The Brownie Holmes Manuscript

[gollum]

Joe,

You're right, but I do it mainly for me, not anyone else. Every day that goes by gives birth to millions of things that will live on long after we have both shuffled off this mortal coil, and every day that passes makes sure that more things will outlive us than we will outlive! HAHAHA THAT is why I believe in reincarnation ............................... and zombies! I'm coming back one way or another!

Mike

 

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[Oroblanco]

Dave,

Who knows what the truth of the matter is. It may be that Waltz left out some important fact, none of them really understood what he was saying, or perhaps there never was a mine. Perhaps there was a mine that someone used as a cache.

As you say, after 120 years of searching, someone should have found it.

Take care,

Joe

Great summations by Joe and Dave - this is the crux of the matter. And perhaps someone DID find it, but did not live long enough to tell? (namely Walt?)

Something is definitely wrong in the directions, clues etc. Figuring out what that is might lead someone to find it.

Please do continue;

 

[azdave35]

Great summations by Joe and Dave - this is the crux of the matter. And perhaps someone DID find it, but did not live long enough to tell? (namely Walt?)

Something is definitely wrong in the directions, clues etc. Figuring out what that is might lead someone to find it.

Please do continue;

has anyone besides corbin and kollenborn ever seen the ore gassler found?

 

[cactusjumper]

has anyone besides corbin and kollenborn ever seen the ore gassler found?

Dave,

I'm not certain that Bob ever saw Gassler's ore. I don't believe anyone else ever came forward with that information.

The ore that Tom saw, was shown to him by the fake son, not Walt Gassler.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

I'm not certain that Bob ever saw Gassler's ore. I don't believe anyone else ever came forward with that information.

The ore that Tom saw, was shown to him by the fake son, not Walt Gassler.

Take care,

Joe

so we dont really know for sure gassler had any ore samples?

 

[cactusjumper]

so we dont really know for sure gassler had any ore samples?

Dave,

I would say that is, likely, true. On the other hand, someone(s) is trying to make a case for the ore that was shown being the real thing. Perhaps someone is writing a book.

If that is so, I can assure you that a great deal of rewriting has been going on over the last few years......as we have been shining a great deal of light on some false stories and phony "history".

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

I would say that is, likely, true. On the other hand, someone(s) is trying to make a case for the ore that was shown being the real thing. Perhaps someone is writing a book.

If that is so, I can assure you that a great deal of rewriting has been going on over the last few years......as we have been shining a great deal of light on some false stories and phony "history".

Take care,

Joe

thats what i thought...i dont remember any pics of the ore

 

[cactusjumper]

thats what i thought...i dont remember any pics of the ore

Dave,

I'm beginning to think many people are not as interested in trying to keep the LDM legends and stories as honest as possible as I am. One might suspect that they have been fabricated from the beginning, and those disinterested people are the only ones that know the real truth.

On the other hand, Greg Davis has been a Dutch Hunter for many years, and if anyone would know the truth from the past, as well as the truth from the present, it would be Greg.

Perhaps keeping the legend alive is more important than anything else.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

I'm beginning to think many people are not as interested in trying to keep the LDM legends and stories as honest as possible as I am. One might suspect that they have been fabricated from the beginning, and those disinterested people are the only ones that know the real truth.

On the other hand, Greg Davis has been a Dutch Hunter for many years, and if anyone would know the truth from the past, as well as the truth from the present, it would be Greg.

Perhaps keeping the legend alive is more important than anything else.

Take care,

Joe

joe...i still amazes me the amount of people that believe in the ramblings of the dutchman and the writings of the ldm hunters that came after waltz,,we have the bark notes...holmes manuscript...gasslers manuscript..the stone maps..etc...none of these have ever led to a RECOVERED treasure or mine..why waste time following people that have failed?...all these people failed because of one thing...the dutchman either lied or his brain was too scrambled to give proper directions..

 

[gollum]

Something that constantly amazes me about this is that as far back as I can remember, since starting out with the DLM, is that many people have said countless times that there are so many lies, obfuscations, and misinformation that it is virtually impossible to start from scratch trying to find it by the clues available.

----------------- YET ----------------------------

Everybody still acts surprised when we come across those same lies, obfuscations, and misinformation. Its done for many reasons:

1. Put out bogus clues so touristas will search in places far from where the clue-giver is searching.

2. Profit (Books, Maps, and a thousand other things)

3. More clues to keep the DLM a "living" story (A rolling stone gathers no moss).

4. Add themselves into the story

5. A million other reasons I can't think of right now.

I hate to say this, but using the existing clues to try and find the DLM, is almost as bad as looking for it on Google Earth (ALMOST). I tried a new recipe: Add together ALL the known clues regarding the DLM, a sprinkle of greed, a pinch of ego, and you get what I lovingly call $hit stew! HAHAHA

I am sorry to break this to all the people working this that haven't (or will never) get to Arizona, but unless you do your own research, put YOUR boots on the ground in the Superstition Mountains, you will never find it, unless you are exceedingly lucky.

That said, I am absolutely certain that several people (mostly old timers) have clues that may never see the light publicly. Like much Native History, clues are handed down mouth to ear, generation to generation, of Dutch Hunter. It was either Dick or Brownie Holmes (I believe it was in The Holmes Manuscript) that said when he talked about the clues, there was a clue after the "rock that looks like a man" that he intentionally left out. That way, if someone found that rock, and told him, only he knew what the next clue REALLY was.

Mike

 

[gollum]

joe...i still amazes me the amount of people that believe in the ramblings of the dutchman and the writings of the ldm hunters that came after waltz,,we have the bark notes...holmes manuscript...gasslers manuscript..the stone maps..etc...none of these have ever led to a RECOVERED treasure or mine..why waste time following people that have failed?...all these people failed because of one thing...the dutchman either lied or his brain was too scrambled to give proper directions..

Dave,

That statement is not necessarily true. "The Pit Mine" is a recovered treasure or mine. From the statements of some people involved, we know that some called "The Pit Mine" the Lost Dutchman. That says a LOT of very high grade gold came out of that hole in the ground. Silverlocke and Malm found about $15,000 ($15K at about $20 per ounce in 1900) of float ore at the Massacre Grounds. Chuck Kenworthy had a trunk full of very high grade gold from the Supers in about 1997 or 1998 (I personally believe he bought it off the Pit Mine Folks [same time frame and area]). There are some more, but you get the point. At some point in the 1960's (I think) someone found a cache cave. It may or may not be true, because I think it was Chuck Crawford. I remember seeing a picture of a man and a woman on each end of a home made cart with really big wheels, and the description of the picture said something about this being the cart made by Crawford to haul the ore from the cache cave. I will have to find the article and pic.

Mike

PS

Has anybody noticed whether or not you can see both Miner's Needle and Weaver's Needle from the area of the Pit Mine? Even the ridge above it?

 

[gollum]

I wonder if anyone said anything at the time, about Holmes not being present at Waltz's funeral.
I mean, you would think he would give his last respects, being he was at least an acquaintance of Waltz. Maybe his absence is what started the rumor of him taking the candlebox of ore?

TXTEA,

Its a small thing, but that is one way erroneous information gets its' start.

In three different versions of the story I went back and reread to make sure, When Waltz took a turn for the worst, Julia ran out to get the Doctor. When she ran outside, she saw Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts standing there, and asked them to keep an eye on Waltz while she got the Doctor. It was then that Waltz spilled his guts to Holmes and gave him the ore (if you believe that version). I don't know if Dick Holmes was at Waltz' Funeral or not, but the funeral had nothing to do with Holmes getting the ore.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

That statement is not necessarily true. "The Pit Mine" is a recovered treasure or mine. From the statements of some people involved, we know that some called "The Pit Mine" the Lost Dutchman. That says a LOT of very high grade gold came out of that hole in the ground. Silverlocke and Malm found about $15,000 ($15K at about $20 per ounce in 1900) of float ore at the Massacre Grounds. Chuck Kenworthy had a trunk full of very high grade gold from the Supers in about 1997 or 1998 (I personally believe he bought it off the Pit Mine Folks [same time frame and area]). There are some more, but you get the point. At some point in the 1960's (I think) someone found a cache cave. It may or may not be true, because I think it was Chuck Crawford. I remember seeing a picture of a man and a woman on each end of a home made cart with really big wheels, and the description of the picture said something about this being the cart made by Crawford to haul the ore from the cache cave. I will have to find the article and pic.

Mike

PS

Has anybody noticed whether or not you can see both Miner's Needle and Weaver's Needle from the area of the Pit Mine? Even the ridge above it?

mike,,,actually it is true..i said nobody found anything by following the bark notes...holmes or gassler manuscript or stone maps...the pit mine was not discovered using any of the maps or writings i mentioned...but some folks might misunderstand my post and think i'm saying nothing has ever been found in the supers.....alot of goodies have been taken from those mountains and there is a bunch more still up there and in the surrounding hillsides...i'm just saying the documents and maps i mentioned are pretty much useless....so far anyway..lol

 

[cactusjumper]

mike,,,actually it is true..i said nobody found anything by following the bark notes...holmes or gassler manuscript or stone maps...the pit mine was not discovered using any of the maps or writings i mentioned...but some folks might misunderstand my post and think i'm saying nothing has ever been found in the supers.....alot of goodies have been taken from those mountains and there is a bunch more still up there and in the surrounding hillsides...i'm just saying the documents and maps i mentioned are pretty much useless....so far anyway..lol

Dave,

Actually, I believe the Stone Maps are real roadmaps to real mines and symbols in the mountains. They are as accurate as a hand drawn map can be, drawn from high elevations and memory. I have asked Tom K. if he helped create them, as he is the most qualified man alive to do it, but he thanked me and said he considered that a compliment, as he thought whoever did it was a very good artist. I accept Tom's word as the final one on my suspicions.

Take a drawing of the Stone Map trail up on Superstition Peak, sit on the north side of the peak, and compare the view below with the drawings in your hand.
You may notice that you have a great view of Four Peaks in the distance. Could be that Harry LaFrance's cave is just below you on the opposite side of the ravine that runs down into West Boulder.

In any case, you will see some wonderful views.

Take care,

Joe

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Joe,

Your most trusted, and knowledgeable sources both say the stone maps are fakes. You have brought this up when others claim they are real, are you losing faith, or what is it that triggered a change of heart?

Homar

 

[cactusjumper]

Howdy Joe,

Your most trusted, and knowledgeable sources both say the stone maps are fakes. You have brought this up when others claim they are real, are you losing faith, or what is it that triggered a change of heart?

Homar

Homar,

Happy to explain......I have always said that the Stone Maps could be a hoax. That has not changed but I now believe, as presented, they definitely are fake. However, that does not mean they are not an accurate map of the western part of the Superstition Mountains. My own map, laid out over 50 years ago, shows the area they represent. Everyone really familiar with the range, can draw or carve a reasonably accurate map of the Supe's. I did it when I was 13-years old, before ever going into the mountains.

In the case of the Stone Maps, I would call it reverse engineering.

Does that answer your question?

Take care,

Joe

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

Happy to explain......I have always said that the Stone Maps could be a hoax. That has not changed but I now believe, as presented, they definitely are fake. However, that does not mean they are not an accurate map of the western part of the Superstition Mountains. My own map, laid out over 50 years ago, shows the area they represent. Everyone really familiar with the range, can draw or carve a reasonably accurate map of the Supe's. I did it when I was 13-years old, before ever going into the mountains.

In the case of the Stone Maps, I would call it reverse engineering.

Does that answer your question?

Take care,

Joe

It does indeed, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Homar

 

[markmar]

Mrs Oroblanco

I want to complete my explanation about the Waltz's sketch/map and the clue which is in relation with this sketch . I post an aerial picture which depicts the meaning of the last proposition of the clue :

" You go up a steep tributary arroyo which seems to run right ito the shadows of overhanging cliffs , but instead ends finally in a miniature hidden valley .the gold shaft is in this valley " .



Sorry for the long time delay between the posts .

 

[somehiker]

Hi Marius:

I'm kinda partial to this hidden valley. It's even got it's own "window rock".

View attachment hidden valley.bmp

Oh yeah, and the neatest thing is, that the "window" has almost the same shape as that big rock formation behind it.

 

[Oroblanco]

Mrs Oroblanco

I want to complete my explanation about the Waltz's sketch/map and the clue which is in relation with this sketch . I post an aerial picture which depicts the meaning of the last proposition of the clue :

" You go up a steep tributary arroyo which seems to run right ito the shadows of overhanging cliffs , but instead ends finally in a miniature hidden valley .the gold shaft is in this valley " .

View attachment 1245006

Sorry for the long time delay between the posts .

Not to answer for Mrs O, especially as I have no idea what this is about, just thought I should let you know that Beth rarely visits T-net any more. I will try to remind her to pop in some time soon.

Wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas,
Roy ~ Oroblanco