Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[azdave35]

Injunbro,

Another aspect of the Chiricahua Apache pertaining to a treasure legend, is about Nana and the Lost Adams' Diggings(LAD).

There has been a fair amount devoted to it and most seem fixated on saying it was the old redoubtable Nana that was the Apache leader who led the probable massacre of the Adams party. But the point that has always puzzled me, is how would they have known who Nana was in the 1860s when the alleged massacre took place as he did not become well-known until the 1880s after his spectacular raid and he did not pass away - "unreconstructed" as those that met him in captivity quoted - until the late 1890s.

The LAD and the Sublett mine of the Guadalupe mountains are two mysteries that I enjoy delving into in my spare time due to their Apache connections. The reputed areas are still fairly sparsely settled and inaccessible in many ways, and there are enough lonely spots in those mountains to harbour interesting places. The last 'action' to take place in the Guadalupe mountains with the Mescalero was in the early 1880s with Texas Rangers if I'm not mistaken but the Chiricahua were still making there presence known in and around those mountains long after that date...

With regards to the LAD, there is a fair amount written about the "Pumpkin Patch" which was part of the mighty Mangas Coloradas' rancheria. Thing is, this location was very well known to the US Cavalry as they visited the old chief there on many occasions.

I would dearly love to know your views on the matter, Injunbro.


IPUK

if you want a good read on the lost adams check out the book "zig zag canyon" by ron feldman

 

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[Real of Tayopa]

Injunbro, that blue corn is very tasty. We have it planted in the sierras in Mexico. Makes wonderful tortillas.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

if you want a good read on the lost adams check out the book "zig zag canyon" by ron feldman

That book was described by Jack Purcell as being more fiction than non. Purcell's book was quite defining and I contacted him about some queries I had, but he said there was nothing further he could really add.

But the LAD is an intriguing one nonetheless.

IPUK

 

[cactusjumper]

That book was described by Jack Purcell as being more fiction than non. Purcell's book was quite defining and I contacted him about some queries I had, but he said there was nothing further he could really add.

But the LAD is an intriguing one nonetheless.

IPUK

IPUK,

Ron has always maintained his books are fiction. I believe they are historical novels, a mix of historical fact and fiction. To make your own decision, you will need to read his book and compare it to the other information you already have.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Cactusjumper,

If this chap is honest enough to admit that it's a work of fiction, albeit with some historical fact, I'm afraid I have too much swooshing around my head to try and cram any more that would further blur the lines.

I am never, ever going to have "boots on the ground" with regards to the LAD - just that the whole mysterious saga is an interesting one from my perspective.

IPUK

 

[Injunbro]

Injunbro, that blue corn is very tasty. We have it planted in the sierras in Mexico. Makes wonderful tortillas.

My wife grows it here too & is very good in tortillas or corn bread. Of course I'm too lazy to actually do any farm work unless it's from the seat of a tractor... Have you ever ate blue popcorn? Delicious!

 

[Injunbro]

IPUK, scdfia, etc. I know very little about the Lost Adams diggings except I've heard Gontch Ear (some called him John Gontch) led them to Nolgas Canyon (Apache word for 'Zig zag' & name for Aravaipa Canyon) in the Galiuro Mtn.s instead of the Guadalupes. That could be the LAD location since there are gold mines in the area. Aravaipa Canyon was where The Apache Kid hid out, yes, I know where his 'hideout' was, within a couple miles of the camp of his father-in-law Eskiminzin. Most of the crimes accredited to him including kidnapping a few dozen women were done by other Apaches (his beautiful wife would have cut off parts of his anatomy), :? he did snag a few cows & horses.

 

[azdave35]

That book was described by Jack Purcell as being more fiction than non. Purcell's book was quite defining and I contacted him about some queries I had, but he said there was nothing further he could really add.

But the LAD is an intriguing one nonetheless.

IPUK

i dont know who jack purcell is but if he is an author on the same subject i'm sure he isn't going to say anything good about his competitors ...i know the author of zig zag canyon and the book is listed as fiction for obvious reasons...maybe you should read it before passing judgement on it

 

[Interested Party in UK]

i dont know who jack purcell is but if he is an author on the same subject i'm sure he isn't going to say anything good about his competitors ...i know the author of zig zag canyon and the book is listed as fiction for obvious reasons...maybe you should read it before passing judgement on it

Jack Purcell is the author of "Lost Adams Diggings: Myth, Mystery and Madness". He book has been described as quite defining on the subject of the LAD by various people who are more knowledgeable than most others (myself included).

I am not passing "judgment" on your friend - simply saying I do not believe it'd be worth reading if its obviously stated as fiction.

Sorry if I offended your sensibilities. But how ironic that you ask me not to pass judgment on your friend but you still do exactly so on Jack Purcell...the irony is not lost on me..

IPUK

PS. Purcell did actually talk very positively of other authors including Dick French..

 

[Interested Party in UK]

IPUK, scdfia, etc. I know very little about the Lost Adams diggings except I've heard Gontch Ear (some called him John Gontch) led them to Nolgas Canyon (Apache word for 'Zig zag' & name for Aravaipa Canyon) in the Galiuro Mtn.s instead of the Guadalupes. That could be the LAD location since there are gold mines in the area. Aravaipa Canyon was where The Apache Kid hid out, yes, I know where his 'hideout' was, within a couple miles of the camp of his father-in-law Eskiminzin. Most of the crimes accredited to him including kidnapping a few dozen women were done by other Apaches (his beautiful wife would have cut off parts of his anatomy), :? he did snag a few cows & horses.

Thank you, Injunbro.

It would seem that the LAD really could be in Arizona as oppose to New Mexico as many would like to think it is.

By what you have heard, it would also substantiate that there really was a guide with the name "Gotch Ear" but obviously mispronounced by the party and the chap was "Gontch Ear". I suppose easily done in those times.

IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Hi,injunbro no, the thought of popcorn never occured to me. The best blue corn tortillas I ever ate were mixed with native grass seeds and carne seco = machaca = de venado with spices

 

[markmar]

Thank you, Injunbro.

It would seem that the LAD really could be in Arizona as oppose to New Mexico as many would like to think it is.

By what you have heard, it would also substantiate that there really was a guide with the name "Gotch Ear" but obviously mispronounced by the party and the chap was "Gontch Ear". I suppose easily done in those times.

IPUK

Why i think I have heard this version again ?

 

[azdave35]

Jack Purcell is the author of "Lost Adams Diggings: Myth, Mystery and Madness". He book has been described as quite defining on the subject of the LAD by various people who are more knowledgeable than most others (myself included).

I am not passing "judgment" on your friend - simply saying I do not believe it'd be worth reading if its obviously stated as fiction.

Sorry if I offended your sensibilities. But how ironic that you ask me not to pass judgment on your friend but you still do exactly so on Jack Purcell...the irony is not lost on me..

IPUK

PS. Purcell did actually talk very positively of other authors including Dick French..

i merely made a suggestion for a book you might like....read it or dont...no skin off my nose

 

[markmar]

Injunbro

I believe the LAD is the same place that Dr Thorne have seen the rich gold placer in the water . From there you can see the Holy Land on the next mountain to the south and the twin " piloncillos " on a ridge just little to the left .
What is your opinion ?

 

[Real of Tayopa]

But Marius,the twin plioncillos are down at Tayopa, in fact they form one way into the Tayopa complex.

 

[Injunbro]

Injunbro

I believe the LAD is the same place that Dr Thorne have seen the rich gold placer in the water . From there you can see the Holy Land on the next mountain to the south and the twin " piloncillos " on a ridge just little to the left .
What is your opinion ?

The Holy Land is in a canyon, not on a mountain. Out of respect to the traditionalists I won't reveal the location. I will say there's nothing there worth seeing unless you're a traditional Apache. Dr. Thorne could have been in the Sups, or half a dozen other places, as could the LAD including @ the bottom of Apache Lake. I don't know where either is, only a few possible stories that contradict each other. I'm afraid my opinion is worth just what it costs, nothing. Sorry.

 

[Injunbro]

Don Jose, we haven't rattled each others cages lately & I miss the good-natured banter... how come if the Apaches are too lazy to do anything except steal from wimps it took 300 years & the armies from both Mexico & USA to beat them? It took the lions share of the US Army 20 years to catch Geronimo & 19 men (who had to look out for 300 women & children). Geronimo's family brought Mexican hatred on themselves? His aged mother, wife & children that were murdered picked on the Mexicans? If the Yaquis were such good fighters how come no one outside the area ever heard of them but Apaches are feared all over? (ever hear of a Yaqui helicopter?).
Before anyone thinks I'm attacking him I have great respect for Don Jose (& use the term "Don" out of respect purposely).... but don't tell him I said that.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Injunbro,

The Americans needed Apache scouts to make any sort of headway against the band(s) still out...By themselves, the cavalry usually didn't even see shadows unless the Apache wanted them to...

Some Mexicans and Americans considered hunting Apaches to be a 'sport'. I can see why the warriors would want to defend themselves and do some damage when given the opportunity. Cochise, Mangas Coloradas and the main chiefs didn't have any issues with the Americans and Geronimo even talked fondly of meeting an American surveying team in the 1840s, but they made war after the Bascom incident and the murder of Mangas. Cochise was friends and an acquaintance of many Americans before the incident where he went to war after his family members were hanged for something they didn't even do.

The Yaqui (some) fled to parts of Arizona when they were fighting the Mexicans and tried to raid an armoury. They soon surrendered when they got into a fight with Americans.

The Southwest of the States and the border will always be famous because of the Apache.

IPUK

 

[Injunbro]

Injunbro,

The Americans needed Apache scouts to make any sort of headway against the band(s) still out...By themselves, the cavalry usually didn't even see shadows unless the Apache wanted them to...

Some Mexicans and Americans considered hunting Apaches to be a 'sport'. I can see why the warriors would want to defend themselves and do some damage when given the opportunity. Cochise, Mangas Coloradas and the main chiefs didn't have any issues with the Americans and Geronimo even talked fondly of meeting an American surveying team in the 1840s, but they made war after the Bascom incident and the murder of Mangas. Cochise was friends and an acquaintance of many Americans before the incident where he went to war after his family members were hanged for something they didn't even do.

The Yaqui (some) fled to parts of Arizona when they were fighting the Mexicans and tried to raid an armoury. They soon surrendered when they got into a fight with Americans.

The Southwest of the States and the border will always be famous because of the Apache.

IPUK

Of course. My wife, son & I've been to the location of Bascoms fiasco (he missed the right tribe by over 100 miles). Great-Grandpa was one of those scouts, someday when I'm bored & lonely I'll write up some more history passed down by family. Maybe I'll tell about some of the battlefields & show some relics found there. It's just fun getting Joe (Don Jose, Real of Tayopa) fired up enough to tell some of the very interesting stories he's known for.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Injunbro,

Would be great to see those relics and hear some more stories. They, to me at least, are still as fascinating as when they took place. The deserts and mountains of the Southwest are amazing, but what makes them even more so, is the Apache who made it their home and were a massive part of its history.

I remember being on horseback in the Dragoons and at the current Fort Bowie. You can almost feel being in another century and getting a feel of the atmosphere of a time gone by.

Was Juh as a fearsome Chief as was popularly thought of, Injunbro?

IPUK