TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

[gollum]

Funny you should ask!

Last night as I went to leave the grocery store, I couldn't shift out of park. I knew that if the brake switch fails the tranny won't shift out of Park. It was ten oclock at night, and I had no spare. As I sat with the engine running pondering my situation, I saw a bright light coming from under the dash. I leaned over to see the brake switch shorting out and the plastic housing catch fire. After a bunch of slapping and ouching, I got the little fire out. I unplugged the brake switch and jury rigged a jumper wire in the plug to allow gear shifting, I drove home and ordered a new switch.

WHAT A PAIN IN THE TUCCUS!

Mike

 

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[Springfield]

Funny you should ask!

Last night as I went to leave the grocery store, I couldn't shift out of park. I knew that if the brake switch fails the tranny won't shift out of Park. It was ten oclock at night, and I had no spare. As I sat with the engine running pondering my situation, I saw a bright light coming from under the dash. I leaned over to see the brake switch shorting out and the plastic housing catch fire. After a bunch of slapping and ouching, I got the little fire out. I unplugged the brake switch and jury rigged a jumper wire in the plug to allow gear shifting, I drove home and ordered a new switch.

WHAT A PAIN IN THE TUCCUS!

Mike

Get a Ford.

 

[diggemall]

Get a Ford.

My F-350 is starting to do the same thing............... Most noticeable when tapping the brake to drop cruise control or when shifting from park into gear...........

Time to order a part

Diggem'

 

[gollum]

I've had Fords, Chevies, and VW Baja Bugs. My Range Rover is BY FAR the best off road truck I have ever owned. They are labor intensive and quirky, but because I sold Land Rovers, I know how to do about anything to it that needs to be done. There's a reason when you go to Africa, the Middle East, Central and South America, that the greatest majority of 4x4s you see are Land/Range Rovers. They go absolutely ANYWHERE!

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Even bettern my lovely Isuzu trooper? Course I changed the suspension using heavy duty Rancho adjustable shocks all around, and airlifts on the back, made a humane vehicle out of it. Nice firm ride with flat cornering and improved traction since the Michalien tires don't break free so easly.

Before you were never sure.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

I've had Fords, Chevies, and VW Baja Bugs. My Range Rover is BY FAR the best off road truck I have ever owned. They are labor intensive and quirky, but because I sold Land Rovers, I know how to do about anything to it that needs to be done. There's a reason when you go to Africa, the Middle East, Central and South America, that the greatest majority of 4x4s you see are Land/Range Rovers. They go absolutely ANYWHERE!

Mike

Actually, I think you'll find Toyotas at the top of the heap nowadays worldwide - it's that Japanese 2-year tax thingy that puts a whole lotta lightly used Tacomas and Tundras in the field at really good prices. That 'labor intensive' tag reminds me of one of my college roommates who just loved Triumph motorcycles.

 

[Springfield]

Even bettern my lovely Isuzu trooper? Course I changed the suspension using heavy duty Rancho adjustable shocks all around, and airlifts on the back, made a humane vehicle out of it. Nice firm ride with flat cornering and improved traction since the Michalien tires don't break free so easly.

Before you were never sure.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don't they tip over easily?

 

[gollum]

I've had Fords, Chevies, and VW Baja Bugs. My Range Rover is BY FAR the best off road truck I have ever owned. They are labor intensive and quirky, but because I sold Land Rovers, I know how to do about anything to it that needs to be done. There's a reason when you go to Africa, the Middle East, Central and South America, that the greatest majority of 4x4s you see are Land/Range Rovers. They go absolutely ANYWHERE!

Mike

Actually, I think you'll find Toyotas at the top of the heap nowadays worldwide - it's that Japanese 2-year tax thingy that puts a whole lotta lightly used Tacomas and Tundras in the field at really good prices. That 'labor intensive' tag reminds me of one of my college roommates who just loved Triumph motorcycles.

Not even close! Land Rovers have been the dominant off road vehicle worldwide since the early 1950s. Toyota Land Cruisers come in a very distant second. The biggest sucky thing is that finding diesels for the US Market is really tough.

Triumph Motorcycles maintenance pales in comparison to the older Rovers with Lucas Electronics. I used to show customers that Ford buying Rover/Jaguar/Aston Martin was the best thing that ever happened to them by reading them a communicae from Adolph Hitler to Hermann Goering instructing the Luftwaffe not to bomb the Lucas Factory because they were Germany's best ally in the war. HAHAHAHA

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Joe,

I just reread my post, and I have to apologize. The Incan Treasure Story has absolutely nothing to do with the Jesuits. Must have been in the middle of a psychotic episode when I typed that.

Mike

It is that danged Galactic Normal 37 hour day schedule amigo, it will do that to you every time!

As for what vehicle beats all for off-road travel - get a horse. I guarantee that a horse can get where NO motor vehicle of any kind can go. They can go just about anywhere you can get on foot, including crossing deep waters, jumping ditches, downed logs, following narrow little foot paths that NO motor vehicle can, and are 100% legal for all Wilderness Areas. Not to mention they run on 100% bio-fuels, and very rarely ever break down and leave you afoot miles from a road. Mules and burros are good too, but not for crossing deep water. Horses also reproduce themselves, no vehicle I know of will do that, much less come when you call it, or nuzzle you for a treat or a scratch behind the ear. Much safer than any quad too - if you fall with your horse, the horse will do his best to get up OFF you, that quad will lay right on top of you and let you die. Sorry to our quad afficianadoes, but sometimes the 'old' way still is the best all around. Just a personal opinion of course.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

g'morning springfield, you posted --> Don't they tip over easily?
*************
nope, they are just fine, if you don't use that overly soft, Estate setup favored in the US which blew the consumers report.. This is why I changed the suspension by using heavy duty, adjustable shocks all around and the air suspension in the rear. A very firm, level ride, and corners beautifully, like a sport car. You feel that it is undercontrol always, not like a soft suspension. My wife loves it.. . Leaves the US suv's behind in the brush and is almost perfect on the highway also. almost like driving my old Triumph. Repairs are minimal but expensive, top quality.

My beautiful Land Rover, which Gollum is presently taking care of for me - I hope - is also an excellent vehicle.

ok ok gully so I am just jealous that is yours, not mine.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. for the simply best all around, rough and ready, off road use, get a "go-Moblie".

 

[rangler]

trackers,
he jesuits of course are guilty of not only dealing in slaves and working slaves to death in their gold mines..mines that were held in the hands of "secular" jesuits called over from the old world by jesuits priests for the express purpose of holding the gold and silver mines in their names acting as a front for the brother jesuits...calling on friends and relatives from the old world and promising homesteads and business positions..[the cover story was the beginning of the LAND GRANT S YSTEM] it is all there if you want to dig into the research ..start with george thompsons book, treasures along the old spanish trail, where he accounts for millions of Amerindians worked to death in the horrible conditions that pit mining was in, where fires were started deep underground filling the tunnel with noxious gases and heat..then in the choking s smoke the enslaved Indians threw water against the hot ore body and the smoke and steam were killing the slaves a little each day...the jesuits are guilty of greed, subterfuge, enslavement, torture and murder,intrigue, plotting,selling arms to both sides when ever possible..and a lot more
the jesuits...'the foot soldiers of the pope'- the king of Spain didn't care because he was getting his 20% for a while.-then the expulsion...


oh yea the theme of the thread

the lost padre mine of so ca..which I found with the old spanish monuments in place but is currently owned and being mined for a different precious metal at this time..a thermal vent I think, the tax caches are there but empty so far there is a story of a priest who came yearly with his small donkey train, and loaded out one of the quints after about 7 yearly trips..they were attacked by Indians on one side of the sierras.and one mule got away..with its burden..bleached bones and gold ore laying in the dirt somewhere....hmmm the makin's of a treasure story if I ever heard one...ah such are the Jessies~!
lost oro dreams
rangler

ps the mission in baja is the legendary Lost " Bahia Los Angeles"
" I do believe..
some really old jesuit maps of this part of baja.

http://www.vivabaja.com/1757/

My chevy S10 zr2 v6 and 31" terrains is of course pretty near perfect for those old gold country dirt roads and off road railsd economical too

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

how did it jump from triumph to Jesuits..?

I miss my old Norton atlas...bad knee.
lucas, the prince of darkness...made me a lot of money repairing switch and wire harness issues.

 

[rangler]

he jesuits of course are guilty of not only dealing in slaves and working slaves to death in their gold mines..mines that were held in the hands of "secular" jesuits called over from the old world by jesuits priests for the express purpose of holding the gold and silver mines in their names acting as a front for the brother jesuits...calling on friends and relatives from the old world and promising homesteads and business positions..it is all there if you want to dig into the research ..start with george thompsons book, treasures along the old spanish trail, where he accounts for millions of Amerindians worked to death in the horrible conditions that pit mining was in, where fires were started deep underground filling the tunnel with noxious gases and heat..then in the choking s smoke the enslaved Indians threw water against the hot ore body and the smoke and steam were killing the slaves a little each day...the jesuits are guilty of greed, subterfuge, enslavement, torture and murder,intrigue, plotting,selling arms to both sides when ever possible..and a lot more
the jesuits...'the foot soldiers of the pope'- the king of Spain didn't care because he was getting his 20% for a while.-then the expulsion...

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

some rather confused history.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Wana pick up the theme PIPI mi compadre?

First coffee.? Oro de Tayopa has a fres brewed pot of sock coffee ready.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

i hardly know where to begin...
the black legend is alive an well on T-net...
yes, the Spanish were, for the first fifty years, beasts towards natives...prior to the good padres convincing r
Rome that the natives had souls...{ God, Glory, Gold...or taxes from new converts}
modern Jesuit sites seem to forget their occupation of the southwest...The Jesuits
the good father kino was born about the time the first Jesuit set foot in the Americas, 1645...interesting to note it was in northern America...under the French occupation...
many natives died working for the Spanish...sometimes forced labor, some times yearly taxed(required) labor...most from disease imported from Europe...
at contact, there were 100 million natives in north America...but the time the English arrived...perhaps 10- 15 million. by disease, war, labor...
180 Spaniards did not conquer America, they convinced natives that joining in to fight their traditional enemies, with Spanish support...was the way to go...it worked...
cortex had 50,000 native warriors to help in the destruction of Teotihuacan...
oh god...I ramble...
the Jesuit did not loose any mines...if they had mines...
the mythology of lost mines arrived due to a political argument...people believing the Jesuit became too rich an powerful...{through hard work} had them expelled... during the negotiations between Jesuit/Franciscan/Spanish authorities and locals, to who owned what...the villages claimed church property and artifacts as theirs...the church claimed the churches, villages, and humans as theirs...it became a great confusion...true, some villages, especially in the north{el norte} hid property they rightfully believed their own...was it not their labor? were the resources not owned by the people?
ok..more on installment...

 

[Oroblanco]

Facts

When Portuguese governor Thome de Sousa arrived in Bahia on this day, March 29, 1549, he was accompanied by the Jesuit Manoel da Nobrega, a member of a noble family.

The first Jesuits in New France arrived in 1611.

the first 15 Jesuits in Mexico landed at Veracruz in 1572.

The Jesuits openly owned a number of silver and gold mines - see report, Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico 1767

The Jesuits owned a number of slaves, some of whom were used to work in the mines. In fact they brought the first slaves into Sonora.

The great expulsion of the Jesuits in 1767 failed to uncover most of their wealth, and this is frequently pointed to as "proof" that they had none, ignoring the fact that this expulsion was not executed like some "sting" operation, in fact at such remote outposts as Baja and Pimeria Alta, the govt simply sent word for the padres to come in, and they did so. Word had gotten well ahead of the first arrests. Also, the Jesuits in Spanish America had plenty of warning, with the Portuguese expelling them from Brazil in 1758, the French expelling them from Canada and Louisiana in 1764, so they certainly had plenty of time to conceal mines and accumulated treasures.

Some gold was in fact found hidden in one of the Baja Jesuit missions by the Spanish authorities, not a massive amount but sizable enough, and considering the Jesuit claim to have NONE, this is significant.

The Jesuits have made a determined campaign to erase and deny this part of their history, and have many defenders even within the world of treasure hunters, whom accept the findings of such Jesuit "researchers" as father Polzer, the leading Jesuit apologist of the American southwest. Even Polzer admits that two Jesuits were caught mining, and passes it off as nothing.. If we are to believe Polzer and the Jesuit apologists, then there should not be any incidences of it, and this is not the case.

The Jesuits have a pattern of subversive activities, attempting to overthrow governments and even establish their own quasi-religious states, as happened in Paraguay; when expelled from Japan for their efforts to overthrow the Emperor there, a number of Jesuits managed to sneak back into that country. Even in Japan, the Jesuits moved to gain control of the silver and gold mines.

The Jesuit mission system, like that of the other missionary Orders, was to "reduce" the native inhabitants to subjection and obedience, and the inhabitants of these mission towns and villages were NOT even free to leave their own town, without permission of the padres. They were forced to work half of the week for the missionaries as well. If they were not slaves in that they were not bought and sold, they were far from free.

The Franciscans are perhaps even more involved in mining activities in the southwest than the Jesuits were, and they get very little attention from our treasure hunters. I have never understood this, as the Franciscans were also expelled, and had even more time to conceal their mines and accumulated wealth. The massive silver altar and devices at the famous mission fo San Xavier del Bac, was likely the work of the Franciscans, not the Jesuits, and none of this silver is to be seen today. No one has reported finding it either.

I don't see a need to re-litigate this whole matter, but can back up every statement made in this post. Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

wonderful post oro...thank you...
I did say I was wandering about...
yes..the Jesuit were here early...but, not the first padres to attend to the business of conquest.
the Jesuit did have some mines..but...here is the point I was making...the Jesuit, unlike other Spanish occupation, were allowed to just wander into the 'wilderness' seeking new souls an properties...unlike the previous Spanish occupation, which required land grants, permissions from royality...
which leads to how confused the Jesuit occupation became...yes father kino laid out some nice missions...had loyal followers, who revolted an burned many of his works.
no one knew in Seville, just what the Jesuit occupation owned...not in spain, not in the new world...especially not in el norte.
in this original position of Jesuits not recording in detail how many sheep and mines, buildings and workers...gossip and mythology became the "history" of church activities.
the black legend( while based in fact) was English propaganda to support the northern Europeans piracy, war and seizure of Spanish held lands...

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola mi amigo Pip, <extra coffee alert!>

This post got to be very long, so I must beg your indulgence, thank you in advance.

Exellent points amigo Pip, especially about the way the other European powers viewed the Spanish (and Portuguese) methods of conquest, in particular the English, French and Dutch. I mention the Dutch in particular as they revolted from Spanish rule and became one of the most powerful naval powers in the world in a short time, contesting with England for primacy and even with Spain and Portugal for possession of huge areas of the New World such as Brazil. Some of the published works from the time period describe the Spanish treatment of the natives, and their African slaves as well, in horrific terms, highlighting such practices as the use of dogs to hunt down and attack natives and slaves who ran away or rebelled, which was seen as something on a par with the way we view chemical and biological warfare today.

When I started this thread, it was with an eye to bring to light some of the legends of lost Jesuit mines and treasures, and this has been only partially successful. There are many little-known examples which have not been mentioned. It is perhaps remarkable that in so many different lands where the Jesuits were active (and expelled) we find legends of their having hidden mines and stashes of riches. At least one massive treasure was unearthed in Brazil in the late 1800s. And as usual, the document found with it was couched in ambiguous terms, so that a lawyer might make an argument that while it was found in a Jesuit site with marks of Jesuit ownership, it was really not theirs after all. Even in such lands where precious metals mines have been long thought to be non-existant, and thus "proving" the Jesuit legend to be mythical, in recent years discoveries of surprisingly rich veins of gold are showing that there was something to the story after all - as in Paraguay for example.

However this game of denial and fuzzy logic has its limits, except those whom are so blind that they will not see. When the origins of these tales of lost Jesuit treasures are traced back, in most cases it was Amerindians telling Anglos of them, the Amerindians being the descendants of the very same people once held in thrall in the Jesuit mission system. I have seen this explained away by the Jesuit apologists as the Indians simply telling the Anglos what they wanted to hear, to entice tourism etc and yet in those same origins, even to this day, we find that the very same Amerindians are believed to know much more about the locations of the treasures and mines but will not tell the "whites"! The treasure of Bac, for instance, which includes the massive silver mentioned above, has been fairly well protected by the Pima people who protect it. They were able to bring it out and put it all on display when the Jesuits returned to Arizona in the American Civil War period, and quickly return it to hiding when the war came to the territory, where it has remained hidden ever since.

These various Amerindian tribes often see these lost mines and treasures as properly belonging to themselves! Why they would be then advertising the locations and existence to (of all people) treasure hunters is utterly illogical, but this obvious factor is not perceived by the Jesuit apologists. Again, looking at the origins of many tales of lost Jesuit treasures coming from the Amerindians themselves, we find that in most every case, this knowledge was not imparted freely, but only after the Anglos had befriended one (or more) member of the tribe, and became a trusted friend, rather than in the form of some kind of sales pitch or mythology spread at any and every opportunity to outsiders in order to attract them.

The reason I made it a point to mention that the Jesuits of Mexico owned some mines openly is that much of their activities were not openly known to the public. Many mines, for example, they held no legal title to at all, if there were any documented title, it was in the names of "trusted friends" to provide the Order with a layer of plausible deniability. Your point about the Jesuits venturing well past the "frontiers" points this factor up, for while they may have had permission to be so exploring, as with Kino's expedition to the gulf for example, this did not grant them title and right to all minerals discovered by any means.

We also see the apologists point to the farming and ranching activities of the same Jesuit missions, claiming this was their only form of wealth and activity other than saving souls, ignoring the fact that all missions of any Order had to become self-supporting, so the Jesuits like all the other Orders sought out every possible means to do so, including mining of precious metals, base metals, salt, trade in furs and hides, fisheries, pearl fisheries even milling of ores for Spanish owned mines. A number of the "Haciendas" listed in that Catholic study done on the wealth of the Jesuits at the time of their expulsion from Mexico were not cattle ranches or tobacco farms, they were mills for processing ore. Again, these were owned and operated OPENLY, so we do not have paper proof of the whole of their vast enterprises, which extended into the realm of what we would call banking activities, like mortgages and loans.

As these missions were expected to become fully self-sufficient (financially) and not simply be a drain on the Royal treasury forever, it is not hard then to understand why the monarchy was perfectly willing to turn a blind eye to a great deal of activity, with an eye to the future when these missions would not only be self supporting but would be providing tax revenues; note that one of the great favors granted to the missions was that they were exempted from paying taxes for a period of time, which the Jesuits often begged for lengthy extensions when that time alloted ran out.

To find a parallel to the Jesuits we need not look far afield, for in New Mexico we find that the area was granted to the Franciscan Order to convert and reduce, and they set to the task with fervor. So much so that the most peace loving Indians of all, the Pueblos, felt compelled to rise in revolt in 1680, killing scores of the padres, burning the missions and in particular, ALL of the documents in the capital. It took over ten years to again reduce them to subjection, and one of the conditions of making peace was that the padres must limit their activities to religious matters and agriculture, NO mining.

Exactly how many mines they <Franciscans> were operating cannot now be established due to the loss of that archive in 1680, but it cannot have been a small number for the shipments of silver especially, coming out of New Mexico in the twenty years previous to 1680 were huge. Those Spanish treasure fleets sought by so many treasure hunters were transporting almost unbelievable amounts of silver, gold and gems, and this was coming from mines for the loot from sacking the two main Amerindian empires (Aztec and Inca) stopped flowing within a few short years as those sources were fully exploited. We do not have the same amount of information on these lost mines in New Mexico in part due to the burned archives, and in part due to the Pueblo Indians having had a strong threat to any member of their tribe who might reveal those locations to an outsider. They did not ever want to return to those days of virtual enslavement again.

As you also pointed out, pretty much all of the religious Orders sent to the Spanish (and Portuguese) colonial possessions were active in mining, as for example the first gold placer mining in Arizona is (or was) credited to an Augustinian padre in the 1770s, though this is quite debatable for father Garces had set the Yumas to work mining placer gold at the two missions he established on the lower Colorado river. Garces died the "martyr's" death at the hands of his "converts" too and the gold mined was hidden by the Yumas, though there is one account that it was found in the ruins of the church a century later and removed. The Jesuits were not the first to exploit the mineral wealth and forced labor of Indians, nor were they the last.

I have gotten carried away, my apologies amigo (and to our readers) I think I have belabored the point over-much. All too often, many of us forget that we are not the first treasure hunters to seek these lost treasures and mines, many, many others came before us and had access to documents we see referred to, but have vanished into history; early treasure hunters report being able to go to the old abandoned missions and finding many old documents from the Jesuit and later Franciscan era as well, and there were no rules about their simply taking the documents for their personal use. The Franciscans of later years, specifically the early period of tourism in the Southwest, were known to even sell the old Jesuit documents for a dollar a sheet. I cannot throw stones at any of these people, in the case of the early treasure hunters, it is probable that those old documents could have been lost in any case due to being unprotected and there was no law against taking what was left abandoned, and for the Franciscan padres, they were very much in need of money. It is perhaps a wonder that we have as much documentation as we do have today.

I had thought this thread had pretty well spun out over a year ago, so was surprised to see it active again. Good luck and good hunting my amigo Pip and everyone, I fully realize that you and many of our readers already know much (or all) of what i just posted, mainly it was for the benefit of our newbies who read our discussions but usually do not post. I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[BornOnFire]

Though it seems easy to speculate that the Jesuits and their Missions were the driving force of their territories and in primary control of the infrastructure, it can not be overlooked that most of these missions and territories were also protected by garrisons of soldiers and other Representatives of the King. In the instance of Pimera Alta, the Tubac Presidio was a military outpost serving Spain and protecting her assets in the region. The Missions were constantly under threat from Apache raids and a significant resistance force was imperative for the Missions to exist at all. That being said, the Jesuits could be taking more credit than they deserve for the described masses of slaves and forced labor. The Spanish were an educated people and those sent to the new world were picked carefully and given specific purpose for their trip. A modern people in a lawless world has no master other than the eyes of God. These Explorers all had motives. Some were to save souls and others......
After these areas were established, it would seem that enterprising men would get to work rather quickly. Any resources left unchecked would be quickly annexed and claimed-including manual labor. The natives were likely easily coaxed into working for nothing and completely exploited by the multitudes of Conquistadors invading the virgin hills and valleys. The land of Rape and Honey....Surely, the Missions were eager participants. The Black Robes were the only connection these wild lands had to the ideals of civility. I imagine the Padres were also very well trusted with keeping the wealth and secrets of these many 'enterprising' men. It's no wonder that they also accumulated great wealth for the church and were responsible for protecting it from natives and Spanish alike. I would agree that the Fathers' were involved in forced labor and probably providing it to the entire territory as 'converts'. However, I am not convinced that they were the evil slave-whippers who dwell in the bowels of the blackened mines. They were probably more akin to the crooked politician who passed the bloody buck while skimming some of it off the top for the 'church'. You can also bet that they had the trust of both the natives and the Spaniards. Speaking the native language and learning the secrets of the land, the Fathers had access to the area's riches like no other. They surely exploited it for gain. Whether it was done for church or themselves, it was surely hidden well and protected fiercely. The idea that there are Jesuit Treasure Maps out there is pretty insulting. These men were no fools. They carried their secrets to the death. Are there signs out there? I believe there are. Can they be followed? After 200 or so years, probably not. But a man can dream can't he? A man can imagine himself wearing a black Robe as he stares into the hills of Peck Canyon from the east side of the Santa Cruz River. A man can also walk the ridge-lines and trails....and maybe follow the very same path that a nervous Padre did as he searched for a special place to hold his secrets...after all, we are all merely men. Though far apart in years we are all still close in spirit.