The Answer Rest Here

[bigscoop]

The NSA deals in matters of national security so if they held any true interest/concern in the Beale paper story then it likely had less to do with money and more to do with concerns surrounding the source of that money.

 

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[ECS]

... You clearly stated, when asked how your author knew about those two undeniable sources of wealth, that he had read about them in grandpa Risque's library while reading about the Adams Onis Treaty...

Bigscoop, if you reread post #165, you will notice the word "maybe".
As with the Beale story, you over analyze what is written, then modify the information to support your point of view.
I'm surprised that you didn't turn the "old bullion" cube broth remark into evidence of the two deposits.

 

[bigscoop]

Bigscoop, if you reread post #165, you will notice the word "maybe".
As with the Beale story, you over analyze what is written, then modify the information to support your point of view.
I'm surprised that you didn't turn the "old bullion" cube broth remark into evidence of the two deposits.

Nice attempt to dodge again, but you clearly suggested that "maybe" Ward learned of the two sources of undeniable wealth by review of the Adams Onis Treaty in grandpa Risque's library, which is clear suggestion that perhaps that information was indeed contained in that documentation, which it clearly is not. Add to this, that in all of your failed attempts to justify your position you have not even bothered to deny that the two sources of wealth are indeed the undeniable sources being references in the Beale deposits and you have still failed to explain how your author knew about them. And yes, I agree, I do analyze everything, and in great detail sometimes. Good, in depth R&I often requires it.

Look, you can continue to try to attack what you clearly know little about or you can, perhaps, learn more about these recorded and documented subjects and issues before you attempt to debate them. Up to you?

 

[ECS]

Once again, I never mentioned "wealth distribution" ,only the dates.
As with Littlefield's treatment of the "Wizard of Oz", one can over analyze the source material, then over research historical events to force fit them into a pet theory until that theory has mutated well beyond the original source material and becomes something else entirely.
It is evident from the way you spin my quotes to fit your rebuttals, that you are doing the same with your research to fit your pet theory.

 

[bigscoop]

Once again, I never mentioned "wealth distribution" ,only the dates.
As with Littlefield's treatment of the "Wizard of Oz", one can over analyze the source material, then over research historical events to force fit them into a pet theory until that theory has mutated well beyond the original source material and becomes something else entirely.
It is evident from the way you spin my quotes to fit your rebuttals, that you are doing the same with your research to fit your pet theory.

Dude, you are so lost in what you have said that you can't even clarify what you have you have said. The original question presented to you was, "how did your author know about the undeniable sources of wealth that weren't even made public until the mid/late 1940's?" In your reply you suggested that maybe your author had learned about them by reviewing the Adams Onis Treaty in grandpa Risque's library. A) this implies that you think it was possible that this information existed in the Adams Onis Treaty, and B) in your reply you also confirmed that the dates of these two sources of wealth were also related to the Beale story by suggesting that your author had used these same literary devices/dates that he discovered in grandpa Risque's library and within the Adam's Onis Treaty, as part of his novel. End of story, no twisting anything here, this is all maintained in your reply, not mine.

Look, I'm just not all that interested in continuing these pointless debates with you so if it will relieve some of your obvious tensions allow me to say that i have no idea what I'm talking about and that you are 100% accurate in all of your personal assessments. Will this help you to feel better about things?

 

[ECS]

Well maybe Ward was sipping a broth made from old bullion cubes while in Grandfather Risque's library, saw a copy of the Adams-Onis Treaty. and decided to incorporate the signing and ratification dates into his tale.
No forged Lafitte memoirs required.

Bigscoop, this is the post to which you keep referring.

 

[bigscoop]

Bigscoop, this is the post to which you keep referring.

Yes, it is. Now post the question to which this response was made. Here I'll do it yet again for you....."How did your author know about those two undeniable sources of wealth when that information wasn't made public until the mid/late 1940's?"

Your reply to this question - "Well maybe Ward was sipping a broth made from old bullion cubes while in Grandfather Risque's library, saw a copy of the Adams-Onis Treaty. and decided to incorporate the signing and ratification dates into his tale."

In this reply you have used the Adam's Onis Treaty to address a question in regards to the two undeniable sources of wealth that are part of the presented chronological order, that being the same two sources of wealth in the, and I quote, "No forged Lafitte memoirs required." Clearly you recognized that the two referenced "undeniable sources of wealth" came from the Laffite Memoirs which, apparently, were not even required.

Obviously, you're just continuing to attempt to make argument at every chance and opportunity without even considering the scope and content or accuracy in your own responses. Look, it was my question, a simple one, and you made reply to it, not me. Don't blame me for what you typed into that little white space.

 

[ECS]

The reference to the "forged Lafitte Memoirs" was made because most of your theory is based on the mentioned two deposits and the name Sherman that appear in that work.
As evidence, that would be considered as fruit from the poisoned tree.
Instead of rebutting a humorous quip I made, why don't you tell how the "author" knew about those dates, without including every incidental bit of that period's history that has no connection to the story written in the Beale Papers.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

It's complicated, impossible to explain in short exchanges other then to say that the answer isn't as simple as we would all like it to be. Slavery, as example, was a main source of business coming out of Galveston Island and its tentacles were far-reaching and of constant national concern and debate. To give you an idea just how huge and impacting the slave trade was, as part of the terms of compensation in the Treaty of Ghent (1818) the British eventually agreed to restorations of over 1.2mil dollars. It might also surprise you to know that one of the major US representatives in reaching this treaty agreement was the ambassador to, "France" and that an arbitrator from Russia eventually arrived at this final figure. So when we think of these treaties between the US and Spain and the US and the British we have to also realize that these treaties were also of international interest and influence as well.

Well, selling Slaves was the SECOND big biz in Lynchburg, Va. back in "those days"; TOBACCO was the Number ONE big biz. ALL the way down to Richmond, Va. on the James River; (flatboats).

 

[bigscoop]

The reference to the "forged Lafitte Memoirs" was made because most of your theory is based on the mentioned two deposits and the name Sherman that appear in that work.
As evidence, that would be considered as fruit from the poisoned tree.
Instead of rebutting a humorous quip I made, why don't you tell how the "author" knew about those dates, without including every incidental bit of that period's history that has no connection to the story written in the Beale Papers.

Based on the amount of research and investigation you have personally conducted into all of the required arenas, you are 100% correct in all of your personal conclusions.

 

[bigscoop]

Well, selling Slaves was the SECOND big biz in Lynchburg, Va. back in "those days"; TOBACCO was the Number ONE big biz. ALL the way down to Richmond, Va. on the James River; (flatboats).

It's interesting how far back the slave issue really goes and how much impact it held on a lot of different issues. There were a lot of issues that you would just never think of slaves coming into play and yet they often did. The other thing that's really difficult to wrap a head around is how much influence other nations had on a lot of treaties because a lot of these treaties ultimately impacted them as well in ways we're just anticipating.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

The reference to the "forged Lafitte Memoirs" was made because most of your theory is based on the mentioned two deposits and the name Sherman that appear in that work.
As evidence, that would be considered as fruit from the poisoned tree.
Instead of rebutting a humorous quip I made, why don't you tell how the "author" knew about those dates, without including every incidental bit of that period's history that has no connection to the story written in the Beale Papers.

Forged Celeste Beale Memoirs seen to be making there way to the internet.

 

[bigscoop]

Well, selling Slaves was the SECOND big biz in Lynchburg, Va. back in "those days"; TOBACCO was the Number ONE big biz. ALL the way down to Richmond, Va. on the James River; (flatboats).

I believe that most people don't fully understand the absolute importance and value that the slave trade held over this country during the period in question. Without slave labor, thus the slave trade, the greatest portion of the south would immediately fall into financial ruin. So when folks consider the illicit activities of Laffite during the period they really need to consider why it was allowed to continue when the US clearly had the opportunities and the ability to stop it. While the promise of possible pardon after the battle of New Orleans might appear as nice and appropriate gesture, one also has to consider the fallout in the south if these slave traffickers and their valuable trade is unwisely brought to a halt. While the War with the British might assume to be over with the Treaty of Ghent the real war was still looming in the manner of politics, which in effect, is where wars are really won or lost. Nothing more devastating in the outcome of war then the destroying of the opponent's financial infrastructure through political means.


“On January 16[SUP]th[/SUP], 1815, at a meeting of the eight signatories of the Treaty of Paris in Vienna, Great Britain proposes an end to the international slave trade.” Where then, might this have left the south and the financial infrastructure within? Can one now see advantage to the continued allowing of the illicit slave trade entering the US. We wonder how Laffite was still able to survive with so many trying to eradicate his trade during the period. Just how many slaves from his illicit activities made it into influential hands might never be fully realized. Placing a number upon the value of his illicit trade might just also exceed the imagination.

By means of secret resolution the president used military force against those piratical activities at Amelia Island and yet he completely ignored these same concerns and complaints regarding Galveston Island, and in fact, all of these final issues were the result of secret negations that there is no exacting record of. Kearny went ashore at Galveston Island to counsel with the occupants, not once, but twice. George Graham was sent there on secret mission by this same president to hold counsel with the occupants. Why all of the politics and unrecorded negotiations?

 

[ECS]

Based on the amount of research and investigation you have personally conducted into all of the required arenas, you are 100% correct in all of your personal conclusions.

With all the historical "evidence" that you keep expanding upon, the further away from the actual Beale story in the pamphlet you get.Where is the mention of slavery in the 1885 Beale Papers?

 

[bigscoop]

With all the historical "evidence" that you keep expanding upon, the further away from the actual Beale story in the pamphlet you get.Where is the mention of slavery in the 1885 Beale Papers?

Based on your personal investigation and research into all of these various arenas presented you are 100% correct in all of your personal opinions. But just to illustrate an obviously profound point, where is grandpa Risque's library, or even grandpa Risque, referenced in the Beale papers? But based on your continued points and facts of expressed debate I'm sure it has to be openly referenced somewhere in this narration. I just must have missed it. Perhaps you can point us directly to it?

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Still fishing I see.

No, just razzing the bar !

 

[ECS]

... just to illustrate an obviously profound point, where is grandpa Risque's library, or even grandpa Risque, referenced in the Beale papers? But based on your continued points and facts of expressed debate I'm sure it has to be openly referenced somewhere in this narration....

The same place Lafitte, Sherman, Graham, Girard, opium, slavery, etc is referenced in the 1885 Beale Papers- nowhere, but Ward did have a connection to Risqué by blood, no "connexion" to the above names or events except for possibly Mathew "Mexico" Sherman, by way of his cousin, who printed the job pamphlet.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Cool new thread just opened !

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Based on your personal investigation and research into all of these various arenas presented you are 100% correct in all of your personal opinions. But just to illustrate an obviously profound point, where is grandpa Risque's library, or even grandpa Risque, referenced in the Beale papers? But based on your continued points and facts of expressed debate I'm sure it has to be openly referenced somewhere in this narration. I just must have missed it. Perhaps you can point us directly to it?

JB Ward's father (Giles) got JB Risque' s LAW BOOKS; JB Risque is BURIED in Presbyterian Cemetery on Bailey/Grace Streets in Lynchburg, Va. (behind Maj. ES Hutter's grave-site), on GRACE ST. (SEEN IT!). AND! CSA MAX is ALSO buried in P.C.; (SEEN IT!).

 

[bigscoop]

JB Ward's father (Giles) got JB Risque' s LAW BOOKS; JB Risque is BURIED in Presbyterian Cemetery on Bailey/Grace Streets in Lynchburg, Va. (behind Maj. ES Hutter's grave-site), on GRACE ST. (SEEN IT!). AND! CSA MAX is ALSO buried in P.C.; (SEEN IT!).

Point is, while interesting, none of this is evenly remotely referenced in the Beale papers, nor is grandpa Risque or his fabulous library. Yet, according to ECS these things must be directly referenced in the Beale paper narration to even be considered. So, by his own demanding requirements this fact sort of cans his own theory right out of the gate unless the same requirements, somehow, don't apply to him.