Gregory E. Davis
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Hello Cubfan64: I also have no fight with anyone. Just relaying the facts as I know them. Greg
STORIES........
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Gregory E. Davis
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Good evening All: I do not know who took care of Carl's estate after he died. I do know some of this stuff was put in a storage locker. When the rent was up, the contents of the locker were auctioned. Some one in the West part of the Valley made the purchase to resale the individual items. I met him once but that was a long time ago. Most of what he showed me was miscellaneous stuff. I did not purchase anything for he was still going through the items. I do not know if he got the silver bar. I will see if I can find his name and address. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
Matthew Roberts
Bronze Member
Gregory, cubfan64,
All I know is how the story was told to me and the person who told the story didn't mention the word Nickel on the bar. It may very well be he had been told the story himself by another person.
It has been said that Great Western never did any precious metal casting but that is not necessarily true. It's main industry was commercial castings but did also engage in private and small company castings. Just like any other business they did not limit themselves to one single product, customer or metal.
I do not know if the bar Carl Boderick holding is silver, nickel or another metal. I only know the story the way I heard it.
Here is the pencil rubbing of Carl's bar there is no word Nickel anywhere on the rubbing:
Matthew Roberts
Bronze Member
Cubfan64,
Again I have no knowledge of the Broderick silver bar beyond the story I was told but do know one thing that may be important to the conversation.
When identifying metal in a casting the word such as "Nickel" is never actually spelled out. The forging/casting industry has always used the symbol Ni or simply and more often the number 28 to identify "Nickel."
Unless there is an overwhelming reason the metal in a casting will be confused with another metal no marking whatsoever is used.
Looking closely at the rubbing of the bar the inset is the exact size to fit in to the depression in Boderick's bar. There would be no room for the word Nickel or even Ni or 28 to be marked outside the XXX's.
Maybe gollum was told this about the word Nickel from someone who himself heard the explanation ? Did the person actually see "Nickel" on the bar ?
I would have to say (my opinion) that there was no marking of any kind, either Nickel - Ni or 28 on Carl's bar.
Again, just my personal opinion.
Matthew
Again I have no knowledge of the Broderick silver bar beyond the story I was told but do know one thing that may be important to the conversation.
When identifying metal in a casting the word such as "Nickel" is never actually spelled out. The forging/casting industry has always used the symbol Ni or simply and more often the number 28 to identify "Nickel."
Unless there is an overwhelming reason the metal in a casting will be confused with another metal no marking whatsoever is used.
Looking closely at the rubbing of the bar the inset is the exact size to fit in to the depression in Boderick's bar. There would be no room for the word Nickel or even Ni or 28 to be marked outside the XXX's.
Maybe gollum was told this about the word Nickel from someone who himself heard the explanation ? Did the person actually see "Nickel" on the bar ?
I would have to say (my opinion) that there was no marking of any kind, either Nickel - Ni or 28 on Carl's bar.
Again, just my personal opinion.
Matthew
matthew.....from what i'm reading on the bar it says great western smelting and refining...tells me they weren't a mining company but a refinery...there used to be quite a few refinery's in the phoenix area before the epa shut them down....a refinery doesn't just refine or smelt one certain metal but will smelt or refine any metal that they get a contract for...at least that's how it worked at every refinery i ever dealt with...i have a friend in tucson that owns a small refinery and that's the way it is with him also...just because a refinery was known for smelting nickel doesn't mean they wouldn't contract for other metals...matter of fact smelters loved to do precious metals because they could steal what they wanted and no one would be the wiser...as far as carl's bar goes i have heard the story from a couple guys around here...i could be mistaken but i thought one of them told me he had seen the bar....i'll try and get hold of them and find out
Matthew Roberts
Bronze Member
azdave35,
You are absolutely correct. A refinery, casting, forging operation would not be in business long if it limited itself to one customer and one metal only.
I remember some of the old Phoenix refinery operations, they not only refined the metals to their purest form, the made the molds, poured the metal, stamped or used castings or forgings to shape and mark the ingots to the individual customers specifications and designs.
Even small refineries had the ability to melt, draw off impurities, pour, mold, stamp, cast and forge to large and small customer desires.
Matthew
Gregory E. Davis
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I am going to try to attach a copy of the picture of the silver bar that I took when I visited Carl in 1999.
Hope it does not end up up side down. Cordially, Greg Davis
Hope it does not end up up side down. Cordially, Greg Davis
Matthew Roberts
Bronze Member
Hi Gregory,
I think the photo proves there was no "Nickel" marking on the bar.
And that would be consistent with pretty much all refining, casting, forging operations. There just is no compelling reason or need to designate the metal.
When refineries etc. do need to mark product it is most always with a number as in 28 for Nickel or just simply Ni.
Your photo and the pencil rubbing seems to be a match.
Matthew
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cactusjumper
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Matthew Roberts
Bronze Member
cactusjumper,
I'm looking at what you are talking about but cannot make it out clearly from my vantage point. It does appear to read 35 ANGELES.
I'm not sure if it just should be LOS ANGELES and the photo is distorted in that area or it is 35 ANGELES ?
Maybe Gregory or someone has a better angle or sharper view to clarify.
If it is a 35 and relates to the metal, 35 is Bromine and a liquid so I don't know how that would apply ?
Again, I don't know 100% if the Boderick bar is silver or nickel or something else, all I know is the story the way I heard it.
I am fairly intrigued with all the "bar" stories from the Superstitions from Boderick to cave of the golden bars.
Matthew
Gregory E. Davis
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It reads "Los Angeles", No Question. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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cactusjumper
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Greg,
Believe you are correct. So, how does Los Angeles fit into the "treasure"?
Take care,
Joe
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Cubfan64
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Interesting stuff - I wish Gollum could weigh in as he didn't give many specifics as to his reasoning why he felt the bar was Ni and not silver.
Joe - what is your theory as to what "Los Angeles" has to do with the bar?
Joe - what is your theory as to what "Los Angeles" has to do with the bar?
Cubfan64
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Ok - did a little bit of digging and found a few things of interest - again rest assured I'm taking no sides in any of this - just putting information out there.
Below is a short article from the Pacific Marine Review Jan 1921 talking about the Great Western Smelting and Refining Co. - No completely overwhelming information here, but it does seem fairly clear to me that their main purpose was to produce babbitt metal ingots for use in multiple worldwide mfg. purposes. I feel comfortable saying that a company such as GWS&R could have been successful by staying solely in the babbitt ingot business and never getting into any precious metal refining.
I also found a photo of a Ni babbitt ingot produced by GWS&R that looks very similar to the one Carl had with the exception of the word "Nickel."
Finally, I did just a little photoshop work on the image from Greg to try to make some of the letters stand out and I'm confident that the words "Seattle, San Francisco and Los Angeles" are the words across the bottom.
I might be mistaken, but look very closely at the enhanced image of Carl's bar on the right side, I could swear I see an "L" where the L from Nickel appears on the babbitt bar. In fact, an argument could be made that in the 2 areas where it could say "nickel," the bar appears to be hammered and/or altered in such a way as to damage the lettering. The G and R from Great Western Smelting and Refining have been damaged/removed as well.
I really don't know whether it's truly silver or nickel or ? But most of the evidence I came across so far suggests the odds of it being silver are not terribly high.
Still wishing Gollum could pop in here.
Below is a short article from the Pacific Marine Review Jan 1921 talking about the Great Western Smelting and Refining Co. - No completely overwhelming information here, but it does seem fairly clear to me that their main purpose was to produce babbitt metal ingots for use in multiple worldwide mfg. purposes. I feel comfortable saying that a company such as GWS&R could have been successful by staying solely in the babbitt ingot business and never getting into any precious metal refining.
I also found a photo of a Ni babbitt ingot produced by GWS&R that looks very similar to the one Carl had with the exception of the word "Nickel."
Finally, I did just a little photoshop work on the image from Greg to try to make some of the letters stand out and I'm confident that the words "Seattle, San Francisco and Los Angeles" are the words across the bottom.
I might be mistaken, but look very closely at the enhanced image of Carl's bar on the right side, I could swear I see an "L" where the L from Nickel appears on the babbitt bar. In fact, an argument could be made that in the 2 areas where it could say "nickel," the bar appears to be hammered and/or altered in such a way as to damage the lettering. The G and R from Great Western Smelting and Refining have been damaged/removed as well.
I really don't know whether it's truly silver or nickel or ? But most of the evidence I came across so far suggests the odds of it being silver are not terribly high.
Still wishing Gollum could pop in here.
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Gregory E. Davis
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Here is a copy of the companies letterhead. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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cactusjumper
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Paul,
Pretty much what you came up with. Couldn't see a silver bar being part of a treasure from Los Angeles. I also felt that the original lettering had been altered. Such fakes with accompanying stories, are all part of the game.
Very nice piece of work by you. I assumed you would be the one to come up with the answers.
Take care,
Joe
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cactusjumper
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Believe you can find out all you ever wanted to know about nickel ingots by pasting this in your search engine..... Great Western Smelting and Refining Co. nickel ingots.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
Matthew Roberts
Bronze Member
Cubfan64,
I have to agree with your conclusion about Carl Bodericks silver/nickel bar. I had no idea if it was silver , nickel or any other metal. I just knew the story as it was told to me and saw the photo of Carl with the bar like everyone else.
Since it appears the bar is not silver, do you think Carl scratched the wording off the bar ? Do you think Andy Barrik also was part of the switch because Andy told the story that Carl's silver bar was stolen from the Silver King and buried north of Government Well where Carl found it ?
Matthew
