STORIES........

[azdave35]

Not trying to belittle or discredit anyone Dave. Just offering some thoughts as to another possible explanation for what doesn't seem to add up about the bar in question.
As for Carroll. He never got to see exactly what he had found, other than signs it was a number of ingots of some kind, since his backstabbing "partners" stole it from him before he had the chance to dig them up himself. Can't make sport of him in any case.
If they were babbitt bars as well, then I'm sure that Carroll would have been amused to see the look on their faces when they found their betrayal had gone wrong, and the loot wasn't worth the trouble of hauling it to a scrap dealer.

Regards:SH.

if you are going to play detective then think about this...if those bars carroll's partners stole were babbitt....his partners would not have left the state and everything they own..they would have just waited until carroll got there and showed carroll the bars..these men left the state and were never heard from again...they abandoned their homes and possessions and got the hell out of dodge...which should tell you they were more afraid of the feds than they were of carroll..there is more to this story than i have said here

 

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[sailaway]

There are 7 different types of Babbitt bars. Great Western Grade 2 Babbitt, The word Nickel is not on that grade Bar because it is an alloy made up of 89% tin, 7.5% antimony, and 3.5% copper.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

azdave35 makes some excellent points.
Unless someone has direct unquestionable knowledge, no one can be 100% sure what actually transpired.
Jumping to the easiest conclusion or assumption does not always work out well or lead you to the right answer.
Playing detective means looking at ALL the possibilities, not just latching on to the first thing that seems to explain the situation.
By no means have all the possibilities been looked at concerning the silver bar story. Especially when the theft of the silver is involved and the thieves are trying to change the identity of that silver.

azdave35 knows this but many others may not. As an example, smelting and refining are not the same, they are two very different processes.
Almost all mines even in the mid-late 19th century had the ability to smelt ore but hardly any the ability to refine it.
Smelters at the mines would add a special chemical mix to the gold and silver before it was refined in case it was stolen and recast it could be analized and proven to belong to that specific mine. Today isotopes are added for that very purpose.
Thieves stealing lets say smelted Silver King silver would be wise to melt it down, add another chemical and mold it into a different form (cast mold) with different identification. A stolen or refurbished Great Western mold that had been discarded would fill that bill perfectly.
Great Western may have had absolutely nothing to do with the whole event other than one of their cast molds was used by the thieves.
The thieves may have even wanted to make the bars look like nickel until they could get them refined or sold to someone.
As azdave 35 so importantly pointed out, there is more to the story than is generally known.

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

azdave35 makes some excellent points.
Unless someone has direct unquestionable knowledge, no one can be 100% sure what actually transpired.
Jumping to the easiest conclusion or assumption does not always work out well or lead you to the right answer.
Playing detective means looking at ALL the possibilities, not just latching on to the first thing that seems to explain the situation.
By no means have all the possibilities been looked at concerning the silver bar story. Especially when the theft of the silver is involved and the thieves are trying to change the identity of that silver.

azdave35 knows this but many others may not. As an example, smelting and refining are not the same, they are two very different processes.
Almost all mines even in the mid-late 19th century had the ability to smelt ore but hardly any the ability to refine it.
Smelters at the mines would add a special chemical mix to the gold and silver before it was refined in case it was stolen and recast it could be analized and proven to belong to that specific mine. Today isotopes are added for that very purpose.
Thieves stealing lets say smelted Silver King silver would be wise to melt it down, add another chemical and mold it into a different form (cast mold) with different identification. A stolen or refurbished Great Western mold that had been discarded would fill that bill perfectly.
Great Western may have had absolutely nothing to do with the whole event other than one of their cast molds was used by the thieves.
The thieves may have even wanted to make the bars look like nickel until they could get them refined or sold to someone.
As azdave 35 so importantly pointed out, there is more to the story than is generally known.

Matthew

for the benefit of those that do not already know this...smelting is accomplished by mixing ores or concentrates with a flux (borax,soda ash, silica and niter which is an oxidizer such as potassium nitrate)..then cooked in the furnace at 2000 degrees...if the flux is correct the impurities will go into the slag...then poured into a mold....you then have a bar which contains all metals..gold,silver,copper iron etc..which is then sent to the refinery where they use a chemical process to separate the metals....like Matthew said...almost any idiot can smelt...but refining is a game better left to experts

 

[Honest Samuel]

Research all treasure stories before searching. Many great interesting stories. Good hunting and good luck.

 

[Carl995]

for the benefit of those that do not already know this...smelting is accomplished by mixing ores or concentrates with a flux (borax,soda ash, silica and niter which is an oxidizer such as potassium nitrate)..then cooked in the furnace at 2000 degrees...if the flux is correct the impurities will go into the slag...then poured into a mold....you then have a bar which contains all metals..gold,silver,copper iron etc..which is then sent to the refinery where they use a chemical process to separate the metals....like Matthew said...almost any idiot can smelt...but refining is a game better left to experts

I remember the 1st time I ran gold, I was around 21 yrs old at that time. my dad was watching me. Using Aqua regia. In about an hour I poured brown looking mud into a crucible & put it in my oven. Then when I poured it into water it bubbled & steamed like crazy. The nugget was about the size of a pin pong ball, my dad's eyes lit up like crazy!!! It assayed at 4 9's, 99.99 I did it that way till I got 1 oz coin molds. Later on I ran a batch & for some reason a bunch of iron got dropped with the zink & gold. I called a friend that owns a recycling co. & he had the same problem. My dad called ASU & made a luncheon appointment with a professor. We met & he told us how to do it when there's a lot of iron. My dad always used stuff called DP leach, He'd run the rock thru his chipmonk crusher, then thru the flower mill to shaker table & fineally to vats with DP Leach all which took a day & a half. I have never dealt with silver.

 

[cactusjumper]

Dave,

I accept your belief that the bar was silver. From this point on, that's also my view of this story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

if you are going to play detective then think about this...if those bars carroll's partners stole were babbitt....his partners would not have left the state and everything they own..they would have just waited until carroll got there and showed carroll the bars..these men left the state and were never heard from again...they abandoned their homes and possessions and got the hell out of dodge...which should tell you they were more afraid of the feds than they were of carroll..there is more to this story than i have said here

Must have been quite a haul then.....more than a stack of silver bars would be worth to them OR the Fed.
But I don't have any stake in the story, and it's yours and Carrol's to tell, so I'll be happy to quit speculating on it and merely follow the thread as I have time.
Sorry if I've offended anyone with my responses.
Carry on

Regards:SH.

 

[sailaway]

Going by my faulty memory, when reading the Bark Notes held by the Sup. Historic Soc.(corrections requested), wasn't there a newspaper article within the collection that Mason of the Silver King told of burying a wagon load of silver ingots from the mine somewhere near where the soldier was killed? However that location was reported to be close by Church Rock east of Miners Needle. The grave was said to be somewhere around half way inline between the Silver cache and the rock formation.

I do not want to offend anyone, but with the history of the area, unless you can prove the men that were thought to have stolen the bars of silver can be traced to another location, then they may have just found themselves taking a dust bath. All over some worthless Babbitt bars that were designed for low speed applications such as windmills. Was there really silver bars found that were switched for the Babbitt bars? Recasting the Silver to the Great Western babbitt molds does not seem likely to me. Is it likely that the grade 2 Babbitt Bars were in that area because of the claims that were being worked there? yes. I know of at least 4 claims that are right there at Gov. Well that were worked heavily for years, one produced a lot of gold. I have black sand/heavies in my collection from the creek bed north of the tanks. The creek bed is so full of targets that make it worthless to metal detect there, as can not set discriminate to levels where searching can produce good results.

 

[azdave35]

Going by my faulty memory, when reading the Bark Notes held by the Sup. Historic Soc.(corrections requested), wasn't there a newspaper article within the collection that Mason of the Silver King told of burying a wagon load of silver ingots from the mine somewhere near where the soldier was killed? However that location was reported to be close by Church Rock east of Miners Needle. The grave was said to be somewhere around half way inline between the Silver cache and the rock formation.

years ago i read a story in a treasure magazine about a thief that worked at the silver king mine...he was stealing bars and hanging them on wires in the outhouse..(he reasoned that nobody would stick their heads in the toilet looking for stolen bars)....a flash flood came through and washed the outhouse and bars down the silver king wash..supposedly a few of the bars have turned up over the years...i read this in a treasure magazine so take it for what it is

 

[gollum]

matthew.....from what i'm reading on the bar it says great western smelting and refining...tells me they weren't a mining company but a refinery...there used to be quite a few refinery's in the phoenix area before the epa shut them down....a refinery doesn't just refine or smelt one certain metal but will smelt or refine any metal that they get a contract for...at least that's how it worked at every refinery i ever dealt with...i have a friend in tucson that owns a small refinery and that's the way it is with him also...just because a refinery was known for smelting nickel doesn't mean they wouldn't contract for other metals...matter of fact smelters loved to do precious metals because they could steal what they wanted and no one would be the wiser...as far as carl's bar goes i have heard the story from a couple guys around here...i could be mistaken but i thought one of them told me he had seen the bar....i'll try and get hold of them and find out

Hey Dave,

I don't think anybody is saying that Broderick faked the bar. More likely, someone bought it (or found it in a shed), scratched off the word "NICKEL" and buried it again as a joke. Maybe someone made it and hoaxed Broderick. No way to tell now.

What I can say with 100% certainty is that it was a Nickel Babbitt Ingot. The absolute giveaway are the four "X's" at each end. The number of "X's" indicate the hardness of the metal. If it were anything other than nickel, there would be no need for the four "X's". I don't spend a ton of time hunting the Dutchman. I like the lesser known stories. This was one I was interested in, because there was a picture and rubbing of the bar. I spent several days researching Great Western and downloading pics of their ingots. If you look at the pics, it is evident the word nickel was scratched/sanded off.

Before I posted what I found on DesertUSA, I spent a couple of days asking people about Broderick (ask Greg Davis). I didn't want to embarrass any family who might still be around. I didn't know the man, so I would never call him a liar. I just know the bar isn't silver.

Joe,

HAHAHA What did Paul get to the bottom of? I made the post Paul referenced in January, and y'all spent three pages arguing the fact to finally get around to where you started. It was a "Four X" Nickel Babbitt Ingot. You can go to (I know we can't link to other forums) DesertUSA to the "True Stories - Chasing the Legend" Section, and look at the second page of the "Silver Bar Found North of Government Well" Thread to see my original post. One of the reasons I stayed away from TNet was arguments like that. Instead of taking the time to google "Great Western Smelting Nickel Ingot", and spending five minutes looking at pictures and reading, everybody would rather argue in circles, then get back to where y'all started. I love you folks, but JEEEEEEEEEEEEZUS, its like pulling teeth sometimes.

 

[azdave35]

Hey Dave,

I don't think anybody is saying that Broderick faked the bar. More likely, someone bought it (or found it in a shed), scratched off the word "NICKEL" and buried it again as a joke. Maybe someone made it and hoaxed Broderick. No way to tell now.

What I can say with 100% certainty is that it was a Nickel Babbitt Ingot. The absolute giveaway are the four "X's" at each end. The number of "X's" indicate the hardness of the metal. If it were anything other than nickel, there would be no need for the four "X's". I don't spend a ton of time hunting the Dutchman. I like the lesser known stories. This was one I was interested in, because there was a picture and rubbing of the bar. I spent several days researching Great Western and downloading pics of their ingots. If you look at the pics, it is evident the word nickel was scratched/sanded off.

Before I posted what I found on DesertUSA, I spent a couple of days asking people about Broderick (ask Greg Davis). I didn't want to embarrass any family who might still be around. I didn't know the man, so I would never call him a liar. I just know the bar isn't silver.

Joe,

HAHAHA What did Paul get to the bottom of? I made the post Paul referenced in January, and y'all spent three pages arguing the fact to finally get around to where you started. It was a "Four X" Nickel Babbitt Ingot. You can go to (I know we can't link to other forums) DesertUSA to the "True Stories - Chasing the Legend" Section, and look at the second page of the "Silver Bar Found North of Government Well" Thread to see my original post. One of the reasons I stayed away from TNet was arguments like that. Instead of taking the time to google "Great Western Smelting Nickel Ingot", and spending five minutes looking at pictures and reading, everybody would rather argue in circles, then get back to where y'all started. I love you folks, but JEEEEEEEEEEEEZUS, its like pulling teeth sometimes.

mike...like i said before..i dont know what that bar is made of as i've never seen it.. ....neither you or paul has seen the bar so i wouldn't take your word that it isn't silver..but i know at least one guy that has seen it..he said it was silver and i'd take his word over a bunch of supposition....i don't see any need to kill a legend unless someone has tested that bar..and i mean an assay...some things are better off left alone...kinda like a sleeping dog

 

[gollum]

mike...like i said before..i dont know what that bar is made of as i've never seen it.. ....neither you or paul has seen the bar so i wouldn't take your word that it isn't silver..but i know at least one guy that has seen it..he said it was silver and i'd take his word over a bunch of supposition....i don't see any need to kill a legend unless someone has tested that bar..and i mean an assay...some things are better off left alone...kinda like a sleeping dog

Buddy,

if you want to believe its silver, then more power to you. I researched the sh** out of it (because I was going to hunt the story). The **ONLY** reason the four X's are there is to show the hardness of the Nickel. If it were silver, those four X's would not be there. I have seen more than a couple **EXACTLY** like it (except for the word NICKEL on each end). They sell for about $25 - $40 for a four pound bar. All you also have to do is read the print inside the black circle of the Letterhead Picture: "Stereotype, Linotype, and Electrotype, Babbitt Metals, Ingot Brass, Phosphor Bronze, Solder, Lead". No silver. No gold. You also have to remember, Greg Davis saw and photographed the bar.

Believe what you want, just don't spend any time or money chasing the story. I promise you that nobody wanted it to be real more than me. Hell, I wanted to go find the rest of them.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

Buddy,

if you want to believe its silver, then more power to you. I researched the sh** out of it (because I was going to hunt the story). The **ONLY** reason the four X's are there is to show the hardness of the Nickel. If it were silver, those four X's would not be there. I have seen more than a couple **EXACTLY** like it (except for the word NICKEL on each end). They sell for about $25 - $40 for a four pound bar. All you also have to do is read the print inside the black circle of the Letterhead Picture: "Stereotype, Linotype, and Electrotype, Babbitt Metals, Ingot Brass, Phosphor Bronze, Solder, Lead". No silver. No gold. You also have to remember, Greg Davis saw and photographed the bar.

Believe what you want, just don't spend any time or money chasing the story. I promise you that nobody wanted it to be real more than me. Hell, I wanted to go find the rest of them.

Mike

mike...believe me...i have no interest in looking for the rest of those bars...if i was going to invest time in looking for a treasure it sure wouldn't be that one....a couple local guys that did spend some time looking for the bars...one of them knew carl and that's how they got onto the story...i know a little more about it than i am letting on...if i were going to work something by govt well it would be a certain mine...if you visited the area you drove right past it on the dirt road in

 

[cactusjumper]

Buddy,

if you want to believe its silver, then more power to you. I researched the sh** out of it (because I was going to hunt the story). The **ONLY** reason the four X's are there is to show the hardness of the Nickel. If it were silver, those four X's would not be there. I have seen more than a couple **EXACTLY** like it (except for the word NICKEL on each end). They sell for about $25 - $40 for a four pound bar. All you also have to do is read the print inside the black circle of the Letterhead Picture: "Stereotype, Linotype, and Electrotype, Babbitt Metals, Ingot Brass, Phosphor Bronze, Solder, Lead". No silver. No gold. You also have to remember, Greg Davis saw and photographed the bar.

Believe what you want, just don't spend any time or money chasing the story. I promise you that nobody wanted it to be real more than me. Hell, I wanted to go find the rest of them.

Mike

Mike,

Hope all is well with you. I did go back to DUSA and read the entire thread. Believe you mentioned all that can be found on that particular bar. Don't know what else can be said on this topic. Dave is a really good guy and does know his stuff. Beyond that, he's loyal to his friends.......which some may consider a fault, I don't.

Carolyn and I will try to make it to this year's Rendezvous, and hope to see you guys there.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Mike,

Hope all is well with you. I did go back to DUSA and read the entire thread. Believe you mentioned all that can be found on that particular bar. Don't know what else can be said on this topic. Dave is a really good guy and does know his stuff. Beyond that, he's loyal to his friends.......which some may consider a fault, I don't.

Carolyn and I will try to make it to this year's Rendezvous, and hope to see you guys there.

Take care,

Joe

joe..i'm going to try to make it to the rendezvous....might bring carroll if he wants to go

 

[gollum]

All y'all better show up at the damn Rendezvous. Since I am moving to Az, I will take no excuses! HAHAHA

Dave,

I was ready to spend a while camped in the area and work every square inch in a quarter mile radius of Government Well with a two box and magnetometer. One thing I really want to look for is a little gopher hole a Search and Rescue Person told me about two years ago. They met a guy out near a certain trailhead. Said the guy was nice, but very cagey. They saw the guy literally disappear right near the trail. They saw the same guy every year about the same time, in the same area, for many years. They figured the guy had found an old shaft, and worked it every year. They never even looked for the mine, because they were scared the guy might not be so nice if they saw him underground.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

All y'all better show up at the damn Rendezvous. Since I am moving to Az, I will take no excuses! HAHAHA

Dave,

I was ready to spend a while camped in the area and work every square inch in a quarter mile radius of Government Well with a two box and magnetometer. One thing I really want to look for is a little gopher hole a Search and Rescue Person told me about two years ago. They met a guy out near a certain trailhead. Said the guy was nice, but very cagey. They saw the guy literally disappear right near the trail. They saw the same guy every year about the same time, in the same area, for many years. They figured the guy had found an old shaft, and worked it every year. They never even looked for the mine, because they were scared the guy might not be so nice if they saw him underground.

Mike

i hadn't heard you are moving here...when you planning on making the move?......speaking of govt well...chuck crawford was working a mine with small veins of gold in quartz not far from govt well...he was getting some good jewellery rock out of it

 

[gollum]

i hadn't heard you are moving here...when you planning on making the move?......speaking of govt well...chuck crawford was working a mine with small veins of gold in quartz not far from govt well...he was getting some good jewellery rock out of it

Been here since the beginning of June. For a lot of years, Jim Hatt kept trying to get me to move here. He always said "You can't really hunt the Superstitions and live in Los Angeles." For now, I am up in Dewey. Twenty degrees cooler, and only half a tank of gas from AJ. HAHAHA Nicer....except for the damn fire.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

Been here since the beginning of June. For a lot of years, Jim Hatt kept trying to get me to move here. He always said "You can't really hunt the Superstitions and live in Los Angeles." For now, I am up in Dewey. Twenty degrees cooler, and only half a tank of gas from AJ. HAHAHA Nicer....except for the damn fire.

Mike

i think the fire is about contained but now there is a flood up there...lol....