TALES OF LOST JESUIT MINES

[Springfield]

... Exactly how many mines they <Franciscans> were operating cannot now be established due to the loss of that archive in 1680, but it cannot have been a small number for the shipments of silver especially, coming out of New Mexico in the twenty years previous to 1680 were huge ...

The Franciscans' earliest New World forays are indeed intriguing and secretive, particularly Marcos de Niza's history before and after his famous travels ca 1538-40. That said, I need to take exception to your claim above - or ask for some verification.

It is true that there was some mining around Santa Fe during the 17th Century, but the Cerrillos mines yielded mostly copper minerals and the Ortiz mines some decent gold. Both sites show limited early activities. There was some silver mining near Soccorro during these times - probably those mentioned by Onate in an earlier letter back home - a modest recovery of lead/silver ore, but certainly not 'huge silver shipments' by any standards. New Mexico's abundant silver deposits were not in areas with an early Franciscan presence.

While Spanish mining had a place on the list of grievances that led to the 1680 Pueblo Revolt, it was a footnote compared to the natives' forced acceptance of the Franciscan religion and their general subjugation at the hands of the Conquistadors, via the Brothers.

 

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[Oroblanco]

The Franciscans' earliest New World forays are indeed intriguing and secretive, particularly Marcos de Niza's history before and after his famous travels ca 1538-40. That said, I need to take exception to your claim above - or ask for some verification.

It is true that there was some mining around Santa Fe during the 17th Century, but the Cerrillos mines yielded mostly copper minerals and the Ortiz mines some decent gold. Both sites show limited early activities. There was some silver mining near Soccorro during these times - probably those mentioned by Onate in an earlier letter back home - a modest recovery of lead/silver ore, but certainly not 'huge silver shipments' by any standards. New Mexico's abundant silver deposits were not in areas with an early Franciscan presence.

While Spanish mining had a place on the list of grievances that led to the 1680 Pueblo Revolt, it was a footnote compared to the natives' forced acceptance of the Franciscan religion and their general subjugation at the hands of the Conquistadors, via the Brothers.

For example, the memorial of Fray Benavides, to the king of Spain, 1630

Our Lord God has been pleased to show no lack of enthusiasm in regard to the secular well-being of this

province, which, of course, Your Majesty supplies withits greatest wants. As a good Catholic, Your Majesty

does indeed sustain both our priests and the churches.


Well, all this land is full of great treasures 

namely, very rich and prosperous silver and gold mines. As His affectionate chaplains and vassals, we customaril

y ask God for things likethis. And applying a little diligence, as an intelligent person will do, we did indeed discover these mines. We have Him endless thanks

for this in the name of Your Majesty



in particular for the range3

near the pueblo of Socorro, which is the principal and primary settlement of this province of the Piros . . .

The ease with which silver may be taken from this range is the greatest in all the Indies. It would be

wiser to extract eight ounces of silver here than many more ounces from other places, as elsewhere mining

materials and supplies must be hauled from great distances to a source of water, which is certainly necessary

to extract silver anywhere. But in these Socorro mines everything needed for the job is right at hand.

And although it is true that at the beginning of our conversions we simply tried to get Indian labor for the

minds, I now believe that, all things considered, the mines should be administered only by moderately greedy

persons. These administrators should treat the Indians well and pay them for their work, paying close

attention from the outset to their rather simple capacities and their lackadaisical work habits. Not only should

they be gathered up to perform these labors, but they should also be gently guided down the proper road,

compelled to follow our way of doing things and our speech. .

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/pds/amerbegin/settlement/text5/BenavidesFranciscanReport.pdf

The shipments of silver out of New Mexico prior to 1680 were famous enough to induce the French to attempt to reach the mines, Farther Marquette led an expedition in 1673. As you know the whole of the archives of the province of New Mexico were burned in the revolt, or perhaps we would have more documentation. If the output of the mines of New Mexico were indeed so minor as to be almost unworthy of notice, why did the fame reach the court of France and result in such a long and dangerous expedition?

I don't know if I could agree that the forced conversion to Catholicism was the main issue leading to the revolt; enslavement (and many Pueblo Indians being sent to the mines of Parral for example) could have been the biggest issue, though the revolt's main players were the witch doctors.

Good luck and good hunting Springfield and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

For example, the memorial of Fray Benavides, to the king of Spain, 1630

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/pds/amerbegin/settlement/text5/BenavidesFranciscanReport.pdf

The shipments of silver out of New Mexico prior to 1680 were famous enough to induce the French to attempt to reach the mines, Farther Marquette led an expedition in 1673. As you know the whole of the archives of the province of New Mexico were burned in the revolt, or perhaps we would have more documentation. If the output of the mines of New Mexico were indeed so minor as to be almost unworthy of notice, why did the fame reach the court of France and result in such a long and dangerous expedition?

I don't know if I could agree that the forced conversion to Catholicism was the main issue leading to the revolt; enslavement (and many Pueblo Indians being sent to the mines of Parral for example) could have been the biggest issue, though the revolt's main players were the witch doctors.

Good luck and good hunting Springfield and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Yes, the Benavides report. Digging a little deeper will reveal that Benavides was, as he states, enthusiastic but also prone to extreme exaggeration. That said, decent lead/silver ore was found near Magdalena in the 1860's, and later, the Kelly Mine was a bonanza following advances in extractive technology for rich lead-zinc-silver ores. Indeed, 'huge silver shipments' from Socorro occurred, but it was 200 years following the revolt.

The Jesuits Jacques Marquette and Louis Joliet were attempting to confirm a water route to the Pacific when they found the Mississippi River and followed it in 1673. They of course were aware of the Quivera and Tiguex (Cibola) rumors that the Spanish had chased a hundred years earlier. It seems quite a stretch to assume they believed in huge Franciscan silver shipments from New Mexico based on the Benavides report. Possible, I guess, but not a major motivator for their explorations, IMO.

There undoubtedly was enslavement of the natives by zealous Franciscans in New Mexico in the 17th century (although they likely didn't see it that way), probably including work in the Cerrillos and Ortiz mines. The revolt had much more to do with spiritual and cultural highjacking than limited work in the mines. The feelings are still strong in New Mexico pueblos, especially Taos, where the insistent christians are now tolerated but not embraced by many. I find it interesting that when the usually placid Hopi participated in the 1680 revolt, they killed all the priests and tore apart the church stone by stone and burnt whatever was left.

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield, I have to respectfully disagree. To explain why, and support that the French expedition of Marquette had as one of its prime reasons being to locate the rich mines of New Mexico, here is an extract, quote

Of the first Voyage made by Father Marquette toward new Mexico, and How the idea thereof was conceived.

In The year 1673, Monsieur The Count De Frontenac, Our Governor, and Monsieur Talon, then Our Intendant, Recognizing The Importance of this discovery, — either that they might seek a passage from here to the sea of China, by the river that discharges into the Vermillion, or California Sea; or because they desired to verify what has for some time been said concerning the 2 Kingdoms of Theguaio And Quiuira, which Border on Canada, and in which numerous gold mines are reported to exist, — these Gentlemen, I say, appointed at the same time [Page 87] for This undertaking Sieur Jolyet, whom they considered very fit for so great an enterprise; and they were well pleased that Father Marquette should be of the party.

“Theguaio, or commonly Tiguex, and sometimes apparently Tejas, and Quivira... [which] lay east of the country north of the river Gila, and are probably the present New Mexico and Texas, were first made known by the attempt of a Franciscan missionary [Fray Marc, in 1539] to reach the rich countries of the interior.“” — Shea’s notes, Disc. of Miss. Valley, p. 4.

From The Jesuit Relations &c, Vol 59, CXXXVI-CXXXVIII Voyages Du P. Jacques Marquette, 1673-75 pp 86-87 and footnotes

Marquette's mission was based on info that had reached all the way to the court of the king of France, that rich mines were located in New Mexico and perhaps could be reached from French colonial America. Finding a route to the Pacific was the other key mission of the expedition, not the sole reason, both missions held equal importance.

Of course I was not there in 1630 nor 1670 or 1680 so can't say for sure. To me it appears there is a smoking gun however, so I stand by my statements, and you are free and welcome to disagree. I could say that the sky is blue too, and of course there are times when it is black, making that statement partially false.

Good luck and good hunting Springfield and anyone reading this, apologies for drifting a bit off-topic (Franciscans vs Jesuits) but basically same general subject matter. The loss of the official records of the province of New Mexico in 1680 leave us free to speculate in either direction, whether there were mines or not, but communications which were not stored in NM survive. I have to doubt rather strongly that Fray Benavides would exaggerate rich gold and silver mines to the king of Spain in an official communications, especially as this would certainly lead the royal authorities to expect tax revenues to accrue from them. Also, those Spanish treasure fleets were not loaded with coconuts, and their cargoes came from mines after the looting of the Aztec and Inca ended. But that is just my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs as well.

Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Great post, Oro. I stand corrected on the Marquette/Joliet Expedition. I hadn't previously seen the referenced document, which certainly does emphasize the alleged mineral richness in today's American Southwest. While Frontenac and Talon may have been influenced by the Benavides report, I still believe it was highly exaggerated and misleading.

I find it interesting that the French Jesuits apparently continued to reference Marcos de Niza's new world exploits 130 years after the fact. Marcos, whom the Spanish reviled and wanted to kill following the ill-fated Coronado Expedition in 1540, returned to Mexico 'in shame' but was quickly appointed to the Franciscans' top position in Mexico, a position he held until his death in 1558. According to Antonio de Ciudad-Rodrigo, whom Marcos succeeded, “he was held in high esteem by members of his Order, not only on account of his virtue and piety, but also for his acquirements in theology, cosmography and the art of navigation.” As you say, we weren't there, but it sure would be interesting to know for sure what Marcos and Estavanico found in New Mexico in 1539. Maybe the Franciscans kept secrets.

 

[Oroblanco]

I agree Springfield - rather peculiar that de Niza's story held such interest, and so far away at that.

Another interesting character in this period is the ex-governor of NM Don Diego de Peñalosa. His efforts to induce France to invade and conquer NM (including his tale of having journeyed to Quivira with 80 men) along with La Salle's plan to build a fort in Texas, possibly as a launching base for an overland trek by an army (not many years after Marquette's expedition) get lost in the history. Actually it is a little surprising that more treasure hunters are not interested in New Mexico, but I guess Arizona gets all the publicity.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

...Another interesting character in this period is the ex-governor of NM Don Diego de Peñalosa....

Oro, here's an interesting take on Penalosa and his Quivira quest, a Marc Simmons article in The Socorro Chieftain:

Diego de Peñalosa’s intrigue

Who today knows the name of Diego de Penalosa? Very few people, I suspect, even though he was one of the more fascinating of New Mexico’s Spanish colonial governors (1661-1664).

Other New Mexican governors, like Oñate, Vargas and Anza, are well remembered and theier names grace schools, streets and public buildings. But not Peñalosa. He has been all but buried in the ash can of history.

And, there is a pretty good reason for that. The man was an opportunist and a scoundrel, and he came to be regarded as a traitor by the Spanish government. He also excelled in the forging of documents.
All of these things make him an interesting historical figure. Therefore, it is to be regretted that we possess only sketchy details of his checkered career.

Born in Peru, Don Diego de Peñalosa must have come to New Spain (Mexico) sometime around the mid-17th century. He was said to have an attractive personality and the ability to charm people, especially those in high places.

But, he was also a troublemaker. In Peru, he had killed a man in a fight and the viceroy ordered his arrest. Don Diego, however, fled north and eventually landed in Mexico City.

After serving in several minor government jobs, he was given the post of governor of New Mexico. That was not exactly a plum. New Mexico in those days was poor, thinly populated and uncomfortable.

With an escort, Penalosa traveled up the Camino Real to assume his new job. At El Paso, he was met by citizens from the north who accompanied him to Santa Fe, which he reached in August 1661.

The capital was then a bleak place and Don Diego decided to spend his term feathering his own nest. Among other crimes, he enslaved scores of Apaches and marched them off to Chihuahua and Sonora to be sold in the mines. And he illegally squeezed labor and saleable goods out of the poor Pueblo Indians.
That brought him into conflict with the Franciscan missionaries. Indeed, Don Diego developed a running feud with the padres. That would later prove his downfall.

When his term ended in 1664, he rode back to Mexico City, taking the profits made from his corrupt administration. Within a few months, reckless spending left him broke. Then he was arrested by the Inquisition for crimes committed in New Mexico.

Held in the dungeons of the Inquisition for 23 months, Peñalosa was finally brought to trial and fond guilty on an assortment of charges. As punishment, he was given a stiff fine, forced to march as a penitent in a public procession carrying a green candle and exiled forever from Spain’s empire in America. In 1668, he bid goodbye to Mexico and took ship for Europe.

As near as we can tell, Don Diego nursed a desire for vengeance against Spain. The next year he turned up in England and tried to interest the government there in a bold plan to attack the Spanish colonies. After four fruitless years of devising schemes and lobbying British officials, he gave up and went to Paris in 1673.

Immediately, he began petitioning French King Louis IV to support him in leading an attack on New Mexico. What he proposed was to land on the Texas Gulf Coast with a French army and march overland to capture Santa Fe. With New Mexico as a base, he could afterward move south and seize the silver mines of Chihuahua.

It was a bold idea, if unrealistic and far-fetched in design. But it interested the king enough that he kept Don Diego dangling on a string for years.

Nothing happened until 1684 when the French explorer La Salle returned from the New World with his own proposal to colonize the mouth of the Mississippi River. Evidently, he and Peñalosa decided to unite their schemes.

In that year, Don Diego presented a document to the French government called “Relation of the Discovery of Quivira.” He represented it as being an account of an expedition he made in 1662, while governor of New Mexico. In it he claimed to have traveled with 80 Spanish soldiers from Santa Fe to Quivira on the Kansas plains where he found rich gold mines.

The document, of course, was a complete fraud, aimed at winning support from French officials. Peñalosa, as New Mexico history confirms, never made any such trip. Then he and La Salle parted company.

In 1687 Diego de Peñalosa died in Paris, leaving little more than a blackened reputation and a curious footnote in the history books.

 

[Oroblanco]

thank you Springfield for posting that - very interesting take on Penalosa!
Roy

 

[BuffaloBob]

Mike is this thread still active?
Thanks
BB

 

[gollum]

BB,

If you can post on it, it is still active. HAHAHA Nobody has posted anything here in about a year and a half, but it pops up.

Mike

 

[deducer]

Where is Roy? He hasn't posted in a long time. Hope he is okay.

 

[gollum]

I know Roy lost his taste for most of these forums because of the argumentative folks. Not the ones that really want to understand, but the ones that don't add to the discussion and are just here to cause disturbances. Trolls to be precise.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

I know Roy lost his taste for most of these forums because of the argumentative folks. Not the ones that really want to understand, but the ones that don't add to the discussion and are just here to cause disturbances. Trolls to be precise.

Mike

Mike,

As far as I'm concerned, that is a great loss for Tnet. I still get emails from him, so I can vouch for their being in good health.

They did know their history.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Oh, I'm sure Roy will be back. He can't stay away from a good Jesuit or PreColumbian Phoenician Debate! HAHAHA

Also, a quick look shows he made a post on 15 January 2015. He is just not as active as he used to be.

Mike

 

[Kauziamos]

Roy! You see? You are missed! Ignore the trolls and come back! I hope you are finding the treasure you seek, or working on that book of yours!

 

[Leones Corazon]

Juan Antonio Balthasar - padre Visitor To The Sonoran Frontier 1744-1755 by Peter Masten Dunne. Published in 1957

Page 97. " His Excellancy, the Govenor ( Don Augustine de Vildosola ) in his present high office, owes to our men what he has been and the position which he now holds. Without their help, he would have made little or no progress. In this connection we should mention especially Father Canas (Cristobal De Canas of Arizpe) and Father Toral ( Jose Toral of Banamichi 1740). The former pointed out to him a gold mine from which he extracted more than 100,000 pesos, and both of them loaned him money in order to get him started in commercial enterprises.

Read enough dusty old books and one is bound to find little nuggets of info. I guess it matters not ones station in life...greeds had can taint the best of us.

 

[Leones Corazon]

GMC's are quite the cats but in Saudi/Dubai etc. for some reason. Its a status sysmbol to have an 73-89 GMC long bed step side for some reason...

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy! You see? You are missed! Ignore the trolls and come back! I hope you are finding the treasure you seek, or working on that book of yours!

Sorry I was absent from class, things got a little crazy around here. More than the normal state that is, and just not enough hours in the day to indulge in T-net. Muchas gracias for the concern but all is OK here, if anything were wrong I would let you <my friends> know anyway. I was feeling down for a bit over the loss of my dog too, which I was reminded of every time I read treasure type stuff so I avoided checking in to T-net. Anyway all is well here, can't even complain about the weather!

Great post Lion Heart please do continue,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Take your time, I know how you feel when one of our best friends _if you can call those man eating hounds of the Baskervilles, friends - leaves us, sides he 'was' nice. I enjoyed meeting him.

 

[BuffaloBob]

how did it jump from triumph to Jesuits..?

I miss my old Norton atlas...bad knee.
lucas, the prince of darkness...made me a lot of money repairing switch and wire harness issues.

I am very familiar with NORTON bikes. Buddy had the one cylinder 600cc that I had to push start Over and over.. but got to ride it so no problem. Except dead of night.. he driving me country road no lights and.. yes the big headlamp just quit. Went out like a light. Prince Of Darkness is good. Also rode Royal Enfields, CZ 2 stroke, Triumphs and NSUs and had my own 1949 HD 125cc Hummer. Which had two rubber banda on front fork which often came loose. Also a Whizzer as my first bike. Old days...