The Brownie Holmes Manuscript

[cactusjumper]

I think the problem here is.....you guys drink too much dadgummed coffee!

textea,

I must admit, I did have way too much coffee this morning.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[azdave35]

I think the problem here is.....you guys drink too much dadgummed coffee!

i'm thinking cabin fever....they need to get off their rumps and get out in the hills

 

[cactusjumper]

i'm thinking cabin fever....they need to get off their rumps and get out in the hills

Dave,

Ya trying to kill me?



Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

This thread about the Brownie Holmes Manuscript is in answer to a question cactusjumper asked on a separate thread.

The Holmes manuscript has been the focus of many spirited discussions, disagreements and misconceptions over the years since it first surfaced in the early 1960’s. Allegedly written by George “Brownie” Holmes, Holmes denied being the actual author but did admit that he furnished a lot of the information that the manuscript contained.

The Holmes manuscript is 41 typed pages, a Forward, 12 chapters, and a 9 page Dutchman story addition entitled, The True Story Of The Lost Dutchman Of The Superstitions As Told To Me By My Father Dick Holmes, By Jacob Wolz On His Deathbed.
It is clear to anyone reading the manuscript that the 9 page Dutchman story addition was written in a much different style than the rest of the manuscript which deals mostly with Brownie’s life and stories of his experience with his father and other lost mine hunters. This 9 page Dutchman story addition is oddly sandwiched in between chapters 2 and 3 almost as if it were inserted after the rest of the manuscript had been finished.

Brownie was not a writer, author or typist so in 1944 he employed someone who was to help him put together a story of his life and his account of the Lost Dutchman Mine as told to his father by Jacob “Wolz”. That man was Charles Kennison a former Phoenix newspaper man and author of several articles.

Between Brownie and Kennison no fewer than 4 separate versions of the manuscript were compiled. Brownie liked none of them and their disagreements eventually ended the project.

According to John Higham, in the fall of 1948 Charles Kennison delivered to John Lindley Higham a copy of one of the versions of the Holmes manuscript. Higham was a local author also known as Charles Fredrick Higham who had in 1946 written his own Lost Dutchman Mine book entitled, The True Story Of Jacob Waltzer And His Famous Hidden Gold Mine, The Lost Dutchman.
There was a discrepancy between Kennison and Higham of when exactly Higham received the manuscript. Higham says it was 1948, Kennison said it was 1944 the year it was written. This is important because if Kennison is correct it seems Higham wrote his 1946 book based largely on the Holmes manuscript.

Other than Kennison, Brownie and John L. Higham, no one else knew anything of this Holmes manuscript until November 1, 1962 when John L. Higham donated it to the Arizona State Department of Library and Archives. It was soon after “discovered” by the general public and caused quite a sensation. Brownie Holmes was set upon and hounded by an army of lost mine seekers and questioned relentlessly concerning the “Wolz story and deathbed confession.” Finally in desperation Brownie withdrew and denied being the author of the work.

I have always wondered why Higham waited 14-16 years (depending on whose story you believe) to donate the manuscript to the Arizona Library and Archives and make it public? Higham and Kennison knew each other but were not particularly close or considered good friends. Hardly anyone was considered a friend of Highams, he had an extremely abrasive personality. Higham and Brownie Holmes were not friends by any stretch of the imagination. In fact Higham went out of his way to disparage Brownie and Dick Holmes every chance he got.

When Higham donated the manuscript to the Archives he inserted into the manuscript his own personal view of the work which was a scathing review. The amusing thing about Higham’s case against the Holmes manuscript was in trying to disprove Brownie’s “facts” he used “facts” of his own that were so outrageously ridiculous and false it made Brownie’s manuscript look positively scholarly.
Another thing I have always wondered about was the actual manuscript that is in the Archives. I have read that very work and there is something strange about it.

Both Higham and Kennison stated it was Kennison who gave Higham the manuscript. The manuscript Kennison gave Higham is typed with an old style typewriter. Higham added two separate pages of his own to the donation, both pages were typed overviews and his assessment of the manuscripts unworthiness. What I find strange is that all the donated work, Kennison’s and the pages Higham added were all typed on the same typewriter. At least two of the typewriter keys had defects and the same defects are on both Kennison’s copy and Higham’s additions.

Unless Higham used Kennison’s typewriter I don’t understand how this could have occurred. This raises a lot of interesting questions. Did Higham retype what Kennison gave him? That would seem unlikely because Brownies original signature is on the manuscript. And if Higham did retype it, did he type it faithfully or did he change and add his own version to things? After all, there was no love lost between Higham and Holmes. Could this be why Brownie denied the authorship of the manuscript until he died?
It’s interesting to speculate on the many paths this story could have gone down. Fortunately we don’t have to rely on the Holmes — Kennison manuscript for the story of Wolz-Walzer-Waltz and his deathbed confession. Brownie Holmes was taped in interviews by four separate people (David Russell, Monte Edwards, Tom Kollenborn and Greg Davis) between 1975 and 1979 giving specific details about the things the Dutchman told his father on his deathbed.

In addition, Clay Worst, a longtime friend and partner of Brownie Holmes was given a detailed firsthand account by Brownie. Clay uses Brownie’s account to make a “Dutchman” presentation each year to a crowd at the Superstition Mountain Museum in Apache Junction. Clay will give that presentation again on January 7, 2016 for anyone who wants to hear the story the way it was passed down from Jacob Waltz to Dick Holmes to Brownie and finally to Clay.

Personally I believe the Holmes account of Waltz’s deathbed confession. Not every word, word for word but the basic premise of it. I believe it as well as a story can survive given time and being passed down through three or four persons.
I believe the account also because of something Clay Worst told me once. I was staying with Clay at his house for a few days and one evening after dinner we were sitting outside on Clay’s back porch talking and watching the sunset reflecting off Superstition Mountain. Clay told me about Easter Sunday 1980 when Brownie had come out to have Easter dinner with Clay and his wife Muriel. Brownie Holmes was 87 years old and in failing health. After the dinner Clay and Brownie had gone out back on the porch and Brownie began to reminisce about the old days. Pausing as he gazed off at the mountain Brownie turned to Clay in all seriousness and spoke these words, …. “Clay, I don’t know if the Dutchman lied to my father or not, but I know my father never lied to me, and I know I never lied to you.”

Five days later, on Friday April 11, 1980, his 88th birthday, George Brownie Holmes passed into eternity.

Matthew,

The highlighted portion of your post may be why there is some confusion as to your opinion if Brownie denied the authorship of the manuscript to the day he died, or not.

As for this statement: “Clay, I don’t know if the Dutchman lied to my father or not, but I know my father never lied to me, and I know I never lied to you.”, it does beg the question of why Brownie felt the need to make such a statement to his old friend? I have always believed, if Dick Holmes stole the gold from under Waltz's deathbed, that he made up the story he told his son. It would take a special kind of man to admit being a common thief to his son.

By that same token, Brownie would have believed his father completely. No doubt he had heard the stories that his father stole the gold, so he felt it necessary to bolster the story to Clay. All of this does not seem to be out of the realm of possibilities.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

joe..i never asked him where he was searching

Dave,

As I said, Clay's camp was at the north end of Bluff Spring Mountain in Needle Canyon.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Textea, they recently found that Coffee drinkers ( specially sock coffee) tend to live longer and are far more resistant to Alzheimers, soo

 

[gollum]

Matthew,

The highlighted portion of your post may be why there is some confusion as to your opinion if Brownie denied the authorship of the manuscript to the day he died, or not.

As for this statement: “Clay, I don’t know if the Dutchman lied to my father or not, but I know my father never lied to me, and I know I never lied to you.”, it does beg the question of why Brownie felt the need to make such a statement to his old friend? I have always believed, if Dick Holmes stole the gold from under Waltz's deathbed, that he made up the story he told his son. It would take a special kind of man to admit being a common thief to his son.

By that same token, Brownie would have believed his father completely. No doubt he had heard the stories that his father stole the gold, so he felt it necessary to bolster the story to Clay. All of this does not seem to be out of the realm of possibilities.

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,

That certainly may be true. Not one person alive can say with 100% certainty either way. Since whether Waltz gave Dick Holmes his gold or if Holmes stole it, doesn't matter. Each person will take away from every story and statement what they will. I see it a bit differently,

Dick Holmes spent the rest of his life looking for the DLM. His son Brownie spent his life searching for the DLM. Imagine an 87 year old Brownie Holmes (a year before he died), sitting there talking to his longtime friend Clay Worst. Two men that had spent over 100 years combined looking for the DLM. I imagine a conversation that might have gone something like this:

Clay: George, we have both spent the better parts of our lives looking for this thing. Your dad spent his life searching for it. So many people have spent so much time trying to find it. Are we chasing a red herring? Did Waltz really have a mine? Do you think he told your dad the truth about his mine?"

Brownie: "Clay, I don’t know if the Dutchman lied to my father or not, but I know my father never lied to me, and I know I never lied to you.”

I don't think it was specifically about the Candlebox Ore, as much as it was about two old men wondering if they had spent their lives chasing a lie. If it would have just been about the candlebox ore, I think Clay would have asked him about it specifically, and Brownie would have answered him specifically. Also, there would have been no reason for him to say "I don't know if the Dutchman lied to my father..." if they were talking specifically about the candlebox ore. I believe that it was more of a question about the entire search and their lives. I have several recordings of Father Clay giving his Dutchman Sermon. HAHAHA I say that, because every time I play it, I feel like I am in Church, and I am listening to something important being preached. I know there is no new info, and that the talk is basically the same every time. I sort of get that same feeling when talking to any of the people that have devoted a great portion of their lives pursuing this story. I hold most of those "old timers" in a kind of reverence. Don't get me wrong though. Don't mistake admiration and reverence for naivete, weakness, or ignorance. I can tell when someone is trying to pull my strings or push my buttons, and I am a pretty good judge of character (in MOST cases). I have been fooled once or twice in my life.

I would actually like to ask Matthew or Greg to ask Clay when they get a chance about that conversation.

Mike

revision:

I just realized that in 1980, Clay was only in his fifties, and not an "old man" yet. HAHAHA But, he had been chasing the Dutchman for many years at that point.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Watch it mike. Old is what you personally perceive it to be. not a set age --

(I hope )

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,
That certainly may be true. Not one person alive can say with 100% certainty either way. Since whether Waltz gave Dick Holmes his gold or if Holmes stole it, doesn't matter. Each person will take away from every story and statement what they will. I see it a bit differently,
Dick Holmes spent the rest of his life looking for the DLM. His son Brownie spent his life searching for the DLM. Imagine an 87 year old Brownie Holmes (a year before he died), sitting there talking to his longtime friend Clay Worst. Two men that had spent over 100 years combined looking for the DLM. I imagine a conversation that might have gone something like this:
Clay: George, we have both spent the better parts of our lives looking for this thing. Your dad spent his life searching for it. So many people have spent so much time trying to find it. Are we chasing a red herring? Did Waltz really have a mine? Do you think he told your dad the truth about his mine?"
Brownie: "Clay, I don’t know if the Dutchman lied to my father or not, but I know my father never lied to me, and I know I never lied to you.”
I don't think it was specifically about the Candlebox Ore, as much as it was about two old men wondering if they had spent their lives chasing a lie. If it would have just been about the candlebox ore, I think Clay would have asked him about it specifically, and Brownie would have answered him specifically. Also, there would have been no reason for him to say "I don't know if the Dutchman lied to my father..." if they were talking specifically about the candlebox ore. I believe that it was more of a question about the entire search and their lives. I have several recordings of Father Clay giving his Dutchman Sermon. HAHAHA I say that, because every time I play it, I feel like I am in Church, and I am listening to something important being preached. I know there is no new info, and that the talk is basically the same every time. I sort of get that same feeling when talking to any of the people that have devoted a great portion of their lives pursuing this story. I hold most of those "old timers" in a kind of reverence. Don't get me wrong though. Don't mistake admiration and reverence for naivete, weakness, or ignorance. I can tell when someone is trying to pull my strings or push my buttons, and I am a pretty good judge of character (in MOST cases). I have been fooled once or twice in my life.
I would actually like to ask Matthew or Greg to ask Clay when they get a chance about that conversation.
Mike

Mike,

Let's assume that our good friend......Mike, in some way, got a box of ore with a small fortune (for the day) in it. Now you actually snuck into Julia's place while everyone was at Waltz's funeral and.....found the box of ore. You had no idea where the old man got it, but you had heard he had a fantastically rich mine somewhere in the Superstition Mountains.

You surmise (rightly) that the old man confided the location of that mine to the lady who took care of him to the day he died. Would you just be satisfied with your box of goodies, or would you assume Julia would probably never find the mine in that rugged terrain and follow her and Rhiney when they tried to find it?

Remember this, when Julia and Rhiney made their first attempt to enter the range they tried to drive their wagon up Hog Canyon. When Brownie started his systematic search for the mine after failing to locate it for years, he started on the main mountain and worked his way, methodically, northeast searching every canyon he came across.

Now was that following the directions contained in the deathbed confession or even the directions dictated by the story of when Dick Holmes followed Waltz? In point of fact, it was much closer to the Bicknell/Ruth directions.

Just one man's opinion. Everyone else's hold just about as much water as my brain does.......Well, I do have a little more water than most. (See picture I posted)

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Mike,

Let's assume that our good friend......Mike, in some way, got a box of ore with a small fortune (for the day) in it. Now you actually snuck into Julia's place while everyone was at Waltz's funeral and.....found the box of ore. You had no idea the where the old man got it, but you had heard he had a fantastically rich mine somewhere in the Superstition Mountains.

You surmise (rightly) that the old man confided the location of that mine to the lady who took care of him to the day he died. Would you just be satisfied with your box of goodies, or would you assume Julia would probably never find the mine in that rugged terrain and follow her and Rhiney when they tried to find it?

Remember this, when Julia and Rhiney made their first attempt to enter the range they tried to drive their wagon up Hog Canyon. When Brownie started his systematic search for the mine after failing to locate it for years, he started on the main mountain and worked his way, methodically, northeast searching every canyon he came across.

Now was that following the directions contained in the deathbed confession or even the directions dictated by the story of when Dick Holmes followed Waltz? In point of fact, it was much closer to the Bicknell/Ruth directions.

Just one man's opinion. Everyone else's hold just about as much water as my brain does.......Well, I do have a little more water than most. (See picture I posted)

Take care,

Joe

joe...is there any proof that julia and rhiney's first trip was via hog canyon or is it just speculation?

 

[txtea]

I wonder if anyone said anything at the time, about Holmes not being present at Waltz's funeral.
I mean, you would think he would give his last respects, being he was at least an acquaintance of Waltz. Maybe his absence is what started the rumor of him taking the candlebox of ore?

 

[Old]

>>>>joe...is there any proof that julia and rhiney's first trip was via hog canyon or is it just speculation? <<<

Good question Dave,

I'm talking from memory here so I could be wrong.........that's always dangerous. Joe can fill in the accurate info. I just ramble <g>.

I "think" its just assumed its Hog Canyon from the description and not specifically named in any of the various works. I stand to be corrected on that, as I haven't rechecked.

I remember vaguely that Bark tracked the wagon tracks and found Julia and Rhiney camped in the area. I don't think they made it far from there on the first trip.

Just my ramblings but I don't attach much significance to Hog Canyon, per se. It was (to me) just a jumping off point. I set no more store by that than say someone leaving Florida in route to New York takes Interstate 95.

Julia and Rhiney both were greenhorns (so to speak) and wanted to ride by wagon rather than walk or pack in by mule. The Hog Canyon route allowed that access, although even that was rough going. Bark found them in that area and probably raised an eyebrow and whispered "fools" under his breath. That trip was short lived when they found the search was going to be much more difficult than they imagined and a different mode of transportation would be required.

 

[cactusjumper]

joe...is there any proof that julia and rhiney's first trip was via hog canyon or is it just speculation?

Dave,

What Lynda says is true. Hog Canyon is not specifically named. From the Bark Notes we have this:

"As I was riding the range about six miles west of the home ranch in August 1892 or 1893, I met some campers near an old well belonging to the ranch........" Bark identifies the "campers" as Julia and Rhiney. Just the two of them, no others.
That distance puts them in the vicinity of Hog Canyon and there was a line camp in that area, and possibly a well.

That also places them close to the beginning of Bicknell's directions, carried by Adolph Ruth. Those directions, further, likely, came from Julia Thomas, although Bicknell had camped at Willow Spring prior to Waltz's death. That means he was familiar with the area before Julia's Waltz story would have been told.

Like all things Dutchman, there are some questionable parts to the entire story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

I don't know anything about any "serious effort to discredit Tom Kollenborn or yourself on this site", certainly not by myself, but do concede if anyone WOULD know anything about discrediting people on a site it would be you.

Oh and here's a photo of me at San Xavier at Tucson in 1966. Lots of earlier ones but this one was handy and I didn't have to dig out the old photo albums. And yes, I did know Brownie.

View attachment 1236983

As always you are certainly entitled to your OPINIONS and the right to voice them.

Matthew

Matthew,

Great picture of you. Are you sure that was in 1966? That must have been just before you went into the army and shipped out to Vietnam. It must have killed you to cut that pretty, long hair. Being folically challenged myself, I can see how cutting those locks would hurt. I can see where your mom would have saved those cuttings in a bag....for years.

Big change from your early days in Pearl City.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Grandmaw K.

Good to see you looking in on our conversations. Can Aurum be far behind? Maybe you can add something to the Holmes debate.

Joe Ribaudo


Mr. Joe Ribaudo

Why the need to address me in this thread that I have not posted on is beyond my comprehension. There are many people who follow these post without posting (several remain hidden). Would you prefer that I do that..log out and read as a guest? Your need to try to bait me into this conversation seems paranoid to me, but then that is just my opinion. I have nothing to add to the conversation about "The Holmes Manuscript" except that it is an interesting part of the LDM legend. I will only post when I feel I can add something or to ask a question.. I thought that is what these forums were for. Also, I have no idea who the heck Aurum is. So, Kindly do not try to inject me into any disagreement you seem to have with others.

Grandma K

Grandma K,

Thank you for your reply. Most of your post is true.

I have never left the paranoia that I developed in VietNam. The thing is, there actually were people out to get me. I have admitted to paranoia a number of times on these forums. I believe it has saved my life, more than once.

I was inclined to address you because of your silence. In the Apache way, it was not uncommon to speak with silence. Your silence was speaking volumes to me. As long as you are here I will, as you wish, leave you out of the conversation.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Joe,

If I am not mistaken, when Dick Holmes was talking to Waltz, Julia had just run out to get the doctor because he had taken a turn for the worse. Not while everybody was at the funeral. I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember that. Maybe from Thomas' DLM Book. Not a big point, but I see TXTEA asked about it.

Now back to Dick Holmes. I know what the thought of gold can do to a person, but, did Dick Holmes have a reputation as a thief? Was he ever caught or blamed for stealing anything before or after the Waltz Incident? The reason I ask is because you have him breaking into Julia's Store during the funeral. Only two reasons for that:

1. He had a track record of stealing, and saw breaking into Julia's Store as nothing new.

2. or..... He either knew about or heard rumors about Waltz having gold, so he risked everything to break into Julia's Store?

I don't know. While intellectually I have to admit the possibility, I don't see it that way. Also, if he stole the gold from the candlebox, he would have had to have made up the entire story regarding his conversation with Waltz.

Regarding Julia/Rhiney and Hog Canyon. Since you are using The Bark Notes as evidence, you are missing something; you state that Julia and Rhiney's FIRST TIME going in looking for the DLM was through Hog Canyon. Jim Bark writes "As I was riding the range about six miles west of the home ranch in August 1892 or 1893"

That "OR 1893" is very telling to me. Julia and Rhiney made several trips into the Supers. Their first trip was in 1892, but Jim Bark isn't certain what year he saw them. If it were August of 1893, then he may have seen them on their third or fourth trip in. Is there anything else that places them in Hog Canyon for their first trip in 1892?

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

If I am not mistaken, when Dick Holmes was talking to Waltz, Julia had just run out to get the doctor because he had taken a turn for the worse. Not while everybody was at the funeral. I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember that. Maybe from Thomas' DLM Book. Not a big point, but I see TXTEA asked about it.

Now back to Dick Holmes. I know what the thought of gold can do to a person, but, did Dick Holmes have a reputation as a thief? Was he ever caught or blamed for stealing anything before or after the Waltz Incident? The reason I ask is because you have him breaking into Julia's Store during the funeral. Only two reasons for that:

1. He had a track record of stealing, and saw breaking into Julia's Store as nothing new.

2. or..... He either knew about or heard rumors about Waltz having gold, so he risked everything to break into Julia's Store?

I don't know. While intellectually I have to admit the possibility, I don't see it that way. Also, if he stole the gold from the candlebox, he would have had to have made up the entire story regarding his conversation with Waltz.

Regarding Julia/Rhiney and Hog Canyon. Since you are using The Bark Notes as evidence, you are missing something; you state that Julia and Rhiney's FIRST TIME going in looking for the DLM was through Hog Canyon. Jim Bark writes "As I was riding the range about six miles west of the home ranch in August 1892 or 1893"

That "OR 1893" is very telling to me. Julia and Rhiney made several trips into the Supers. Their first trip was in 1892, but Jim Bark isn't certain what year he saw them. If it were August of 1893, then he may have seen them on their third or fourth trip in. Is there anything else that places them in Hog Canyon for their first trip in 1892?

Mike

Mike,

First of all, you have to believe that story.....I don't.

We established, a few years ago, that Waltz most likely died in Julia's home. She was, likely, at his side. If you have ever been in someones presence in the last days of their life, you would realize that no one would put them in a place they were serving the public food.

Matthew presented a lot of evidence about the location of Julia's store, which proved to be in error.

"I don't know. While intellectually I have to admit the possibility, I don't see it that way. Also, if he stole the gold from the candlebox, he would have had to have made up the entire story regarding his conversation with Waltz."

A good deal of the story is false. I don't know who made it up, but I have no doubt it was fiction.

"Regarding Julia/Rhiney and Hog Canyon. Since you are using The Bark Notes as evidence, you are missing something; you state that Julia and Rhiney's FIRST TIME going in looking for the DLM was through Hog Canyon. Jim Bark writes "As I was riding the range about six miles west of the home ranch in August 1892 or 1893"

That "OR 1893" is very telling to me. Julia and Rhiney made several trips into the Supers. Their first trip was in 1892, but Jim Bark isn't certain what year he saw them. If it were August of 1893, then he may have seen them on their third or fourth trip in. Is there anything else that places them in Hog Canyon for their first trip in 1892?"

Well.....You do need to read the entire story from the Bark Notes.

"It was some time before Helena and Rhiney could dispose of the bakery and go look for the mine. Their first trip was the time I mentioned in the first part of this story." It was Rhiney who told Bark about that "first time". Don't think there is a better source, despite Bark being unsure of the year.

I have been researching and telling this same story for more than 40-years so, despite my admitted failing memory, I don't believe I'm "missing" much about it. I have been questioned many times over the years by many knowledgeable Dutch Hunters, like Steve Creager, and have gone over my reasons for this conclusion dozens of times.

You're coming up short on the facts concerning these questions, or someone is feeding you some bogus information.

On that first trip of Julia's to Hog Canyon, were there two people with her, or only Rhiney? You would be surprised at how many knowledgeable people answer that question wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Mike,

First of all, you have to believe that story.....I don't.

We established, a few years ago, that Waltz most likely died in Julia's home. She was, likely, at his side. If you have ever been in someones presence in the last days of their life, you would realize that no one would put them in a place they were serving the public food.

Matthew presented a lot of evidence about the location of Julia's store, which proved to be in error.

"I don't know. While intellectually I have to admit the possibility, I don't see it that way. Also, if he stole the gold from the candlebox, he would have had to have made up the entire story regarding his conversation with Waltz."

A good deal of the story is false. I don't know who made it up, but I have no doubt it was fiction.

"Regarding Julia/Rhiney and Hog Canyon. Since you are using The Bark Notes as evidence, you are missing something; you state that Julia and Rhiney's FIRST TIME going in looking for the DLM was through Hog Canyon. Jim Bark writes "As I was riding the range about six miles west of the home ranch in August 1892 or 1893"

That "OR 1893" is very telling to me. Julia and Rhiney made several trips into the Supers. Their first trip was in 1892, but Jim Bark isn't certain what year he saw them. If it were August of 1893, then he may have seen them on their third or fourth trip in. Is there anything else that places them in Hog Canyon for their first trip in 1892?"

Well.....You do need to read the entire story from the Bark Notes.

"It was some time before Helena and Rhiney could dispose of the bakery and go look for the mine. Their first trip was the time I mentioned in the first part of this story." It was Rhiney who told Bark about that "first time". Don't think their is a better source, despite Bark being unsure of the year.

I have been researching and telling this same story for more than 40-years so, despite my admitted failing memory, I don't believe I'm "missing" much about it. I have been questioned many times over the years by many knowledgeable Dutch Hunters, like Steve Creager, and have gone over my reasons for this conclusion dozens of time.

You're coming up short on the facts concerning these questions, or someone is feeding you some bogus information.

On that first trip of Julia's to Hog Canyon, were there two people with her, or only Rhiney? You would be surprised at how many knowledgeable people answer that question wrong.

Take care,

Joe

my problem with the whole LDM situation is that the people that got the story directly from the dutchman couldn't find the mine....which tells us that either the dutchman lied or julia,rhiney, holmes and roberts misunderstood the dutchman..either way you look at it the directions are useless ...thousands of people have used those same clues for the past 120 years and it has gotten them nowhere ....look at brownie ..he spent his entire life looking...and he was looking in a few different places....that should tell everyone that he had no idea where the mine was

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

One other thing. Your calling the Lost Dutchman Mine, the Dutchman's Lost Mine (DLM), will not change the history of the name. It has always been the LDM, and I believe that name, correct or not, will stick to the story long after you and I are distant memories.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

my problem with the whole LDM situation is that the people that got the story directly from the dutchman couldn't find the mine....which tells us that either the dutchman lied or julia,rhiney, holmes and roberts misunderstood the dutchman..either way you look at it the directions are useless ...thousands of people have used those same clues for the past 120 years and it has gotten them nowhere ....look at brownie ..he spent his entire life looking...and he was looking in a few different places....that should tell everyone that he had no idea where the mine was

Dave,

Who knows what the truth of the matter is. It may be that Waltz left out some important fact, none of them really understood what he was saying, or perhaps there never was a mine. Perhaps there was a mine that someone used as a cache.

As you say, after 120 years of searching, someone should have found it.

Take care,

Joe