The Book Club

[Hal Croves]

I am going to review the forward one line at a time, posting where I find inaccuracies and omissions, intentional or not. Hopefully you will consider visiting or revisiting TS Glover's forward, only this time, think about the following notes and ask why the confused need to discredit Higham with assumptions.

My own assumptions may be wrong, but TS Glover's regarding Higham and Higham's intentions are absolutely wrong. I hope that this thread finds its way to TS Glover before the reprinting of this work. The forward must be revised.

I don't expect a return on my purchase or the cost of shipping express, but an explanation is in order. And if not an explanation, a retraction and an apology to Higham and his surviving family.

Your thinking that I must be a dick to write this. It may be true to some degree but that will not change the following.

Sentence:

1.N/A

2.N/A

3. "Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts were the only two persons with Jacob Waltz when Waltz died."


First please read the forward, here for free:

The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz: The Holmes manuscript - Google Books

 

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Cry Of The Eagle: History And Legends Of The Cherokee Indians And Their Buried Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[Loke]

Hal,
Could you please make the link somewhat more explicit?

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,
Could you please make the link somewhat more explicit?

The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz: The Holmes manuscript - Google Books


Loke,
Sorry, that link was right to the forward page.
That may be a no-no with google books.
I tested the link above. It works.
You will see the cover and have to scroll or arrow to the forward.
Easy and free.

 

[Hal Croves]

If your reading this and intend to follow, please read the following quotes and if you have the energy, find and study the original materials.

If you need a link or help, ask. I am going to try and do this with some care but it will unfold as it will. I am going to expand and compare each sentence from TS Glover's forward, to each of the following quotes (more to come) and you can draw your own conclusions. Hopefully, you will find something closer to the truth.

"Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts were the only two persons with Jacob Waltz when Waltz died."
​

TS Glover
​

The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz. Part Two: The Holmes Manuscript.
2000


----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------

​

Here I need to insert that this is TS Glover conclusion based on the manuscript and in fairness, he can not be faulted for simply believing the manuscript and coming to this conclusion. But I believe that TS Glovers initial instincts were correct:

"At first inspection, the matter appeared a simple open and shut case: The Manuscript was a fake. Why? Because the man who deposited it at the Arizona State Library, Charles F. Higham, denounced it and the man who reportedly wrote it, George Brownie Holmes, disowned it."

TS Glover

​

TS Glover changed his belief about the manuscript because of what he had learned while researching the DLM.


"While other versions of the story seemed to collapse when subjected to scrutiny, The Holmes Manuscript slowly gained credibility."

TS Glover
​

My question to the author would be and is... did you lose confidence in Higham because of what you read in later versions of his book which, according to Higham, Barney Barnard molested while under the control of unscrupulous Mormons.
PLEASE! These are not my words. These words are a summary of Higham 1956 work.

I am not sure why Higham had such contempt for the Mormon mythology and I am not interested in guessing why, so lets leave the uneasy talk of Mormons and the Dutchman here.

----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------


​

"Walz’ negro nurse who had cared for the German prospector, during an attack of pneumonia in the winter of 1891-92, realized he was about to die and ran from the house to a doctor’s office. On the way she met Mr. Holmes and asked him to go to Walz. Before she returned, the story continues, Walz conscience-stricken, confessed to killing his nephew partner, two soldiers and three Mexicans, and attempted to describe the location of the fabulously rich mine."

George Brownie Holmes
Phoenix Gazette
18 July, 1931

​

"He sent the half breed woman for the doctor, and she encountered Dick Holmes. "Mistuh Ho'mes, will you go ovah to our house?" she pleaded. "Ole Dutchman, he bout to die." Holmes went over and sat by the Dutchman's bed."

Oren Arnold
Superstition's Gold
1934​

"Those present at his death were; Julia Thomas, Rhinehardt Petrasch, J.W. Carr, Albert Schaffer and another man thought to be J.W. Ryder a cabinet maker. Dick Holmes and a man called Roberts were not there, nor was one Rodriquez."

Higham
True West
1956
Unpublished Manuscript
​

 

[Springfield]

... according to Higham, Barney Barnard molested while under the control of unscrupulous Mormons ... I am not sure why Higham had such contempt for the Mormon mythology and I am not interested in guessing why, so lets leave the uneasy talk of Mormons and the Dutchman here...

OT: the lds involvement in this legend - and also the Lost Adams - might yield interesting results for your later investigations. it's probably not low-hanging fruit.

 

[Hal Croves]

This is a difficult thing to understand much less to write about. I guess that I need to expand on the core idea and the point that I am trying to make here. But that is like jumping to the end, without a body of evidence to back me up.

TS Glover wrote "Two things struck me as very curious about the whole Higham matter and The Manuscript."

Right here, TS Glover tells us that two "things", statements actually, by both Higham and Brownie, lead him to suspect Higham as being the true author of the manuscript.

The first being that Higham submitted the manuscript with "two of his own works for preservation?" yet believed the "manuscript worthless". The second being Brownie's denial in writing The Manuscript. Actually did he deny writing it or ever seeing the finished work? That is not clear.

Highmam submitted the manuscript along with his work to provide an example of what was being done by greedy novelist writing about the DLM. Higham's own 1956 work was, at least in his own mind, closer to the truth and obviously his "counter" to The Holmes Manuscript. Higham knew who wrote the Holmes Manuscript, and he wanted history to know it as well. Higham must have thought of the vault, the place where the Holmes Manuscript sat for 40(?) something years, as a time capsule.

I believe that Higham and his research (which I admit is sometimes lacking) were intentionally marginalized by a part of the DLM community that, for whatever reason, perceived him as a threat. There is an innocent pattern of this same behavior that has spilled over into today's DLM community who, generally, perceive Higham as "unreliable".

I am hoping that you will see that just the opposite is true. TS Glover may have innocently misunderstood the statements made by Brownie and Higham, and no one would blame him for that, but his work lead him to assume things that he simply should not have.

AND, TS Glover makes an unwarranted and concerted effort to discredit Higham in the forward, which as I said is the backbone of his work. There was never a need to do so. The Manuscript should have been published with factual footnotes to reinforce the story, not unfounded suspicions or personal attacks.

Proof must stand on it's own... sometimes with expanded footnotes.

If a thinking person were to read the 1964 edition of Higham's work, the one that was molested by Barney (I am guessing at his own hand), that person would quickly dismiss it for garbled nonsense.

Remember, Higham denounced the manuscript as "worthless at best and possibly a fake." These are TS Glover's words from his forward.

And what can be said of Brownies denial? According to Kollenborn & Swanson, "When "Brownie" Holmes examined the manuscript, he stated that he had never seen it before". I guess that might be true, that he had never seen that exact copy of the manuscript, but that is his story on the pages of the manuscript, written and embellished by someone who interviewed Brownie in 1931.

If you are paying attention you will have deduce like I have that the anonymous author who interviewed Brownie Holmes only a few months after the death of his father Dick Holmes, is…. the same man who wrote the Holmes Manuscript.

Oren Arold.

Now TS Glover either never made this connection or intentionally chose to ignore the obvious. That will need to be explained.

Now would be a good time to read the last few posts on my thread about the Dons, where I am looking at Oren Arnold and his roll in all this.

 

[Hal Croves]

Now from Higham back to the beginning or earliest account of the DLM. Note where the change in story occurs and who is responsible for that change and who perpetuated it.
And it might be premature to blame George Holmes.
Brownie quite possibly told the story as he understood it and recalled it as it was told to him by his father, Dick Holmes. However Dick Holmes, well Dick is obviously someone who deserves a closer look.




"Those present at his death were; Julia Thomas, Rhinehardt Petrasch, J.W. Carr, Albert Schaffer and another man thought to be J.W. Ryder a cabinet maker. Dick Holmes and a man called Roberts were not there, nor was one Rodriquez."

Higham
True West
1956
Unpublished Manuscript
​

"He sent the half breed woman for the doctor, and she encountered Dick Holmes. "Mistuh Ho'mes, will you go ovah to our house?" she pleaded. "Ole Dutchman, he bout to die." Holmes went over and sat by the Dutchman's bed."

Oren Arnold
Superstition's Gold
1934
​

"In all the talks I had with Mrs. Thomas and Herman Petrie, no mention was ever made of anybody by the name of Holmes and according to their story, (which I personally verified), these two were with Jacobs at the time of his death. The “Negro Nurse” of which he speaks was a Creole, native of Louisiana."

James K. McCarthy
THE ARIZONA DAILY STAR
TUCSON, ARIZONA, WEDNESDAY MORNING - JULY 22, 1931, Page 5
VOICE of the PEOPLE
Letters to the Editor
​

"Walz’ negro nurse who had cared for the German prospector, during an attack of pneumonia in the winter of 1891-92, realized he was about to die and ran from the house to a doctor’s office. On the way she met Mr. Holmes and asked him to go to Walz. Before she returned, the story continues, Walz conscience-stricken, confessed to killing his nephew partner, two soldiers and three Mexicans, and attempted to describe the location of the fabulously rich mine."

George Brownie Holmes
Phoenix Gazette
18 July, 1931

​

"Later something prompted him to make an effort to tell Reiney explicitly how to go to the mine and how to find the cache from there. More than once Helena heard Waltz say to the boy almost angrily, "Your not listening, You've got to pay attention. That mine is hard to find."

Bark Notes
1928/38?
​

"While on his death bed, or shortly before, he sent for Bob Upton and offered to show him the place, which he described as almost impossible to find... ...The old fellow died, however, without being able to go again to the mine. He tried to tell Mrs. Thomas, and she has hunted in vein."

Lost (?) Mines
Arizona Weekly Citizen
February 29, 1896
​

"During his declining years a sympathetic Ruth ministered to the tottering Jacob, an in 90 he quite this earth. To this woman…. ….He also divulged the secret of the mine, which she tolled as follows:"

MYTHICAL MINE
Arizon Weekly Citizen
November 24, 1894
​

 

[Hal Croves]

I think that there are a few you who know this history and the people that I am trying to writing about. It would be expected for you to right now be thinking that I miss it. That is, my belief that Oren Arnold wrote The Manuscript. That there is a more obvious and logical candidate who spent time with Brownie, and listened to his stories by a Superstition campfire.

That would be Harvey Mott. For those of you who don't know it, Harvey was a staff writer for the Arizona Republic and traveled with the team that found Adolph Ruth's skull. Actually, I think that a dog named Music found the skull. Harvey wrote and reported on the expedition while E.D. Newcomer, a staff photographer for the Phoenix Gazette documented their discoveries. Odd Halseth was along, but was preoccupied, thinking about the small pile of stones on his living room floor.

George "Brownie" Holmes and Richie Lewis both acted as competent guides.

Alright, I am now going to show why Harvey Mott is NOT the author of The Manuscript but to do so, I first need to show the slight of hand, or "trick" that was use to throw suspicion onto Mott and off of Arnold, who was pretending to be Brownie. It is clever, and intentional, but I think that it was done with a light heart. Remember how Arnold felt about humor. AS IMPORTANT AS MORALS. I honestly do not know anything about their friendship if one even existed.

Look at page two of STORY OF THE LOST DUTCHMAN By George Brownie Holmes

"Harvey Mott made very few notes on anything except scientific nature but in his article spell Jacob's name as Walz, instead of Wolz, showing that the Arizona Republic articles were a background for what later written Walz, and his mine."

That is it.
Right here, The Manuscript's author is intentionally establishing a connection between Mott and Brownie. It doesn't matter much because historically, the name "Waltz" predates Brownie's "Walz", Arnold's "Wolz", and Higham's "Walzer"... or was it "von Walzer"? edited.

It is a deflection.
And it is simply not true. Look at the earliest newspaper articles.

Mott was not the source of the Walz, Waltz, or Walzer spelling.
Brownies interview spelled it Walz.

Now go to Gary Cundiff's transcriptions of Motts articles for the AZ Republic, reporting on a trip he had just made with Brownie.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...izona Republic - Archeological Expedition.pdf

Count how often Harvey Mott uses the spelling "Walz, instead of Wolz."
Remember, we are told he does.

Did you see it?
Mott spells it WALTZ.
Arnold was having a piss here with Mott on the receiving end.
Anyway that is what I believe.

Now go back and count how often Waltz is spelled Wolz in The Manuscript.

The Manuscript was not written by Harvey Mott. If Mott wrote it, logically he would have use "Waltz", as he is know to have used it or, even "Walz" as Brownie, I assume, believed it. In Brownies defense, those early newspaper clippings were not available with a simple "click".

I, I ,I believe that The Manuscript was written by Oren Arnold and if I am correct, that changes everything for those using The Manuscript as an aide to finding the DLM. I am not saying to discard it, but handle it with some care.

Oren Arnold wrote The Manuscript base on the notes he had made while interviewing Brownie. Brownie it seems, is now vindicated in that he never saw The Manuscript or that he "wrote" it. Brownie only knew of the publish interview, not that Arnold was working on an expanded and embellished version of their interview. Brownie contributed, but I don't believe that he lied. edited

Someone more skilled in distinguishing writing styles might come to the same conclusion.

 

[sgtfda]

You would have made a good detective Hal. It interesting watching your train of thought develop on this subject.

 

[roadrunner]

Thats what I have always thought about the numerous books.
Did any of the authors do any searching or establishing facts.
Look how many discussions are here on tnet on just the spelling of his name.
And the records in county and or state or other entries show Waltz.
I think most of the books written are all fiction.
Just camp fire stories along with the clues.
Waltz must have been telling clues to people for 20 years.

 

[Hal Croves]

You would have made a good detective Hal. It interesting watching your train of thought develop on this subject.

Thank you sgtda. But we all know that trains, like ships sometimes wreck.
BTW, there is one due to arrive in Phoenix on the 29th, at 9:00 in the morning.

 

[Hal Croves]

Thats what I have always thought about the numerous books.
Did any of the authors do any searching or establishing facts.
Look how many discussions are here on tnet on just the spelling of his name.
And the records in county and or state or other entries show Waltz.
I think most of the books written are all fiction.
Just camp fire stories along with the clues.
Waltz must have been telling clues to people for 20 years.

If you are serious about finding "treasure" things like gold, abandon mines, caches, most of these books are not very helpful. You would be better served by spending your time in the library, analog or digital, reading and rereading original documents and forming your own beliefs. But, if you are capable of distinguishing fact from tall tale, and want to be able to intelligently write about the spectrum of books on the topic, than I would suggest reading everything, including TS Glover's work.

Someone recently told me that Hemingway retyped the work of other authors, just to better understand the work and I guess, the authors.
Same thing here.

You get it. Telling tales to generate revenue. Nothing conspiratorial about that. It is American entrepreneurship at work and I am all for it. I am not here trying to put an end to the line of books, I simply want to know why Higham was intentionally marginalized. Once that answer comes, I will let things be.

 

[Hal Croves]

Ellie B,
Paul, I believe was a Charter member of Mill Valley Aerie. That needs to be confirmed but I think that he flew with Eagles, not the band.
I am still looking..

Perhaps someone here knows the story behind this.

View attachment 926375

I am also wondering if Richard J. Holmes, Richard A. Holmes, and William A. "Hunkydory" Holmes are in some way related?

 

[Cubfan64]

Thats what I have always thought about the numerous books.
Did any of the authors do any searching or establishing facts.
Look how many discussions are here on tnet on just the spelling of his name.
And the records in county and or state or other entries show Waltz.
I think most of the books written are all fiction.
Just camp fire stories along with the clues.
Waltz must have been telling clues to people for 20 years.

If I was a betting man, I'd guess that 90%+ of the clues were made up by people other than Waltz. He may have had a hand in starting the stories, but I suspect it's far less than what most believe. But - just my opinion.

 

[Hal Croves]

If I was a betting man, I'd guess that 90%+ of the clues were made up by people other than Waltz. He may have had a hand in starting the stories, but I suspect it's far less than what most believe. But - just my opinion.

The flip side of that bet… the clues to the DLM, the ones we write about and sometimes chase after are a composite of clues from several different lost mines.
Understanding that, one can go through the long process of elimination to reduce the clues to a handful.
But it would take a very disturbed mind to accomplish such a task.

A hand full of useful clues, a possible rendering of the view of Weaver Needle from above the Waltz Walzer's cave.
What more could one expect from a treasure hunt.

Dick & Brownie's searched for an insanely long time.
They never found the mine, yet Dick was there, a loyal friend to Waltz Waltzer, and heard the old man's confession and listened to the directions to a fortune he could never find.
Remember, Dick & Brownie were skilled outdoors-men. Armed with directions, they should have found it… if it is even there… in the Superstitions.

Great lead into the next thing I want to write about.
The name(s) of this legend.

It gets even more confusing, however if you keep reading and proofing what you are reading, it eventually does come together.

 

[markmar]

Hal

Is easy to reduce the clues to a handful if you know where is the LDM . The Julia Thomas map , the Dick Holmes map , the Waltz's sketch and the Perfil map show the same place . Is very uncommon to be just a coincidence .
You have found the view of Perfil map . You are very close . Just follow the map . The mine is at SIERRA MAS ALTA , EN MEDIO DE CIMAS .

 

[coazon de oro]

Hal

Is easy to reduce the clues to a handful if you know where is the LDM . The Julia Thomas map , the Dick Holmes map , the Waltz's sketch and the Perfil map show the same place . Is very uncommon to be just a coincidence .
You have found the view of Perfil map . You are very close . Just follow the map . The mine is at SIERRA MAS ALTA , EN MEDIO DE CIMAS .

Howdy Marius,

In my honest opinion, on the Perfil Mapa, the Sierra Mas Alta is Four Peaks Mountain. It is the highest Sierra in the area, and can be seen in the middle of the picture. One is looking from the south, with Weaver's Needle just in front to the left.

Howdy Paul,

Waltz left a lot of clues over time, some just got a little twisted by others. Of the 100 clues list, it is my honest opinion that 25% fit the area.

Howdy Hal,

A disturbed mind does seem to fit, I've been accused of being pretty smart by Oro, at least he was half right. I have always pointed out that Dutch Hunters have been mixing clues from the real pit mine (which in my opinion still remains covered) with the LDM.

Homar

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal

Is easy to reduce the clues to a handful if you know where is the LDM . The Julia Thomas map , the Dick Holmes map , the Waltz's sketch and the Perfil map show the same place . Is very uncommon to be just a coincidence .
You have found the view of Perfil map . You are very close . Just follow the map . The mine is at SIERRA MAS ALTA , EN MEDIO DE CIMAS .

I would like to know that I was able to find something so illusive, but that would be more of a personal challenge and less of a... "I'm a rich!" moment. I would not be, rich, legally, and after the initial excitement wore off, you would slump into a deep depression. Tagging a Bigfoot, or netting a chupacabra would have to be next. Scoff if you will, but I have seen one, a Bigfoot that is, and I was not alone. If I am not considered to be a credible witness, the others, there that afternoon are.

Anyway, it is not a gold mine that I am after, so I guess that if I found Waltz's hole (), which may have been Peralta's hole (), and at one time the kings hole(), after it was Thunder Gods hole (), I would re-hide the cleverly constructed spile and this time leave behind better clues.

You seem to know the location. Why not just get it over with and spill the beans if you do know the spot?
Make it public and let it be done.

 

[Hal Croves]

Howdy Hal,

A disturbed mind does seem to fit, I've been accused of being pretty smart by Oro, at least he was half right. I have always pointed out that Dutch Hunters have been mixing clues from the real pit mine (which in my opinion still remains covered) with the LDM.

Homar

coazon de oro,
Pretty is subjective. As in "Hal's wife is pretty damn ugly, wouldn't ya say?" There is no question that she is ugly, but how much so depends on one's definition of the word. In my opinion "pretty" is somewhat over the top. But there are degrees of ugly.

I think that it boils down to the Dr. Thorn(e) mine. Was it the same as the one Waltz Walzer mined or, just another one of many stretching from the Four Peaks south, past the Salt River and through the SWA?

I don't know, but somewhere in one of the many twisting canyons of the SWA, in a cave that is well hidden, there may be a small fortune in gold ore, which, legally, one may retrieve.
It might be Waltz's cache, or a Peralta cache, or even a Jesuit cache, who knows. Who cares.
Just carry it out... but, not in your pockets.




Yes, Jesuits.

View attachment 927323 View attachment 927324

 

[markmar]

Homar

The Perfil map must to be reversed . The arrow in the map has this meaning . And if you don't know the meanings of the marks , in the map below the arrow is written : N to S and E to W .