The Big Rebel Mine

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good evening Matthew: Sorry but I have not been to the General Grant and do not know how far or in what direction it is located with reference to the Big Rebel. Maybe someday someone will come forward as to its location. I believe Jerry Hamrick located it many years ago but never revealed its location. He told me he found it by referencing its location by other claims in the area which located there claims by referencing the General Grant. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

Gregory,

Jerry may have been right in his finding the General Grant Claim, there were lots of mines around it to tie it into.
I've seen the Big Rebel but not the General Grant. The Big Rebel was taken over and mined by a large Eastern Mining company and made some good profits for them.
The Eastern group consolidated several mines with the Big Rebel and I believe Waltz's General Grant claim may have been one of them.

This old map of the Yavapai County Mining Districts from about 1900 shows that group of mines the Eastern group consolidated.
There are two blue dots, the upper one I believe to be the area of the General Grant, the lower one is the Big Rebel area.
You can orient yourself by the Hassayampa River marked on the map as well as the communities of Yarnell, Wagoner and Walnut Grove.

 

[gollum]

Gregory,

Jerry may have been right in his finding the General Grant Claim, there were lots of mines around it to tie it into.
I've seen the Big Rebel but not the General Grant. The Big Rebel was taken over and mined by a large Eastern Mining company and made some good profits for them.
The Eastern group consolidated several mines with the Big Rebel and I believe Waltz's General Grant claim may have been one of them.

This old map of the Yavapai County Mining Districts from about 1900 shows that group of mines the Eastern group consolidated.
There are two blue dots, the upper one I believe to be the area of the General Grant, the lower one is the Big Rebel area.
You can orient yourself by the Hassayampa River marked on the map as well as the communities of Yarnell, Wagoner and Walnut Grove.
@
View attachment 1483137

Hey Matthew,

Thanks for the post. Could you email me that map? Either that, or just let me know where to find it. I am in Yavapai County, and can run down anything local you need. Just let me know.

Mike

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hi gollum,

I didn't know you had moved out of the LA area. I'm still here in Huntington Beach, same place on 9th street just a couple blocks from the Ocean. Trying to retire but every time I make plans they dangle another incentive in front of me, now I'm on contract through the fall of 2018.

The Mining map is great not only for the mine placements but it shows in detail the existing roads, creeks and communities in the 1895 time frame.

It's a huge map, if I posted it all as one map you wouldn't be able to read anything on it. I have it broken down into 15 separate sections that are large and easily read.

I’m posting the map heading and the map section around Mayer which includes Dewey-Humbolt.

I’ll email you all the sections and try to post them on the Forum here also if anyone else might be interested.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

All three of Jacob Waltz Mining Claims:



Gross Lode Mining Claim
263
Notice is hereby given that the following gents, viz “Wm Gross, Antone Fisher, Jacob Waltz, J.B.Black, G Brooke claim five claims by preemption, one by Discovery on the Gross Lode, two of which are situated in a north easterly direction from the Notice placed in a pile of rocks, three claims in a south westerly direction and a discovery claim also in a south westerly direction from said Notice also one hundred feet on each side of said Lode with all minerals contained within.

Sept 21st 1863 JV Wheelhouse Recorder





Big Rebel Lode

Notice Sep. 14, 1864 We the undersigned claim three claims of one hundred yards each on this the Big Rebel lode with all dis, spins and angles and fifty yards each side of the lode with all minerals contained therein running one hundred and fifty yards each way from this Notice in a north easterly and south westerly direction.

Joseph Smith, Peter Backens, Jacob Wals

File for record January c. 1865 William Dennison Recorder
By Fred Henry Deputy





General Grant Lode

Notice Dec 27, 1865 I the undersigned claim one hundred yards on this the General Grant Lode commencing at the northeast boundary of J.A. Lane claim and running easterly one hundred yards with all dips, spins and angles also fifty yards each side of the Lode with all mineral contained therein being claim No.2 from discovery.

Jacob Waltz

 

[azdave35]

All three of Jacob Waltz Mining Claims:

View attachment 1484448

Gross Lode Mining Claim
263
Notice is hereby given that the following gents, viz “Wm Gross, Antone Fisher, Jacob Waltz, J.B.Black, G Brooke claim five claims by preemption, one by Discovery on the Gross Lode, two of which are situated in a north easterly direction from the Notice placed in a pile of rocks, three claims in a south westerly direction and a discovery claim also in a south westerly direction from said Notice also one hundred feet on each side of said Lode with all minerals contained within.

Sept 21st 1863 JV Wheelhouse Recorder



View attachment 1484449

Big Rebel Lode

Notice Sep. 14, 1864 We the undersigned claim three claims of one hundred yards each on this the Big Rebel lode with all dis, spins and angles and fifty yards each side of the lode with all minerals contained therein running one hundred and fifty yards each way from this Notice in a north easterly and south westerly direction.

Joseph Smith, Peter Backens, Jacob Wals

File for record January c. 1865 William Dennison Recorder
By Fred Henry Deputy



View attachment 1484450

General Grant Lode

Notice Dec 27, 1865 I the undersigned claim one hundred yards on this the General Grant Lode commencing at the northeast boundary of J.A. Lane claim and running easterly one hundred yards with all dips, spins and angles also fifty yards each side of the Lode with all mineral contained therein being claim No.2 from discovery.

Jacob Waltz

matthew..i'm impressed ..that cursive writing on old mining claims are a pain to decipher

 

[gollum]

All three of Jacob Waltz Mining Claims:

View attachment 1484448

Gross Lode Mining Claim
263
Notice is hereby given that the following gents, viz “Wm Gross, Antone Fisher, Jacob Waltz, J.B.Black, G Brooke claim five claims by preemption, one by Discovery on the Gross Lode, two of which are situated in a north easterly direction from the Notice placed in a pile of rocks, three claims in a south westerly direction and a discovery claim also in a south westerly direction from said Notice also one hundred feet on each side of said Lode with all minerals contained within.

Sept 21st 1863 JV Wheelhouse Recorder



View attachment 1484449

Big Rebel Lode

Notice Sep. 14, 1864 We the undersigned claim three claims of one hundred yards each on this the Big Rebel lode with all dis, spins and angles and fifty yards each side of the lode with all minerals contained therein running one hundred and fifty yards each way from this Notice in a north easterly and south westerly direction.

Joseph Smith, Peter Backens, Jacob Wals

File for record January c. 1865 William Dennison Recorder
By Fred Henry Deputy



View attachment 1484450

General Grant Lode

Notice Dec 27, 1865 I the undersigned claim one hundred yards on this the General Grant Lode commencing at the northeast boundary of J.A. Lane claim and running easterly one hundred yards with all dips, spins and angles also fifty yards each side of the Lode with all mineral contained therein being claim No.2 from discovery.

Jacob Waltz

Hasn't anybody noticed not only the difference in signatures, but the different spelling of the last names? WALTZ/WALS? Why would Jacob Waltz spell his last name differently on two claims, and use two different signatures? The Big Rebel was claimed by Jacob WALS and the General Grant was claimed by JACOB WALTZ. We don't have Waltz's signature on the Gross Lode Claim for a comparator, but it would seem as though (to me) the Big Rebel was not "OUR" Jacob Waltz.

Mike

 

[Jeep Nomad]

Matthew is correct. The location in the Big Bug district is the Rebel mine. Waltz filed on the Big Rebel near Walnut Grove. I purchased the patented Big Rebel in 2015. The location has a great history with filings by Lambertson, Allen Cullumber and Old Grizzly Callen who's son James filed the patent MS 1156. The vein is about 1 mile long and includes the Red Buck MS 1140 and Gold Coin MS 1141. I've spent many days in the area metal detecting and have yet to find a single flake of gold, but enjoy the views of the Bradshaws.

The location of the General Grant is a mystery, but the orientation listed in the claim filing as Easterly gives me an idea of a potential location.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hasn't anybody noticed not only the difference in signatures, but the different spelling of the last names? WALTZ/WALS? Why would Jacob Waltz spell his last name differently on two claims, and use two different signatures? The Big Rebel was claimed by Jacob WALS and the General Grant was claimed by JACOB WALTZ. We don't have Waltz's signature on the Gross Lode Claim for a comparator, but it would seem as though (to me) the Big Rebel was not "OUR" Jacob Waltz.

Mike

gollum, Mike,

The reason Waltz name appears differently and is spelled different is because Waltz did not write or sign the Courthouse Recording document.

When Waltz located the gold deposit he wrote out a claim Notice and placed it in a pile of rocks near the center of the claim.

He took a copy of that claim Notice with him to Prescott and took it to the Courthouse to be Recorded by the County Recorder.

The County Recorder took Waltz's claim Notice and he himself (the Recorder) wrote the information down in the proper mining district book.

Waltz had no part in writing or signing anything at the Courthouse.

What you see at the courthouse is not Waltz's claim Notice, it is the Recorder's copying of Waltz's notice into the courthouse book.

That's the way every mining district recorded claims. Only the Recorder had the authority to record the claim in the County books. waltz's signature was not needed at the courthouse.

Matthew

 

[Jeep Nomad]

Peter Backens is key in authenticating the association of the Big Rebel with Waltz. Some claim he is Waltz's nephew, but I've never seen evidence. Waltz and Backens are listed next to each other on the May 1864 territorial census taken at Fort Whipple. Backens disappears from history about the time Waltz moves to Phoenix. Some speculate that Waltz killed Backens, but no proof.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Peter Backens is key in authenticating the association of the Big Rebel with Waltz. Some claim he is Waltz's nephew, but I've never seen evidence. Waltz and Backens are listed next to each other on the May 1864 territorial census taken at Fort Whipple. Backens disappears from history about the time Waltz moves to Phoenix. Some speculate that Waltz killed Backens, but no proof.

Jeep Nomad,

That is a great point you make about Peter Backens.

Peter Backens appears on the 1860 California census in the same vicinity of miners and prospectors who later came to Arizona in 1863. (Henry Wickenberg and others who were at LaPaz, Prescott and Wickenberg).

Peter Backens appears on the 1864 Ariz. Terr. census along side Jacob Waltz.

Backen(s) was traced by Steve Creager to Germany, Wurrtemberg the exact same area Waltz is believed to have come from.

Backens appears on the Big Rebel mining claim along with Waltz.

Backens was a little more than half Waltz age, the right age to be a nephew and he may have been Waltz's nephew but there is too little evidence to say for 100% certain.

Backens was in Phoenix in 1868 the same time Waltz arrived there.

Backens just suddenly disappeared from all records after having been in Phoenix.

When Steve Creager passed away he was researching a possible sister of Jacob Waltz who lived in Missouri/Kansas. Her name was Backen.

Too little to make a positive statement, but if the rumors and stories of Waltz having a nephew were true, it was Peter Backen(s).

Matthew

 

[coazon de oro]

gollum, Mike,

The reason Waltz name appears differently and is spelled different is because Waltz did not write or sign the Courthouse Recording document.

When Waltz located the gold deposit he wrote out a claim Notice and placed it in a pile of rocks near the center of the claim.

He took a copy of that claim Notice with him to Prescott and took it to the Courthouse to be Recorded by the County Recorder.

The County Recorder took Waltz's claim Notice and he himself (the Recorder) wrote the information down in the proper mining district book.

Waltz had no part in writing or signing anything at the Courthouse.

What you see at the courthouse is not Waltz's claim Notice, it is the Recorder's copying of Waltz's notice into the courthouse book.

That's the way every mining district recorded claims. Only the Recorder had the authority to record the claim in the County books. waltz's signature was not needed at the courthouse.

Matthew

So true, I have found the same when researching old land grants here in Texas. When land changed ownership you would find all signatures matches the recorders.

Homar

 

[Jeep Nomad]

I found the Waltz family record in Germany. Next to Jacob's entry was a note that he left for America in 1839, which matches Helen Corbin's 1839 ship manifest that shows he arrived in New Orleans with Jacob Weiss. He had 9 brothers and sisters. All the other sisters died before he left Germany, but there was one sister born in 1820 that there is no entry for date of death. I'll upload the image of the Waltz family record tomorrow when I convert it to photo. Trying to read the old German handwriting is a challenge. There is a note by her name in the same column where Jacob's America departure is noted, but I can't read it.

Do you believe the treasurers warrant to Lawrence Kansas for $7k is real?



Only living sister is Christiana Elisabetha Waltz born Jan 29, 1820. Helen Corbin asserts that the sister's married name is Schmidt, but provides no evidence. I found a P. Backens who departed from Horb Germany and arrived in New York in 1862.

 

[gollum]

Jeep Nomad,

I would be careful using the SS Olbers Manifest as any kind of reference. We craphammered that several years ago as a forgery. For more information, go to Ron Feldman's Old LDM Forum (lost dutchman gold mine dot com), then, under "LDM Discussions" find "Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest". I personally sent a copy of the manifest to the ISTG (International Ship Transcribers Guild). I was told they did not make it. The only other way to get a copy would have been through the Port of New Orleans.....buuuuuuut........very conveniently, there had been a fire that destroyed those records many years before. So, if a fire had destroyed the records.........and the ISTG didn't make the manifest, how did it come about? We found that several blocks of names, jobs, cities or origin had been very cleverly cut and pasted into the Olbers Manifest.

I believe we finally guessed the Jacob Waltz on the SS Lyon that docked in New York was likely our Jacob Waltz.

Mike

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Jeep Nomad,

It is without question that Jacob Waltz the Dutchman did arrive in America in 1839. We know that from his statement on his November 1848 citizenship application at Natchez Mississippi. On that application Waltz stated he was born in Wurttemberg Germany 1810 arrived in America in 1839 when he was 29 years old. Waltz also stated he had been in the state of Mississippi for one year having arrived there in November 1847.

Of the 17 known Jacob Waltz's who immigrated to America in 1839, six of them are possibly be the Dutchman.

The Jacob Waltz who arrived on the Ship Lyon from France to America in 1839 is a very good fit (and was my best guess) but following that Waltz to his end it could not have been the Dutchman.

In conversation with someone who is an expert on German immigration I was told Waltz probably never came to America as "Jacob" Waltz, rather as "Johann" Waltz.
Johann being a common christian or saint name given many Germans of the 1810 time frame and if Waltz carried baptism or other birth papers with him it may well have listed him as Johann Jacob Waltz.

I don't know how Peter Backens might be exactly related to Waltz, he could have been a nephew, cousin or even an in-lawed nephew or cousin but I have a strong suspicion he was somehow related.

Matthew

 

[gollum]

Jeep Nomad,

It is without question that Jacob Waltz the Dutchman did arrive in America in 1839. We know that from his statement on his November 1848 citizenship application at Natchez Mississippi. On that application Waltz stated he was born in Wurttemberg Germany 1810 arrived in America in 1839 when he was 29 years old. Waltz also stated he had been in the state of Mississippi for one year having arrived there in November 1847.

Of the 17 known Jacob Waltz's who immigrated to America in 1839, six of them are possibly be the Dutchman.

The Jacob Waltz who arrived on the Ship Lyon from France to America in 1839 is a very good fit (and was my best guess) but following that Waltz to his end it could not have been the Dutchman.

In conversation with someone who is an expert on German immigration I was told Waltz probably never came to America as "Jacob" Waltz, rather as "Johann" Waltz.
Johann being a common christian or saint name given many Germans of the 1810 time frame and if Waltz carried baptism or other birth papers with him it may well have listed him as Johann Jacob Waltz.

I don't know how Peter Backens might be exactly related to Waltz, he could have been a nephew, cousin or even an in-lawed nephew or cousin but I have a strong suspicion he was somehow related.

Matthew

Hey Matthew,

I believe you are correct about the Lyon Waltz. Didn't that one wind up in South Carolina? Its been a few years since we went into that one.

Mike

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hey Matthew,

I believe you are correct about the Lyon Waltz. Didn't that one wind up in South Carolina? Its been a few years since we went into that one.

Mike

gollum Mike,

It was Jerry Hamrick who found Jacob Waltz on the Ship Lyon documents, LaHarve, France to New York City year 1839.

Jerry was excited about the find but from the very start had a reservation, so many things looked right about that Waltz but one thing bothered him.

I talked with Jerry one time and he told me, "you know, I don't think that was the right Waltz after all." He said he believed he had found this man died in either the 1870's or 1880's.
Later he told me he knew the man had died too early and in an eastern state.

Matthew

 

[gollum]

gollum Mike,

It was Jerry Hamrick who found Jacob Waltz on the Ship Lyon documents, LaHarve, France to New York City year 1839.

Jerry was excited about the find but from the very start had a reservation, so many things looked right about that Waltz but one thing bothered him.

I talked with Jerry one time and he told me, "you know, I don't think that was the right Waltz after all." He said he believed he had found this man died in either the 1870's or 1880's.
Later he told me he knew the man had died too early and in an eastern state.

Matthew

I believe that Eastern state was South Carolina. I don't recall all the specifics, it was several years ago. I also recall finding three or four J. or Jacob Waltzes at ISTG.org. I think I even found a J. Weiser, but wasn't on the same ship as Waltz.

Mike

 

[musician]

The unreadable word could be "nach Wildeck 18xx", which means "to Wildeck", a german town near Kassel, some distance away from Vohenlohe. But the word is badly written. There is a german article about this Waltz, published in 2004 in "Südwestdeutsche Blätter für Familien-und Wappenkunde", a journal about ancestry research, december 2004. I don't have it, so the content is based on what someone told me. They followed the Lyon-Waltz to California 1852, based on written documents about dividing the heritage of his parents. The author gives detailed sources to these records in archives, he claimed to have controlled the books in Oberschwandorf/Nagold too and didn't find our Waltz there. The sister married a man named Preiss at Wildeck.

This would not exclude that she has another name some years later. Life was sometimes short and people married again.
Did someone documented the life of this California-Waltz in the following years to exclude him?

 

[cactusjumper]

Jeep Nomad,

I would be careful using the SS Olbers Manifest as any kind of reference. We craphammered that several years ago as a forgery. For more information, go to Ron Feldman's Old LDM Forum (lost dutchman gold mine dot com), then, under "LDM Discussions" find "Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest". I personally sent a copy of the manifest to the ISTG (International Ship Transcribers Guild). I was told they did not make it. The only other way to get a copy would have been through the Port of New Orleans.....buuuuuuut........very conveniently, there had been a fire that destroyed those records many years before. So, if a fire had destroyed the records.........and the ISTG didn't make the manifest, how did it come about? We found that several blocks of names, jobs, cities or origin had been very cleverly cut and pasted into the Olbers Manifest.

I believe we finally guessed the Jacob Waltz on the SS Lyon that docked in New York was likely our Jacob Waltz.

Mike

Mike,

There were a number of folks who did some serious research into that "document". That, along with a number of other manufactured pieces of "evidence" in Helen's book were judged to be fake by most of us. Helen accepted it all at face value, and trusted her source. She was in failing health at that time and under some pressure from her publisher to get the book to the printer.

I have a book, "Waltz family history and genealogical record" which lists 9 Jacob Waltz's, 1 Jake and a number (5) with initials only with the first being J. I came to the conclusion that Waltz is not an uncommon surname. There are 3,000+ names in the book and it was published in1884. My copy of the book was mailed from Delphi, India.

Question everything!

Take care,

Joe