tayopa, legend or reality ...?

[WilliamTheFinder]

I visit the installation on a daily basis, it's part of a larger library which is also an excellent location for books on the occult, alchemy, and the supernatural.

The microfilm library contains many books that are translated from the original Latin, but I'd bet all the letters from the new world would be in latin and untranslated.

 

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[Gossamer]

I love it! William that is so cool, ::::getting out my trusty latin dictionary::::: The occult is a special subject for me.
William, have you ever run across anything the Jesuits wrote about Arizona, especially the Grand Canyon? Cave complexes?
Thank you in advance,
Janiece

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

Not off the top of my head, but there might be something...I'll ask the other librarians when I go in on Thursday.
I work more with 16th century jesuits in the sciences,

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: tayopa, legend or reality ...? (Slightly off-topic post, beg your indulgence

WilliamTheFinder - this is a little off topic (apologies to thread owner & moderators - delete if this is offensive) but in your own research, did you ever run across any mention of any Jesuit ventures into what is now Wyoming? (Or SD for that matter) I will explain by PM if you like, just curious and thank you in advance,
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[WilliamTheFinder]

I'll get back to you on that...
we have documents pertaining to official jesuit activities in north and south America from the discovery of the new world until about 1850. We also have letters and a few reports to other jesuit colleges about what the new world is generally like.
The problem is that most records pertain to official stuff, so I don't know if anything about lost silver mines or whatever you're looking for is going to be logged. I don't know anything about activity in wyoming but I'll look

 

[Gossamer]

William I'm not looking for silver but I'm very curious about a cave supposedly found in the Grand Canyon, with the culture of the Jesuit's relationship with native tribes, I wonder if there might be a mention of any Out of Place Objects... otherwise known as OOPARTS... thanks in advance.
I'm curious, what brings you here?
I put the link for the GC cave so if you are interested... let me know.
Janiece
http://www.mayanmajix.com/art279.html

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

WilliamTheFinder – no lost silver or gold mines involved, just curious if there were ever any attempt at founding a Jesuit mission, or even an exploration into the region. There are a couple of (ruins) missions, which as far as I know, no one has managed to identify which Order ever founded, though one is believed to be Spanish and in a very remote place. No need to go to any extra efforts, was just curious if you recalled ever running across any mention.
Your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Piccu Coati update

A few pages back in this thread, the subject of the legendary serpent 'Piccu Coate' surfaced. I heard from a friend today that a new possible identification of this snake (aka 'Two-Step') has been suggested. Based on the recent capture of a pygmy Mojave Green rattlesnake in Portal, AZ, apparently milked of quite potent venom, it may be that this rare species is the possible source of the legend. Quein sabe?

 

[Springfield]

William I'm not looking for silver but I'm very curious about a cave supposedly found in the Grand Canyon, with the culture of the Jesuit's relationship with native tribes, I wonder if there might be a mention of any Out of Place Objects... otherwise known as OOPARTS... thanks in advance.
I'm curious, what brings you here?
I put the link for the GC cave so if you are interested... let me know.
Janiece
http://www.mayanmajix.com/art279.html

Try to contact Jack Andrews re GC cave - he was doing extensive work on this several years ago. I don't think his website is currently active. He placed the cave in Marble Canyon.

 

[Gossamer]

Springfield
Try to contact Jack Andrews re GC cave

I've read everything that is out there.. and then some. LOL
Just curious if anything is in the old Vatican files.
Thanks, Janiece

 

[Infosponge]

Howdy WTF,

Would you happen to have access to a copy of "Ars Magna Sciendi" by Athanasius Kircher S.J. 1601-1680

Thanks,

Infosponge

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening Sprngfield: you posted -->

Based on the recent capture of a pygmy Mojave Green rattlesnake in Portal, AZ, apparently milked of quite potent venom, it may be that this rare species is the possible source of the legend. Quein sabe?
~~~~~~~~~~~

We have small green rattlesnakes over by Piedras verdes, the green rocks, and an almost brownish black one on the cerro preito, the black mountain. Is it just a coincidence that the rattle snakes now match their surroundigs?

The Cerro Prieto black ones are extremely potent. they removed soo many of them to milk them that the gov't stepped in and made them a protected species. They run about 2 - 3 ft. the green ones also.

Th e Pichi quate ( piccu coate) that I saw was only about 9 -10 inches long and was a light tan with the typical viper head.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Janiece,

The man in this photo is Roy Luebben. He was the "Dutchman" prior to Bob Wright. I believe he passed away around 1977. I imagine there were others, but don't really know without doing a little research. I trust my source for this information is correct.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Correction: Roy died in 1973. Lulu passed away in 2003.

 

[Gossamer]

THANK YOU!! That means a lot to me. I appreciate knowing who he was.
I noticed something in the pic I hadn't before, the look on my face, I'll bet its because he has a hold of my hand. (probably because I was either getting his hat, or pointing to his horse/mule? LMAO
Again thank you Joe!
Janiece

 

[cactusjumper]

Janiece,

You are quite welcome.

Lost Dutchman Days was named by Lulu Luebben, Roy's wife. He was the first officially elected Lost Dutchman. It started in 1965.

You may notice that I have corrected the spelling of the last name. Luebben is the correct version. Type Roy and Lulu Luebben in your search engine, and you will find a great deal about this couple.

The information comes from a story written in 1999 about Lost Dutchman Days by, Tom Kollenborn.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Wow, the misinformation being written on this thread is absolutely overwhelming. First, the Vatican Film Library was NOT started during WWII, it began in 1951 with funds from the K of C. To date, approximately 37,000 works have been recorded, thus making the Vatican Film Library the largest library of Roman Catholic works outside of the Vatican.

The intention of the Vatican Film Library was NOT to preserve the contents of the Vatican Library in the event of an attack, it was contrived as an alternate information source for those people interested in the exploring the history of the Roman Catholic Church. Virtually all of the documents of the Society of Jesus is housed in the Vatican Film Library, along with their originals being housed in Rome.

In regards to the Archivio Segreto Vaticano, or the Secret Vatican Archives, there are some Papal letters from the secret archive housed at the Vatican Film Library, however the VAST bulk of the Vatican Secret Archives are maintained in Rome. The reason why the Vatican Secret Archives are restricted is because the records whicha are housed within it's walls have been sealed by the confessional and they can never be reviewed. In maintaining the customs and traditions of the Roman Catholic faith, a persons' sins, once confessed must never be revealed to another living person, even under pang of death. Period. All remaining records related to the Seal of the Confessional shall remain sealed. Forever.

Practically all official Roman Catholic records, including those from the Society of Jesus, were scripted in Latin, at least until sometime after 1967. While the vast majority of the archives is in Latin, there exists many works written in Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic and other languages of the day.

The Vatican Film Library is in fact open to the public and anyone wishing to research the volumes housed in library only need to visit there. They keep no secrets as far as I am aware. As a point of fact, anyone wishing to research the historical records of the Society of Jesus may start by following this link:
http://www.slu.edu/libraries/vfl/jsuitca/main.html
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Lamar, welcome back: You posted -->

The Tayopa legend, and trust me, it IS naught but a legend, was unknown to the general public until a writer named J. Frank Dobie (who happens to be from my part of the woods, btw) collected various stories handed down over the years and condensed all of them into a believable treasure yarn. It was at that time the legend of Tayopa started gathering steam, until today, where the tale has been told and retold so many times, with each successive teller adding a bit or a pit of additional credible evidence, until people are absolutely convinced that the mine MUST exist, and all that is left for someone to find it
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

First, "unknown to the general public" is an intersting statement. This means that it existed long prior to Dobie, and there had to be a basis in the first place since legends do not grow out of thin air. Can you name me one?

Incidentally, it is well known in the sierras here by people that cannot even read, let alone know of any Dobie.

As with all legends, it can / will be be corrupted with the retelling, but this does not negate it being based upon fact.
************************************************************************************

You -->
In order to add a shred of credibility to the Tayopa legend, I challenge any and all forum members to offer ONE morsel of CREDIBLE historical data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you mean Jesuit data, that is nicely sealed in the confessional archives in Rome, which according to you, will never be released
*************************************************************************************
You -->
there exists not a single shred of credible evidence which can tie the Jesuits into "illegal mining" in the New World,.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since this would be an "illegal operation" (sin) then any records would be placed in a confessional status,. never to be opened.

May I ask why records are kept "never be opened"? What would be the purpose in the first place, why not simply destroy them?
**************************************************************************************

In a dual answer to you and my friend Cub, To clarify something that I have stated various times,

I am NOT "looking" for Tayopa, I own it. I.E. I have found it" .

I have many reasons for not having had any activity. It has been sitting limbo ever since I developed cancer, which I cured. I am attempting to reactivate the permits and archaeological agreements with the Mexican gov. I now have sufficient capital to finish the job myself, when all legal paper work is done.
************************************************************************************** ORO, you posted -->

we can use your statements as proof that the Society of Jesus has absolutely NO legal claim to anything he recovers
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Unfortunately he has no legal status to speak for the Jesuit society .
**************************************************************************************

ED, you will have to wait until Tayopa is finally opened for the book. Patience, after all, I have some 50 years invested in it. heheh..

ORO, if we do have the bull session, I will help you attend. also I will show you the secret of why Tayopa could exist, be soo rich, and have been so elusive.

Don Jose de La mancha

 

[Gossamer]

I am NOT "looking" for Tayopa, I own it. I.E. I have found it" .

Don Jose de La mancha
Now thats a story I would love to read!
Take lots of pics...
Janiece

 

[lamar]

Dear Real de Tayopa;
To clarify my first statement, I meant the general public at large, to include anyone not from the immediate surrounding area where Tayopa is supposedly located at.

To clarify my next statement, there seems to be a large amount of misconception regarding the Vatican Secret Archives. First, the very name, Archivum Secretum Apostolicum Vaticanum, causes the mind to race wildly with thoughts of deep, dark hidden secrets. The Latin name only means that the archives are not meant to be viewed by the general public.

This, however, was not always the case. Sometime in the 17th century, it was ordered by the presiding Pontfic at the time that the entire restricted archives be removed from the general library and housed separately and they were to remain absolutely off limits to all outsiders.

So, just what sort of information could one reasonably expect to find the Archivum Secretum Apostolicum Vaticanum? Not the information of the sort that might lead a person to untold lost treasures, my friend. Inside the Archivum Secretum Apostolicum Vaticanum are the entire accounts of the Vatican, state documents and policies, and other drab, boring documents.

Then, just where is the really juicy material hidden away at? Those salicious bits of information are secreted away in an even more secret part of the Archivum Secretum Apostolicum Vaticanum, and this archive is called the Penitentiarium, or the Apostolic Penitentiary in English and these documents remain sealed by the confessor-penitent. Most of the documents housed in the Apostolic Penitentiary pertain to Papal writings and acts committed within the realm of the Vatican. In other words, the writings mostly pertain to dealings within the Vatican and there is scant information on personal levels. Some of the writings within the Apostolic Penitentiary are political in nature and they may show a lot of political intrigue, in much the same manner as any soverign nation would.

The supposedly illegal activities of the Society of Jesus or any other monastetic organization would not be housed in the Archivum Secretum Apostolicum Vaticanum or the Apostolic Penitentiary, simply because the Jesuits were never involved in any illegal mining activities, and if any records of such activities did exist, then the best place to look for those records would be in the Spanish Royal archives.

The Spaniards kept absolutely meticulous records of virtually every facet of their vast empire and if there were any underhandedness taking place, then you could most assuredly bet that there would have been ten court scribes with plumes in hand, ready to record every last detail.

If you, or anyone else, is interested in visiting the Vatican Secret Archives, I might suggest that you follow this link:
http://asv.vatican.va/home_en.htm
This is the official link to the Vatican Secret Archives, my friend, however I do not feel that they house the answers for the questions you are asking.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Real de Tayopa;
Strictly as an aside, the Archivum Secretum Apostolicum Vaticanum is opened to qualified researchers as it has been for the last 100 years. No browsing permitted and please keep noise to a bare minimum. If a document is more than 75 years old, unless it is deemed to contain state secrets or containpenitent confessions, it will be made available for public viewing.
Your friend;
LAMAR