Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[azdave35]

very interested...

 

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[Real of Tayopa]

Si senor. mind if post a few on the Mexican version on the Apaches?

 

[Injunbro]

Si senor. mind if post a few on the Mexican version on the Apaches?

I'd be very happy to hear the Mexican version! Being a halfbreed I see both Red & White sides.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

This is kind of off topic for the Sup's but Geronimo did occasionally go there & had weapon & food caches there. Great Grandpa (GG) known as Will Rice was a scout for about 6 months under General Crook. Most of the time was spent around Fort Whipple, Prescott & Camp Lincoln, Camp Verde (AZ), he scouted on the Battle @ Turret Peak but they did make a campaign down in SE Arizona. They stopped briefly @ Fort Bowie & went down to the Mexican border accomplishing very little except showing their faces to the settlers & giving them the delusion they were protected, then returned to Ft. Whipple. Later after his scouting contract was completed he returned to his family & along w/ his wife, children & a few other relatives were camped below Fort Apache when Geronimo & a few other 'Broncos' dropped in. Geronimo was 100% outlaw & took whatever he could from whoever including women & children, horses, guns, etc... him dropping into camp was not a friendly visit. He recognized GG as a scout & snarled a few words like 'traitor', 'white boys dog' & suddenly stopped when he heard a couple guns cock in the rocks nearby. Realizing GG had posted guards that had him flanked he ended the chat immediately & left. They never met again. GG despised Geronimo because unlike most Apaches he lied (most will simply refuse to discuss a subject instead) & kept the wars stirred up affecting other peaceful Apaches. In Geronimo's defense he was a peaceful Hataali (healer) until his wife, 3 children & mother were murdered in Mexico. His wife was his childhood sweetheart & he never got over it. Later he'd remarry & had 9 wives total, 7 were murdered by Whites or Mexicans, 1 divorced him, 1 outlived him. He had 3 children who survived but disowned a daughter who married a White man & lived somewhere in Mexico. Geronimo had a sweet tooth & often bought sugar in the mercantile in Wilcox, AZ. The mercantile recently closed & is for sale. GG accompanied other campaigns as a scout organized by King Woolsey but these were a civilian group, not military. I'll try to post other stories passed on by family in the correct forum if anyone is interested.

Thank you Injunbro.

I was not aware that leading warrior and medicine-man Geronimo, ever ranged that far west into the Supes as it was far from his normal stomping ground. Interesting indeed. Many felt he was a hero in that no matter how futile or doomed the struggle, he fought on against insurmountable odds. Others felt him to be a troublemaker and outlaw (as you say) and the main cause of the Apache Wars of the 1880s. But this is not accounting for the fact that Juh, Nana, the great Victorio, Naichez, Magnus, Chihuahua and others, were just as eager to live free and unrestrained as Geronimo.

The really amazing and delightful aspect of this lively period of history for the Chiricahua and the American Southwest, is that many main players lived on well into the 20th Century and invaluable information and details were taken firsthand albeit some years after the events. What most of those interested in those events, myself included, know that the 'struggle' carried on well into the aforementioned century and it is a remarkable story of hiding, raiding, weariness, hopelessness and even satisfaction, by those that chose this way of life over the reservation and civilisation according to others.

I have visited the hauntingly beautiful Chiricahua homelands the once, many years ago. It was a truly amazing experience for someone who had only read about the time and place I was then visiting.

I sincerely hope you can share more stories and anecdotes with us.


IPUK

 

[Injunbro]

But this is not accounting for the fact that Juh, Nana, the great Victorio, Naichez, Magnus, Chihuahua and others, were just as eager to live free and unrestrained as Geronimo.IPUK

W/ the exception of Geronimo (who was justified in hate if anyone is) & Uhlzanna (his brother) most Apaches were happy to be left alone. If the Chiricahua Reservation set up by General Howard & Cochise had remained most of the wars would never have happened but like all treaties were ignored by incoming Whites. Lack of food & hungry children is a great motivator, so is being lied to constantly. One of the real troublemakers was Zeb Streeter who was married to Geronimo's daughter & led raiding parties of renegade Apaches on US & Mexican ranches or sold Pima scalps in Mexico as Apache for the reward then turned around & scouted for US troops in "punitive missions"... Yep, the Chiricahua homeland is beautiful. We live on what was once reservation & are less than 1/4 mile from the Dragoon Mountains. Like Cochise I'll leave here only when I take that last journey skywards.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Many thanks for the above post.

I was under the impression that Ulzana/Jolsannie was the brother of Chihuahua rather than Geronimo, as all the records seem to suggest this and there is the recorded testimony of Chihuahua's son in the 1950s.

Zeb Streeter was the some time interpreter of the Apaches and I've come across this chap and his machinations.

In reality if the Chiricahua Reservation had continued after the great Cochise's passing, it would have been a real bone of contention between the US and the Mexican authorities, as the Apache would continue to raid into old Mexico at will and they would have the refuge of the Reserve. This was happening in Cochise's time and he tacitly encouraged it.

The Dragoons were a special place and I was privileged to have been there and to think the greatest of all Apaches, has it as his final resting place...

Whilst in captivity, good old Geronimo was questioned on where he had come across the best gold prospecting spots, he replied "The Guadelupes". Naiche knew all his father's, Cochise's trails, caches, camps etc., and he replied "The Sierra Madres". A Chiricahua who was with the final band in the 1880s, actually went back into the Sierras with a Norwegian ethnographer to try and make contact with the still 'free' Apache. He was also looking for a cave where they'd stored gold bars in a raid in years gone by.

Some really interesting stuff where the Chiricahua are involved.


IPUK

 

[Azquester]

Many thanks for the above post.

I was under the impression that Ulzana/Jolsannie was the brother of Chihuahua rather than Geronimo, as all the records seem to suggest this and there is the recorded testimony of Chihuahua's son in the 1950s.

Zeb Streeter was the some time interpreter of the Apaches and I've come across this chap and his machinations.

In reality if the Chiricahua Reservation had continued after the great Cochise's passing, it would have been a real bone of contention between the US and the Mexican authorities, as the Apache would continue to raid into old Mexico at will and they would have the refuge of the Reserve. This was happening in Cochise's time and he tacitly encouraged it.

The Dragoons were a special place and I was privileged to have been there and to think the greatest of all Apaches, has it as his final resting place...

Whilst in captivity, good old Geronimo was questioned on where he had come across the best gold prospecting spots, he replied "The Guadelupes". Naiche knew all his father's, Cochise's trails, caches, camps etc., and he replied "The Sierra Madres". A Chiricahua who was with the final band in the 1880s, actually went back into the Sierras with a Norwegian ethnographer to try and make contact with the still 'free' Apache. He was also looking for a cave where they'd stored gold bars in a raid in years gone by.

Some really interesting stuff where the Chiricahua are involved.


IPUK

Hello interested party. The Dragoons are a magnificent mountain range and I've hiked them a few times. Counsel Rock is in there where the great Cochise planned his strategy against his oppressors.

In the Chiricahua's I've also had the pleasure of camping in and hiking. Looking for Geronimo's canyon of the future where he received his "Visions" that told him he would not be killed by white men's bullets.

The Chiricahua's are just south of the Dos Cabezas range and near Fort Bowie where I once found the grave site of one of Geronimo's sons named Little Robe. Little Robe was killed by Mexican Raiders and Geronimo hated the Mexicans for murdering his family. He went on a killing spree and slaughtered many Mexican's for revenge.

Both Chief's would meet at Counsel Rock coordinating attacks and raids. The Chiricahua's now are a tourist attraction and most parts are off limits for motorized vehicles. The mountains still sport Bear and Lion and can be a dangerous place to go without a weapon. Not to mention Gun Running Narco's and illegal border crossers.

Arizona was and still is a harsh place to live. Even for the Apache.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

On the Apache problem, there was no excuse for raiding and killing except for loot and too damn lazy to raise food themselves.

Incientally our surveyor was a pure blood Apache, his mother was involved in the later Apache wars

The Apache raided far into Mexico, which never was part of Apache lend, They raided from the 1400's on, eventually becoing such a nuscience that the Mexican gov't started putting a bounty on Apache scalps. Geronimo's raids caused his own family's wipe out

The Apache quickly learned of the attrition factor in braves, that it took 17 18 years to replace a brave, and so developed the ambush technique, they would fire a volley of arrows or bullets and depending upon the effect, would determine if they just faded away or charged the wounded and bewildered men. They were specially adapt in carrying out their toruure, they were encouraged to believe that the longer they carried it out, the more spiritual energy would be trasferred.

And on.

Appol mi Injun bro. me part Mohican, twas a long cold winter,sidesas I told my injun bro 'she was darn cute'.


The apache never raided into the Yaqui territroy, they quickly learned who was the superior fighter

No, the poor persecuted Apache who was fighting for survival myth, is gone, in fact the Majority of the apache were peaceful people who paid the price of a few lazy ones that were simply put, thieves, who killed for whatever they wanted, no different than from some of todays drug gangs.

 

[azdave35]

"Majority of the apache were peaceful people who paid the price of a few lazy ones that were simply put, thieves, who killed for whatever they wanted, no different than from some of todays drug gangs."

i think this is true in every race or civilization...most are decent people and it only takes a small percentage of uncivilized idiots to ruin it for the good ones

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hello interested party. The Dragoons are a magnificent mountain range and I've hiked them a few times. Counsel Rock is in there where the great Cochise planned his strategy against his oppressors.

In the Chiricahua's I've also had the pleasure of camping in and hiking. Looking for Geronimo's canyon of the future where he received his "Visions" that told him he would not be killed by white men's bullets.

The Chiricahua's are just south of the Dos Cabezas range and near Fort Bowie where I once found the grave site of one of Geronimo's sons named Little Robe. Little Robe was killed by Mexican Raiders and Geronimo hated the Mexicans for murdering his family. He went on a killing spree and slaughtered many Mexican's for revenge.

Both Chief's would meet at Counsel Rock coordinating attacks and raids. The Chiricahua's now are a tourist attraction and most parts are off limits for motorized vehicles. The mountains still sport Bear and Lion and can be a dangerous place to go without a weapon. Not to mention Gun Running Narco's and illegal border crossers.

Arizona was and still is a harsh place to live. Even for the Apache.

Hello Bill,

Yes, I have also visited Fort Bowie which houses the small cemetery with the reputed grave of one of Geronimo's son's.
His hatred of Mexicans dated back to the Janos massacre when his wife, children and mother were murdered under the flag of truce and the mighty Mangas Coloradas let Geronimo lead the revenge raid as he'd lost so much, and is where he 'earned' his Spanish moniker due to fighting the Mexicans so fiercely.

Most tribes, when asked, were nearly always detrimental of another's fighting abilities. The facts speak for themselves; the US Cavalry, civilians, Mexicans, bounty hunters etc., would always have an extra level of respect and acknowledgement when facing Chiricahua Apaches, and they, in turn, nearly obliterated themselves by trying to remain as they were before the coming of the westward American expansion.

In a way, even though there is much issues associated with it, I am kind of glad that Arizona retains a certain level of underdevelopment and sparse settlement. This is from a purely selfish viewpoint in that, someday, when my family are all grown-up and I have completed all I wish to in a professional capacity, I will buy some property out there and spend part of the year in that wonderful location that has witnessed so many interesting times and events.


IPUK

 

[cactusjumper]

On the Apache problem, there was no excuse for raiding and killing except for loot and too damn lazy to raise food themselves.

Incientally our surveyor was a pure blood Apache, his mother was involved in the later Apache wars

The Apache raided far into Mexico, which never was part of Apache lend, They raided from the 1400's on, eventually becoing such a nuscience that the Mexican gov't started putting a bounty on Apache scalps. Geronimo's raids caused his own family's wipe out

The Apache quickly learned of the attrition factor in braves, that it took 17 18 years to replace a brave, and so developed the ambush technique, they would fire a volley of arrows or bullets and depending upon the effect, would determine if they just faded away or charged the wounded and bewildered men. They were specially adapt in carrying out their toruure, they were encouraged to believe that the longer they carried it out, the more spiritual energy would be trasferred.

And on.

Appol mi Injun bro. me part Mohican, twas a long cold winter,sidesas I told my injun bro 'she was darn cute'.


The apache never raided into the Yaqui territroy, they quickly learned who was the superior fighter

No, the poor persecuted Apache who was fighting for survival myth, is gone, in fact the Majority of the apache were peaceful people who paid the price of a few lazy ones that were simply put, thieves, who killed for whatever they wanted, no different than from some of todays drug gangs.

Don Jose,

It's difficult for those living today to judge the Apache or any other tribe from past era's. In those days, tribes established their "land" by being stronger than the people living there when they came. When we came along, we pushed them all out. That's how countries were born. I think the only tribe we never defeated, was the Seminole.

Not sure I would ever call the majority of the early Apache......"peaceful people". They existed by, for the most part, raiding other tribes who earned their living with hard work. Towards the end, most were peaceful.

Take care,

Joe

 

[civil_war22]

Don Jose,

It's difficult for those living today to judge the Apache or any other tribe from past era's. In those days, tribes established their "land" by being stronger than the people living there when they came. When we came along, we pushed them all out. That's how countries were born. I think the only tribe we never defeated, was the Seminole.

Not sure I would ever call the majority of the early Apache......"peaceful people". They existed by, for the most part, raiding other tribes who earned their living with hard work. Towards the end, most were peaceful.

Take care,

Joe

Most lived according to their surroundings. They had to be strong in order to survive. Basic survival instincts and never backing down gave the early apache the reputation of major problem children. Later on in life when most tribes became civilized they too calmed down but I feel that most Native American tribes were done so wrong by the government as well. That whole argument is for a whole different thread but I can see where some of their and most other tribes anger came from

 

[cactusjumper]

Many thanks for the above post.

I was under the impression that Ulzana/Jolsannie was the brother of Chihuahua rather than Geronimo, as all the records seem to suggest this and there is the recorded testimony of Chihuahua's son in the 1950s.

Zeb Streeter was the some time interpreter of the Apaches and I've come across this chap and his machinations.

In reality if the Chiricahua Reservation had continued after the great Cochise's passing, it would have been a real bone of contention between the US and the Mexican authorities, as the Apache would continue to raid into old Mexico at will and they would have the refuge of the Reserve. This was happening in Cochise's time and he tacitly encouraged it.

The Dragoons were a special place and I was privileged to have been there and to think the greatest of all Apaches, has it as his final resting place...

Whilst in captivity, good old Geronimo was questioned on where he had come across the best gold prospecting spots, he replied "The Guadelupes". Naiche knew all his father's, Cochise's trails, caches, camps etc., and he replied "The Sierra Madres". A Chiricahua who was with the final band in the 1880s, actually went back into the Sierras with a Norwegian ethnographer to try and make contact with the still 'free' Apache. He was also looking for a cave where they'd stored gold bars in a raid in years gone by.

Some really interesting stuff where the Chiricahua are involved.


IPUK

IPUK,

For a really good read on Zebina Nathaniel Streeter, I would highly recommend folks read, "WHITE APACHE" by Lynn Bailey.

WHITE APACHE; The Life and Tims of Zebina Nathaniel Streeter. A number of copies can be found here:

Streeter White Apache - AbeBooks

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Thank you, cactusjumper.

I have only come across different references in various books, about this chap Streeter. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe he once claimed to have seen Tayopa from afar when on a raid in old Mexico with Apaches.

It would seem that the prevailing conditions in the Southwest and Mexican border, attracted all manner of people with different stories. As you correctly state, it was an amazingly unforgiving, and for the vast majority on both 'sides', unjust time where justice, honesty and conscience did not always go a long way.


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

I puk, it wasn't all one way either, the strong dominated the weak. The Apache raiding parties in Mexico were mostly smaller units, 20 or so, but occasionally hundreds as they had to live off of the country where they had no success in stealing enough provisions. I quickly learned the facts of living off of a country, when I was looking for Mayan ruins, my partner and I used 22 pistols to secure animal life, and our machetes for plant life to sustain us. we found that in Yucatan, Mexico that the local life, plant and animal - would only sustain us for a few weeks then we had to move on. Yes, I am weil aware of the limitations of a hunter/gather life. We did this for over 6 mo in the 50's and actually did find a well run down small pyramid which was duly reported to the Mexican authorities.

We found rhat we had to spend so much time simply obtaining enough food, that it seriously cut into our exploring. I can easily imagine those Apache raiders problems.

The one on the main hiway today in my partner , also the one hamming it up in the river, I am the one collecting Oysters in the lagoon.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Don,

Whilst you and your homey were in the Yucatan, would you believe me if I said there was a good possibility that some Apache were still roaming the Sierra Madre mountains even in the 1950s?


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

IPUK, that is true. I neve rknowingly met a truly bronco Apache, but did encounter many an x revolutionary who refused to go home to his farm peacefully

Sorta like that popilar WWI sog " how are you gonna keep them on the farm after they have seen gay Pare".

 

[Azquester]

I believe I saw one of Kino's maps that placed the tribes of the Superstition's as the "Moquies" just northwest above the San Carlos Apache of the Gila and Pedro rivers respectively. Could that have been an off shoot of the Apache?

 

[Injunbro]

IPUK: Uhlzana Geronimo's brother & Josannie Chihuahua's brother aren't the same person although their names sound similar when spoken. Cochise made peace w/ the Americans, he never agreed to peace w/ Mexico & flatly stated he never would. Gen. Howard wanted his peace mission to succeed so bad he agreed anyway. While the Apaches continued to raid in Mexico no smuggling by Whites or Mexicans in either direction went on in that area during the last 2 years of Cochise life (smuggling was rampant in other areas then & now. One of Cochise favorite camps is now the Triangle T Guest Ranch.
Bill Riley: The location of Geronimo's canyon where he received his "Visions" that told him he would not be killed by white men's bullets is directly south of the "new" Fort Bowie. He was actually on a hill that can be seen from the current fort/museum site. The original site or "old" fort was north, close to the spring. Council Rock, where the peace treaty w/ Gen. Howard was agreed upon was actually in the basin a few feet south of the rock Cochise liked to sit on looking over the (now called) San Pedro Valley. The actual treaty was signed @ Dragoon Springs @ the north end of the Dragoon Mountains a few days later. The move was partly because Cochise never wanted anyone to know exactly where he was & partly because the army wagon bringing blankets & flour could get no closer.
All: I know a few folks living here today who are descended from Bronco Apaches. Some were still wandering around nomadically on both sides of the border in the 1970's. All seem to have settled down & live normal lives today... whatever "normal" is. Captain Joseph Sladen, who accompanied Gen. Howard, wrote an excellent book on the subject: Making Peace With Cochise. We could discuss who was the bad & good guys forever, White, Red or Mix (Mexicans being a cross between Spanish & Native) but as has already been said: there are good & bad in all races. All get blamed for the evils of the bad. Before the Whites came Apaches raised a little corn, etc. They were never farmers like the Tohono O'odham but did a little to help w/ the hunting. Gun-running was rampant then & still is (if I get around to it I'll write up Great-Grandpa's gun smuggling escapades). Drug smugglers are the real threat today.

 

[Injunbro]

I believe I saw one of Kino's maps that placed the tribes of the Superstition's as the "Moquies" just northwest above the San Carlos Apache of the Gila and Pedro rivers respectively. Could that have been an off shoot of the Apache?

View attachment 1366688

No, the "Moquies" are actually the Hopis. They traded w/ the Apaches on occasion & both often crossed into each others territories for that reason. Traditionally correct names for people & even entire tribes were seldom used as they felt it gave you a power over them. Apache isn't the correct name either, they refer to themselves as Inde.