and was planning to take Julia and Rhiney to the mine (or at least close enough to point out the way to them). Then at some point he relapsed (perhaps more than once) and eventually was bedridden and passed away on October 25, 1891.

Did he die of pneumonia or complications thereof, or did he die of something else? Nobody will ever know, however I've had pneumonia and I'm only in my late 40's and I know how hard it was to recover from and I also know that now every time I catch even a small cold, it ends up in my chest and causes me a great deal of breathing problems.

There has also been some discussions about Waltz being ill on and off back in the 1878 to 1880 timeframe, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he was simply a sickly man in his later years.

Keep in mind too that he was ~81 years old when he passed away. By all measures, he lived to be quite a bit older than the average male born in ~1810.

I guess I just don't find it that surprising for him to have died when and how he did.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cuber you posted-->so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he was simply a sickly man in his later years.

Keep in mind too that he was ~81 years old when he passed away. By all measures, he lived to be quite a bit older than the average male born in ~1810.
********************

Watch it cubber, I am just - hawk, koff, koff sniffle, - fine. I will - koff koff - make it to to my 150 th birthday.

However, it is now going on the second week and I am getting a bit tired of it, have to get posting again. I need some of oro's sock .

However, I wlll agree that in the late 1800's it was harder to survive. Walsh's end seems to be remarkedly common. Respiritory infections were particlarly difficult to handle then.

Besides, with 'so many open ends', why worry so much about exactly when he died and how? Is it actually that important?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Loke]

*wow*
Joe,
I really thought that by now I had read (or at least skimmed through) most forums/topics dealing with the LDM - you bring up things that I have never even heard of!!
It just makes me realize how little I really know ... and how much more is out there - all waiting to be collected and categorized ...

It's just getting harder and harder to separate the wheat from the chaff - maybe there's nothing but chaff when push comes to shove *chuckles*

Per

 

[Cubfan64]

*wow*
Joe,
I really thought that by now I had read (or at least skimmed through) most forums/topics dealing with the LDM - you bring up things that I have never even heard of!!
It just makes me realize how little I really know ... and how much more is out there - all waiting to be collected and categorized ...

It's just getting harder and harder to separate the wheat from the chaff - maybe there's nothing but chaff when push comes to shove *chuckles*

Per

Per - to be honest, I've wondered that for awhile myself too. Even if it's not all chaff, I wonder if we have enough information to even recognize the grains of wheat that might exist. Doesn't mean it's not fun though - just exasperating!

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Loke,

Don't get to wowed by those bed time stories for LDM treasure hunters. They just get me sleepy.

I did like the part where the writer describes what Rodriguez and the two packers from Sonora saw, and that just one Apache was watching them. If they all got slaughtered, where in the heck does so much detail come from? What does this tell you about the rest of the story?

The same goes for theories from so called experts. One gets wowed at first, thinking this guy is good, how did he figure this, even him showing me I still can't see it. If you can't see it, it's not there! It's just in his head.

Homar

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

Once you get pneumonia, you are very susceptible to getting it repeatedly. It's likely that Waltz had been dealing with it for years.

Paul,

You should look into taking the most powerful antioxidant you can purchase. I would suggest that you go on line, or look into any weight lifting magazine. You will find them in the add sections. Professional athletes have know about them for years.

Loke,

Many of us have the posts that were on Peter's site before it was shut down. There was a wealth of information in there.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mineron]

Here are a few floods I found.
Report on the climate of Arizona:
December, 1879.At Phoenix on the 29th an unusually heavy rainstorm caused the river to rise 10 feet in 2 days.

August, 1881.Near Wickenburgh, Ariz., a clond burst, causing the Hassayampa River from being perfectly dry at sunset, August 6, 1881, to be a stream a mile wide at 11 p. m., and from 2 to 15 feet deep; in 13 hours the river was again dry. On the 17tb a flood interrupted communication and did much damage in the Salt River Valley near Phoenix.

December, 1889.On the 5th the Verde and Salt Rivers rose very rapidly and at Fort McDowell the Verde overflowed its banks. On the 6th the Verde overflowed at Fort Verde.

February, 1890.At Fort Verde the river reached its highest flood mark on the 21st and washed ont irrigating ditches. A large area of the Gila Valley was flooded during the latter part of the month and irrigating canals were severely damaged. On the 22d a sndden flood on the Upper Hassayampa destroyed the Walnnt Grove reservoir, with great losses of life and property.

Daily river stages at river gage stations on the principal rivers By United States. Weather Bureau
1916 The Salt River of Arizona was about 10 feet above flood stage on two occasions during January. The Gila was also in flood, and the flow of the latter produced a moderate flood in the lower Colorado in the latter part of January.

source?
1922 Phoenix, Arizona, Flood. A section of the western portion of Phoenix, Ariz., from two to ten blocks wide; on the night of August 21, was flooded by water originating in Cave Creek. No lives were lost and the principal damage was to the state capital, where water stood about 2H ft- deep on the first floor, though many private residences suffered severely, the property damage being estimated at $300,000. Considerable damage also was done to cattle and crops of ranchers living to the north of the city.
Cave Creek, responsible for the flood, drains an area of 200 sq. mi., and from a point about 12 miles north of Phoenix flows through no defined channel. With average rains the waters spread over a delta and find their way through the Salt River Valley Water Users' Association canals to the Salt and Gila rivers, but not infrequently these canals have been broken through and with areas flooded when there were heavy rains.
After two days of unusually heavy rain, an unusually heavy runoff took place, which Cave Creek was unable to handle. The flood waters overflowed the Arizona Canal, which has a flood capacity of 800 sec.-ft., 8 miles from Phoenix and later overflowed the Grand Canal, parallel to and 5 mi. south of the Arizona Canal. This canal has a flood capacity of 600 sec.-ft. In the early evening the flood reached Phoenix, and reached its maximum there at 10 p. m., receding by the following morning.
As a result the city voted bonds for $100,000, to be supplemented by amounts from the county of Maricopa, the State, the Salt River Valley Water Users' Association and other interests, to an aggregate of $400,000 to institute protection against Cave Creek floods, but no definite announcement had been made of the engineering plans.

 

[mineron]

Phoenix AZ 1885 - On the full sized image of this map you can read the street names and some lot numbers. I remember seeing the plat deed for Waltz's place years ago. Wonder if his place is shown here. You can see how the water runs close to the buildings, so flooding probably effected the whole place.

 

[Hal Croves]

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp, Cubfan64,
I was researching the Feb 22 date simply because someone had listed it as Waltz's DOD. No harm in double checking? Waltz had nine months to get well after JT care, and to attempt another trip to his mine. Then he ended up ill and back in the care of JT before passing. A visual time-line of Waltz's life would be helpful... might close a few "open ends". Has anyone attempted this?

mineron
That is a great image. Makes you wonder just who was piloting the tethered balloon Dyer used to obtain that view? A little something about Dyer... or CJ (Czar James) who may have known Waltz!!

"Although he was an authentic Arizona pioneer, the gentleman with the ex- traordinary first name---Czar---was born in the state of Michigan. What we know from historical records is that C. J. Dyer was born February 2, 1846 in Jackson, Michigan. He was second of the five children of James A. Dyer and Eliza J. Brownell. At age 18, he enlisted in the United States Navy dur- ing the American Civil War. C. J. Dyer never married, and did not father any children. He served in the United States Navy as a “Powder Monkey” aboard the U.S.S. Mattabassett during the Civil War from August 20, 1864 to July 28, 1865. Upon discharge, he received a small pension because of some injury to his eyes. The 1880 census shows that C. J. Dyer lived with Frank and Nellie Jones in Oakland, Alameda County, California. His age was 31, and gave his occu- pation as an artist. C. J. Dyer came to Phoenix, Arizona Territory in the early 1880’s. The exact date is not known. His Phoenix addresses, 27 East Van Buren Street is the only one on record. It was there that C. J. Dyer resided when he died on March 28, 1903 at age 52.

C. J. Dyer arrived in Phoenix when the city was in a period of rapid growth and develop- ment. A personable fellow, “C. J.” as he was popularly known, made acquaintance with many key individuals in town, thus immediately involving himself in local commerce and government affairs. An artist, specifically a cartographer by profession, Dyer was appointed official mapmaker for the growing city. In 1886, Fire Engine Company #1 was organized in Phoenix and C. J. Dyer was made an honorary fireman. C. J. Dyer was a two-term city council member in the Second Ward during the mid- 1880s, and an interim mayor for three and a half months in 1889. Notwithstanding his prominence in Phoenix politics of the time, and his participation in business and industry, no photograph, sketch, or any likeness of him is known to exist. There are pictures of every mayor of Phoenix, except Mayor #18---C. J. Dyer. Historians and genealogists alike hope that some descendant, some near relative of this man, or a descendant of one of his many friends will come forth with a photograph, or artist‘s sketch of him.

C. J. Dyer is buried in Rosedale Cemetery in the Pioneer and Military Memorial Park cemeteries located at the southeast corner of 15th Avenue and Jefferson Street in Phoenix, Arizona. The grave marker is a standard military marble stone. The marble quar- ried in Massachusetts is sculpted in relief, but marked incorrectly, with an ‘A’ for his mid- dle initial instead of inscribed with a ‘J’ for ‘James.’"

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

"That is a great image. Makes you wonder just who was piloting the tethered balloon Dyer used to obtain that view?"

What makes you think an aerial view was required to create that image?

Take care,

Joe

 

[mineron]

The blue part is the most interesting thing I have read about Czar J. Dyer.
He was a city councilman and acting mayor. He was the official city draftsman who drew most of the plats of the city still in use today.
Prior to arriving in Phoenix, he was active in mining in the Prescott area.
Anyone who has ever lived in a small community knows that almost everything and everyone is public, so it is likely Waltz and Dyer knew each other, especially since as they were both prospectors.

 

[mineron]

This describes the early years of Phoenix and shows the heavy Mexican influence and cross border traffic and the general roughness.
Waltz prospecting and mining with Mexicans would have been easy to do. Knowledge of Spanish mines probable.

Report of the Governor of Arizona to the Secretary of the Interior - Page 223
Arizona. Governor - 1879

The inception of the city is within the memory of many of its present residents. It was in 1868 that a small number of pioneers banded together to form its nucleus. In 1870 it was platted. Among the original American residents were W. A. Hancock, John T. Dennis, Ben Block, Thomas Bamum, Jacob Starer, E. Irvine, C. H. Gray, J. D. Monnihon, and J. P. Osborne.

The valley had been occupied for several years, since Jack Swilling, noted for desperate deeds, had come from the Rich Hill diggings to cut a ditch from Salt River and to practice the arts of peace. Friendly Indians were to the south and wild Apaches on the north and east. John T. Dennis, who then lived near the present waterworks site, in the late sixties lost a number of cattle and horses through a raid of the Yavapai Apaches, and only proximity to the friendly Pima and Maricopa tribes saved the infant settlement from continued depredations. In 1871 a traveler wrote that Mrs. J. J. Gardiner was the only American woman in the village, there being at the time about 75 American men. In 1877 Hinton wrote that Phoenix was a town of about 500, half the population being Mexican.

September 5, 1872. the first public school was started. It was a long adobe building on what is now First avenue, about 50 feet south of Washington street, the same edifice serving as court-house. A few years later a little adobe one roomed building was erected on what is known as the Central school block, on North Center street.

In 1871 the county was established, carved from the southern portion of the giant county of Yavapai. The first county record filed was a deed in which was transferred the ownership of the ground on which the Porter Block now stands. The price was $100. The present value of the same ground is about $20,000. In the spring of 1879 the Southern Pacific, building eastward, reached Maricopa, and through Phoenix flowed the entire commerce of northern and central Arizona, then rejoicing in the greatest degree of mining activity ever known to the region. Dusty freight teams, not infrequently with 20"mules to a team, were almost continuous on the road from the railroad north, bearing supplies to the mines. The freighter was the most important of beings, and lived in a freighter's gastronomical paradise on a diet of canned goods straight. Fast freight to Prescott had a tariff of 4 cents a pound, and fast freight meant making the 170 miles in two weeks. There was a strong Mexican flavor to the community, and a knowledge of Spanish was almost essential.
Occasionally on the streets would be seen numbers of squeaking 2-wheeled ox carts laden with fruit, mescal, and other products of Sonora, brought across the international line in serene carelessness of any such thing as tariff.

Phoenix has not been exempt from the usual "wild west" experience of a border town. In its earlier days there were occasional chases after Indians in the northern or eastern hills. There is a tale of how a posse of citizens ran down a band of horse thieves at the junction of the Gila and Salt and buried them, Attila like, in the sands of the river bed. It is remembered that three "rustlers" were found hanging one morning from trees in the northeastern part of the village. Then there was the Mexican who was lynched on the crossbeam of Jim Monnihon's corral gate, and the killing of the fellow who shot Lew Bailey through the window at a dance in the old adobe back of Goldman's corner. There are many who remember how Marshal Enrique Garfias gathered in the cowboys who last attempted to shoot up Main street, after emptying two cowboy saddles by good equestrian pistol work.

In 1879 the town was at its roughest In August of that year it reformed. In the mass of miscellaneous crime there have been 2 stage robberies and 7 killings in a single week. Then the vigilantes came out, composed of about 100 of the best citizens. They took 2 prisoners from Jailer McDonald and hanged them to cottonwood trees on the Washington street side of the plaza. The fellows hanged were McCloskey and Keller, murderers, respectively, of John Le Barr and Luke Monihon. That good job accomplished, the vigilantes assisted Sheriff Thomas in clearing the community of desperadoes and all who had no visible means of support.

July 4, 1887, the Maricopa and Phoenix Railway materialized, giving steam connection with the world, and Phoenix became a city. In 1889 she took a further step in becoming the Territorial capital. March 12, 1895, she assumed the place of southwestern center and metropolis, upon the completion of the Santa Fe, Prescott and Phoenix Railway, through which she not only secured competitive freight rates, but was given outlet for her products to the northern part of the Territory.

 

[Hal Croves]

"What makes you think an aerial view was required to create that image?"

I honestly can not be sure.... but look at the accuracy in the perspective, the shadows cast by clouds. It may have been done by ground based mapping & sketching of each individual structure in the image, but most of the Currier & Ives "birds-eye" views were done with an aerial photograph or by an artist drawing at elevation (from a tethered balloon). In 1885 both technologies were readily available. What makes you think that that the image was done without the help of a balloon?

Acrobatic balloon at Arizona territorial fairgrounds ca. 1908

View attachment 608175​

"Going to great lengths to make these maps, artists would often climb surrounding hills or trees, sometimes even building platforms from which to achieve the "bird's eye" perspective. They also used to take rides in hot air balloons in order to get the proper perspective." Bird's-eye View of Adrian, Michigan, 1866

Also, any thoughts on the location of Waltz's crossing on the Salt? Thanks!

Also, this is worth reading: Mineral investigation of the Superstition Wilderness and contiguous RARE II further planning areas, Gila, Maricopa, and Pinal counties, Arizona
http://azmemory.lib.az.us/cdm4/item.../feddocs&CISOPTR=220&CISOBOX=1&REC=6#metajump

 

[Cubfan64]

Hal - that US Dept. of Interior report by J.E. Jinks has made the rounds within "dutch hunting" circles since it first came out. Did you notice how much gold was found in the analysis of samples from the Supers?

More than a few folks believe the whole "investigation" was a sham with no purpose other than to come up with samples that had no chance of gold being found in them just to prove to the general public that the Superstitions hold no gold whatsoever.

 

[somehiker]

Paul:

That,I would agree is a possibility.
Of particular interest,are samples #5,6,7 and 8,which were all obtained from the area where the LDM has been claimed to have been found.
And cleaned out during the 1990's......am I correct?
I once postulated that evidence discovered during this survey,but not included in the report,was passed on to the group responsible for the dig.
Anyone else have similar suspicions?

Regards:Wayne

ps: I have someone else more qualified (and less nervous) working on the translations.
Will forward his contact info next week.

 

[mineron]

When I got the original image I read that the Phoenix Birdseye view is looking northeast from Shaw butte, though Dyer was skilled enough to draw in memory. I read of two fords and one ferry that where used in Waltz's time, will have to look them up before I can post them. There were other wealthy Dyer's in Phoenix at the time. They were from upstate New York and in the brotherhood, I think. Odd there is no, very little, info on Waltz or Dyer from their Phoenix carrying on's, especially Dyer who was very connected. This leads me to think of record purging for whatever reason.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

[And cleaned out during the 1990's......am I correct?
I once postulated that evidence discovered during this survey,but not included in the report,was passed on to the group responsible for the dig.
Anyone else have similar suspicions? icon_scratch]

You are correct.....in the first part.

The group who worked the "Silver Chief", were led to it by a third party, who did not participate in the dig.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

mineron,

"I read of two fords and one ferry that where used in Waltz's time, will have to look them up before I can post them." It would be a big help. I am reading about the Arizona Ter. Fair which was canceled in 1891 due to the Salt River flooding. It first began in 1884, so there is a chance that Waltz may have visited the fair in the years just before his passing.

I am researching historical aerial photographs of AZ and IF I am correct, and the stone charts were made from an aerial image, then finding that exact image should be possible. Right now I think that Odd S. Halseth (1893-1966) may have taken the earliest aerial photographs in AZ. He seems to be someone worth researching.

View attachment 608432​

"Lieutenant Edwin Bobzien and Technical Sergeant R. A. Stockwell pose with their state-of-the-art camera in front of a Douglas O-2H. Photo by Odd S. Halseth. Charles Lindbergh's high-profile expeditions in Arizona, New Mexico and the Yucatan in the late 1920s piqued interest in the aerial photography of ancient sites."

"Odd S. Halseth (1893-1966) became the first City Archaeologist of Phoenix in 1929. Photographs on an exhibit document the excavation of the Hohokam platform mound dated 1000 A.D. located at the Pueblo Grande Museum while Halseth was the director. The collection spans 1929 to the late 1950s which demonstrates the years that archaeologists dedicate themselves to carefully "reconstruct" the past."

Any thoughts on Halseth?

About the Florence topo... it was surveyed in 1909, but the topo that I have seen is a revised issue dated 1936. Anyone know where to find the original 1909 work? Thanks!