Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[audigger53]

If I had know then, that the State HiWay Marker and Rest Stop by Silly Mountain was going away when they widened the road to 4 lanes, HWY 89/60 between Florence Junction and Apache Junction, I would have taken a picture of it. "This is where the Dutchman would leave the stage to go to his mine.
Waltz didn't take the stage. Waltzr did. Waltz became a US Citizen to be able to file claims. Waltzr didn't.
It is my firm belief that the "LDM" had nothing to do with Waltz, except to get free drinks. The gold he had could easily been from Hi Grading. He never had much cash or gold to show off with. He homesteaded his house on the then edge of Phoenix. He was buried in a paupers grave. Nothing he did that was recorded ever showed him as having money from a "Rich Gold Mine". I would love to be convinced otherwise, but I would want facts.
Fact he went to Queen Creek for extra supplies instead of Phoenix. Queen Creek was closer to the entrance of the Supes than Phoenix was to where he was prospecting. So not First Water Trailhead, but the Peralta Trail head. IE SW entrance to the Supes. That's quite a ways from Silly Mountain where the State Marker was. If you look at the outside of the Supes by Silly Mountain you will find a gold mine to the north of Hieroglyphic Canyon. I believe that was Waltzr's "mine".

Now if someone can make a better tale or location from the actual facts, that would interest me.
BTW I saw the State Marker every time we went to Williams AFB from Florence and back from 1960-1964 when we lived in Florence. As my father was a retired Commander from the Navy. Williams was for shopping and the doctors.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Joe

Is just a matter of faith .
If I would say to my son " i have this thing from that place " , my son will believed without any doubt because i never lied to him .
And , if I would say the same thing to my best friend who knows me from my childhood , he would believed me too .
Not evidences required in this cases for these statements . Are only " subjective hear-say" for third persons who were only spectators at this saga .

Marius,

I'm afraid my "faith" has been sorely tested by a number of Dutch Hunters who I thought were my friends. I've had someone stay overnight in my home and then report everything they saw and heard to people who, you might say, did not have my best interests at heart. These days I know not to expect honesty.

While I don't believe the man who showed Tom and Bob these documents and ore sample was being deceitful, I have serious doubts as to his source. Everyone will have to make up their own minds as to that. "Good" sources have been known to lie in their teeth, so to speak.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

Joe

We have to look if the lies have a motivation or is only a bad habit .
When somebody is not a pathological liar and tell a lie , then , behind the lie exist a motivation . When you know the motivation , you know the half truth .

 

[somehiker]

Only 7 on this thread though.
Wonder which subject is getting all the attention ?

Not sure who the source(s) for this part of the story is/are, but the way I remember it goes something like this....

After he was rescued by Rhiney Petrache from his flooded property, Waltz was taken to Julia's boarding house, suffering from exposure which led to further complications...apparently pneumonia.
He later asked Rhiney Petrache to go out to his homestead....after the flood waters had receded....to dig up the candle box from under the fireplace as I recall, and bring it to him at Julia's place.

I don't have the time to look up the source, so perhaps someone more knowledgeable can supply a reference to this version of events.

This would explain how the candlebox and ore remained in place during the flood, since it was buried beneath a hearth, which could have remained relatively intact, along with all or part of the fireplace.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Only 7 on this thread though.
Wonder which subject is getting all the attention ?

Not sure who the source(s) for this part of the story is/are, but the way I remember it goes something like this....

After he was rescued by Rhiney Petrache from his flooded property, Waltz was taken to Julia's boarding house, suffering from exposure which led to further complications...apparently pneumonia.
He later asked Rhiney Petrache to go out to his homestead....after the flood waters had receded....to dig up the candle box from under the fireplace as I recall, and bring it to him at Julia's place.

I don't have the time to look up the source, so perhaps someone more knowledgeable can supply a reference to this version of events.

This would explain how the candlebox and ore remained in place during the flood, since it was buried beneath a hearth, which could have remained relatively intact, along with all or part of the fireplace.

Regards:SH.

Wayne,

It does ring a faint bell. Sims Ely, Jim Bark or both, would be my guess.

Hope all is well with you,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

OK, the story comes from Sims Ely (p. 111), but does not appear in Jim Bark's notes. I believe Ely's book was heavily edited and some things left out.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Hi Joe:

All's good, and very busy with work and other projects on the go.

Of the two you mention, which one would have been able to learn the most from Rhiney....assuming the "candlebox story" originated with him ?
The tale seems plausible, and it's likely IMO, that that ore and the clothes on his back would have been all that Waltz had to his name post flood.
Without the candlebox, and the reputation he had already attained, I would think that he would have been forgotten within a very short time after his death.

Regards:Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

In my opinion, of the two, I believe Bark would have been miles ahead of Sims Ely and I'm a well known Ely fan. What do you think?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

SDCFIA wrote

Ha, Ha. In the very next paragraph, we're assured that taking Hood's Sarsaparilla will make you strong and healthy. Don't bet the farm on newspaper adventure stories. Like today's news, there's always a spin.

Have you tried Hood's Sarsaparilla?

　
SDCFIA also wrote

Thanks for the insight. This being the case, I guess we can relegate the "Waltz rich matchbox ore" allegations to the rather large scrap heap of LDM unsubstantiated hearsay.

Now a question about the entire "Waltz candle box" scenario itself. How was it that the candle box survived the big flood that allegedly destroyed Waltz's home and property - sending him up a tree in order to survive it himself - then ended up under his death bed at the site of his passing?

YOU are certainly welcome to relegate the famous matchbox in any way you desire; however some of us are not so willing to write it off. Actions speak louder than words. If that gold ore from which the matchbox was made, did NOT come from the Waltz deathbed candle box of ore, why on Earth would Holmes or anyone else bother to have it made into a matchbox, or the other pieces of jewelry made from the ore? See a problem with your logic now? Why bother to pretend it came from Waltz when he or anyone else could have claimed it was from the lost Adams, which was FAR more famous in the early days than the lost Dutchman. OR the Doc Thorne mine or any of a dozen others much more well known in that time period. Then remember that Dick Holmes, Julia and Reiney had a long lasting grievance over the deathbed ore, and all of them went looking for the LDM.

Stop picturing a massive flash flood, wall of water type situation as what hit Waltz's homestead too. The only photos I could find of that famous flood that struck Phoenix were more like just high water spreading all over, nothing like any flash flood.

Supposedly Waltz was rescued from a tree, quite understandable as a desire to keep out of the cold and nasty flood waters. Not that he was THROWN into a tree by a wall of water, he obviously climbed up to get out of it.

ALL of our sources are open to suspicion, however I still hold that the ore itself, which still exists in the famous matchbox and several other pieces of jewelry, are the best key to identify the mine itself. This kind of ore comparison has been done to successfully identify other lost mines, as with the once famous Breyfogle. And while it may be tempting to think of some alternate mine as the source like the Coarsegold, the person that Tom K and Bob C spoke to with the documents now so under question marks insisted that Waltz's ore had already been compared with every known gold source in AZ and without finding a match. As the Coarsegold, along with (supposedly) every other known gold mine in AZ would have been among the minerals being compared, I doubt this avenue will prove productive.

Side thing here and while I would definitely not call Jim Bark a baldfaced liar, he was a human being and like all humans capable of errors, and also capable of having his own agendas. Remember Bark wanted to find the LDM himself.
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you find.
Oroblanco


　

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

In my opinion, of the two, I believe Bark would have been miles ahead of Sims Ely and I'm a well known Ely fan. What do you think?

Take care,

Joe

Regardless of which writer was ahead of the other, did both believe in the box of ore under Waltz's bed at Julia's boarding house ?

 

[sdcfia]

SDCFIA wrote
Have you tried Hood's Sarsaparilla?

No, but if we're to believe all we read in the papers, perhaps I should. Couldn't hurt, I guess.
　

YOU are certainly welcome to relegate the famous matchbox in any way you desire; however some of us are not so willing to write it off. Actions speak louder than words. If that gold ore from which the matchbox was made, did NOT come from the Waltz deathbed candle box of ore, why on Earth would Holmes or anyone else bother to have it made into a matchbox, or the other pieces of jewelry made from the ore? See a problem with your logic now? Why bother to pretend it came from Waltz when he or anyone else could have claimed it was from the lost Adams, which was FAR more famous in the early days than the lost Dutchman. OR the Doc Thorne mine or any of a dozen others much more well known in that time period. Then remember that Dick Holmes, Julia and Reiney had a long lasting grievance over the deathbed ore, and all of them went looking for the LDM.

Well, it was Phoenix and there was apparently great interest in a supposed "richest mine in the world" nearby. Human nature being what it is, I can easily imagine some joker obtaining a nice gold ore specimen, having it turned into a keepsake and claiming it came from that alleged mine. People like attention, and besides, such an item would also help jack up the rumors.

Stop picturing a massive flash flood, wall of water type situation as what hit Waltz's homestead too. The only photos I could find of that famous flood that struck Phoenix were more like just high water spreading all over, nothing like any flash flood.

I agree that the photo looks pretty tame, but it was taken way after the flood crest when the waters had mostly receded. The fact remains that Waltz's adobe was undermined by moving water and collapsed. Maybe the stuff inside remained intact, and maybe it didn't. We don't know. The reports of gold ore retrieval are also not certain - did it come from a box inside the house or did it come from a metal container buried on the fenceline? The witnesses' testimony that is used as evidence seems to be conflicting. I'm sure they reported in good faith, but how do we know that what they reported was not also hearsay?

By the way, that flood was more than tame. Here's another photo of the 1891 Phoenix flood, also taken after the crest but still looking like it was packing a punch.


free use from alamy.com

ALL of our sources are open to suspicion, however I still hold that the ore itself, which still exists in the famous matchbox and several other pieces of jewelry, are the best key to identify the mine itself. This kind of ore comparison has been done to successfully identify other lost mines, as with the once famous Breyfogle. And while it may be tempting to think of some alternate mine as the source like the Coarsegold, the person that Tom K and Bob C spoke to with the documents now so under question marks insisted that Waltz's ore had already been compared with every known gold source in AZ and without finding a match. As the Coarsegold, along with (supposedly) every other known gold mine in AZ would have been among the minerals being compared, I doubt this avenue will prove productive.

Yes, that topic has been discussed at length and is a dead end. The jewelry ore could have come from many sites in numerous southwestern mining camps, from claims registered or not.

Side thing here and while I would definitely not call Jim Bark a baldfaced liar, he was a human being and like all humans capable of errors, and also capable of having his own agendas. Remember Bark wanted to find the LDM himself.

Absolutely, and this applies to all searchers of lost mines, whether they were contemporaries of the times or latter day pilgrims. Folks tend to hoard what they think is the "truth" and disinform all others to protect their self interests. You can't change human nature.

 

[Cubfan64]

The discussion about the candle box is a dead end in my opinion. Who's to say that the ore wasn't retrieved or brought in some other fashion to Julia's by Waltz (or retrieved by Rhiney or someone else) and placed in a candle box under Waltz's bed. There's nothing to be gained by arguing where the candle box came from and how it could have survived a flood if it was never in Waltz's home in the first place and that's just as much a possibility as anything else.

 

[Cubfan64]

Something else that's been bugging me for a very long time that I thought I would mention... I often see comments here related to "so and so never lied to so and so," or "so and so's words are beyond reproach," etc...

That always strikes me as amusing since we're all human, all fallible and have all lied many times over our lifetimes. To believe that Brownie Holmes father never lied to him, or that Brownie never lied to Clay, etc... is simply hogwash in my opinion. The truth gets "stretched" by everyone at one time or another and everyone finds ways to justify "little white lies" or convinces themselves that there's more harm or embarrassment in telling the truth than there is in telling a "fib."

And on top of all that there are the times an "honest" person passes along something as fact that they don't even know whether it's a fact or not, but they trusted their source, who very well may have fabricated, "fibbed" or stretched the truth in their story.

It's probably not relevant to this discussion, but I see it pop up over and over on forum threads concerning the LDM and it just annoys me at times. RANT OVER... back to our regular programming...

 

[Azquester]

So with that I guess we can all assume the Dutchman lied?

Or just maybe, he never told any tale about a rich mine!

This whole kit and caboodle could have been made up for a good laugh and some side booty.

I think Grace Landis was the Dutchman's girl and we have another made for action story. Holmes probably brought her to the Dutchman for his pleasure and he deposited his little nuggets giving Grace much more pleasure in the process!

Now I knew the Dutchman was a Murderer but never knew he was a lying Gigolo!!

Of course back then if you were a man it was OK for you to save your reputation but not the women. It seems most men like Brownie could get off it they used their wits or claimed robbery!

The Dutchman, if he knew Holmes, would have surely told Jacob where he could go for pleasure. After all, he was a Miner!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cubber mi buddy , The ore on the match box may not be idetifed as a specific,, but the quartz matrix can be.due to it's included impurities.

 

[markmar]

Markmar,

I can't write that Brownie was a pathological liar but, we know of three lies that he did tell. First, denying the fact that he was involved in selling liquor illegally. He was, and after two trials, Brownie was found guilty and sentenced to serve six months (three with good behavior).

Brownie also lied about his "joy-ride" with Grace Landis. Grace was a well-known prostitute and Brownie was after one thing. Hopefully, I don't need to explain it.

Last, thanks to the work of T.E. Glover, we now know that Brownie wrote the Holmes Manuscript. According to Tom K., Brownie denied any association with the manuscript. So, we know that he lied to Tom. The question is, did he repeat this lie to his partner, Clay W.?

So, Brownie, like all people, at least had the capacity to lie.

If you are interested, a look at those people directly involved in Brownie's life might help to explain his less than perfect behavior.

Do you know about Brownie's uncle Wayne?

Hal

In the two first cases , Brownie was lied in defense , which means how was not a pathological liar .
And about the Holmes manuscript , is other thing to give some pages with your memoirs for publication and other thing to edit and to add stories along these memoirs , without the permission of the memoirs owner .
Brownie said how he didn't write that manuscript and maybe he meant as the whole manuscript like it was in the last form , but I never read somewhere how Brownie stated that what was written in Holmes manuscript about his memoirs was not truth .

 

[azdave35]

Hal

In the two first cases , Brownie was lied in defense , which means how was not a pathological liar .
And about the Holmes manuscript , is other thing to give some pages with your memoirs for publication and other thing to edit and to add stories along these memoirs , without the permission of the memoirs owner .
Brownie said how he didn't write that manuscript and maybe he meant as the whole manuscript like it was in the last form , but I never read somewhere how Brownie stated that what was written in Holmes manuscript about his memoirs was not truth .

i'm with marius...there is a big difference between lying to save your butt and lying to a friend

 

[azdave35]

Something else that's been bugging me for a very long time that I thought I would mention... I often see comments here related to "so and so never lied to so and so," or "so and so's words are beyond reproach," etc...

That always strikes me as amusing since we're all human, all fallible and have all lied many times over our lifetimes. To believe that Brownie Holmes father never lied to him, or that Brownie never lied to Clay, etc... is simply hogwash in my opinion. The truth gets "stretched" by everyone at one time or another and everyone finds ways to justify "little white lies" or convinces themselves that there's more harm or embarrassment in telling the truth than there is in telling a "fib."

And on top of all that there are the times an "honest" person passes along something as fact that they don't even know whether it's a fact or not, but they trusted their source, who very well may have fabricated, "fibbed" or stretched the truth in their story.

It's probably not relevant to this discussion, but I see it pop up over and over on forum threads concerning the LDM and it just annoys me at times. RANT OVER... back to our regular programming...

paul...clay and brownie were prospecting partners for 20 years..i don't think clay would have stuck with him that long if he thought brownie was full of s**t..maybe you have never partnered up with anyone on a treasure hunt or mining venture but i have many times over the years and it doesn't take long to see which one in the group is no good...about 25 years ago i teamed up with a well known dutch hunter..it didn't take long before i started to see things about him i didn't like..but i stayed with him and he ended up skinning me good...after that i listened to my instincts ...brownie has been dead for 35 years and clay still talks very highly of him...that should speak volumes for a mans character ....maybe brownie drank and took up with prostitutes as a youngster...but if you were to condemn him on that you would have to condemn 3/4 of the entire male population...in other words most of us drank and chased women at that age ..it doesn't mean we are no good for nothing crooks

 

[cactusjumper]

Dave, Marius and Paul,

Good friends are scarce in this world. Friendly acquaintances are as common as grains of sand on the beach. In time, you will learn who are the ones you can count on......always. Few of us are always worthy of that trust. For Clay to stick by his friend for so many years speaks volumes, because Clay is a good man.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Shucks deducer, even I have been known to bend things a bit to keep from revealing too much on Tayopa