The Peralta-Fish Map

[txtea]

Only one I've ever seen was on the back of a menu at a seafood restaurant in Galveston. .

 

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[azdave35]

Just a thought: has anyone seen a map known to have led someone to a location where hidden valuables were found? Sure, these things must have existed for private uses, but has the public ever been shown such a thing?

i knew a few people that have found goodies by interpreting symbols on cactus or rocks but never from a map...

 

[Oroblanco]

Howdy Roy,

Of coarse we were not there, but Holmes, and Roberts were. Julia, and Petrash were Waltz's closest friends when he has sick, not when he was on his deathbed. When he was in his deathbed, Julia rushed out to find the Doctor. Confessions to murder usually come out only when one is about to meet his maker.

Homar

You don't think Waltz would have at least mentioned this murderous history to his closest friends, before he passed away? And remember, according to other sources, Waltz was "feverish" and 'babbling incoherently' when this supposed story was told. Also, while Dick Holmes was (possibly***) present, the other man in the room, Gideon Roberts, never reported this tale of murders. Roberts passed away not too long afterward, but you would think that he might have at least mentioned the several murders supposedly confessed to by Waltz to someone.

***there is or was an argument on here about whether Dick Holmes was even in Phoenix on the date when Waltz died. There is evidence that he might have been out of the city visiting a mine.

Blindbowman - finding graves of dead men would only prove that they were indeed dead men. We have no idea who or whom might have killed them, or even if they were killed and did not die of some disease, or horrific accident. Remember, blasting in those days often included using blasting powder, highly dangerous to handle and pack in the drill holes. More than one widow was made by a miner or prospector trying to pack the blasting powder into the hole. Even if the skeletal remains were found to have bullet holes or knife wounds, there is no way to prove that it must have been the work of Waltz and NOT the work of Apaches.

 

[coazon de oro]

You don't think Waltz would have at least mentioned this murderous history to his closest friends, before he passed away? And remember, according to other sources, Waltz was "feverish" and 'babbling incoherently' when this supposed story was told. Also, while Dick Holmes was (possibly***) present, the other man in the room, Gideon Roberts, never reported this tale of murders. Roberts passed away not too long afterward, but you would think that he might have at least mentioned the several murders supposedly confessed to by Waltz to someone.

***there is or was an argument on here about whether Dick Holmes was even in Phoenix on the date when Waltz died. There is evidence that he might have been out of the city visiting a mine.

Blindbowman - finding graves of dead men would only prove that they were indeed dead men. We have no idea who or whom might have killed them, or even if they were killed and did not die of some disease, or horrific accident. Remember, blasting in those days often included using blasting powder, highly dangerous to handle and pack in the drill holes. More than one widow was made by a miner or prospector trying to pack the blasting powder into the hole. Even if the skeletal remains were found to have bullet holes or knife wounds, there is no way to prove that it must have been the work of Waltz and NOT the work of Apaches.

Howdy Roy,

Waltz was looking forward to getting better, he would not confess to murder while he was being cared for. He would have been kicked out, or reported to the Sheriff.

All those other "sources" claiming Waltz was feverish, and babbling incoherently, were not there, so they are not even real sources.

We do not know if Gildeon Roberts mentioned anything to anyone. No one goes around recording all of our conversations, get real.

The argument on whether Dick Holmes was in Phoenix on the day Waltz died, was settled. It was his father who had the same name, the one who was out of town visiting a mine. The last newspaper article that came out on it cleared up the confusion started by the first articles. You can ask Wayne T., or Matthew R. if you go to the rendezvous.

Homar

 

[Blindbowman]

I don't agree if Waltz said he shot 3 men and put them where he says he did and you find 3 men where he said he put them then you got to look at the logical as well as the facts they could tell you when those bodies died ..but that dose not change the facts those 3 men could have something on them that tells us who they are ...is that not the main reason for a confession letter to start with ... why write one if your going to lie about the stuff in it .. that would be just foolishness IMHO ....and I do know what your saying who knows tell we go and dig them up .. but what you learn may be just what you were looking for ....but I already know the camp is 1/2 south ..

 

[Blindbowman]

in fact we could add the nephew to that list as well you can drag a dead body down hill but you can not drag it up hill when your Waltz age ..if you think about it you would know his body is also ... he could not drag the body north ,and he could only drag the body south down hill a set distance . that's how I found the hanging rock ...I guess you just have to be a killer to think like one...lol

 

[Oroblanco]

Howdy Roy,

Waltz was looking forward to getting better, he would not confess to murder while he was being cared for. He would have been kicked out, or reported to the Sheriff.

All those other "sources" claiming Waltz was feverish, and babbling incoherently, were not there, so they are not even real sources.

We do not know if Gildeon Roberts mentioned anything to anyone. No one goes around recording all of our conversations, get real.

The argument on whether Dick Holmes was in Phoenix on the day Waltz died, was settled. It was his father who had the same name, the one who was out of town visiting a mine. The last newspaper article that came out on it cleared up the confusion started by the first articles. You can ask Wayne T., or Matthew R. if you go to the rendezvous.

Homar

No one proposed that people were recording all conversations. Today it is happening in millions of homes with the handy-dandy devices storing everything on the 'cloud'.

The other sources I was referring to were Julia and Reiney, both of whom were with Waltz on his last day alive and in the room although NOT in the room at the moment he passed away.

If Waltz really murdered seven men, why do we find the same story in the "Jacobs and Ludy" story? Also, the alternative version of the Lost Dutchman mine from the Pioneer interviews, has NO murders at all. See any possible issue(s) there?

Don't get me wrong, the Holmes manuscript version COULD be the truth and COULD lead someone to find the lost Dutchman's mine one day. However the record so far is not so successful, and neither is the version from Julia and Reiney (and published by Sims Ely and Pierpont Bicknell). Could the version obtained by the unemployed writers in the Depression, by interviewing old timers who knew Jacob Waltz from his days at Florence, be the true version? Or are you 100% convinced that the Holmes version is the correct one?

 

[coazon de oro]

Hola Barista del campo, we can go on forever if you keep refilling my cup. However I don't want to continue hijacking this thread, so as I depart I will tell you that I feel confident that when the LDM is found, you will find that Jacob Waltz did not lie to Dick Holmes.

Homar

 

[Blindbowman]

well look at from my point I do know where the mine is . and I everything in that will was true to the letter IMHO ...!even if it had been moved around it was easy for me to put it back the way it was before Waltz made changes in it ...so it is easy to see what Dick Holmes changed and if you look at Brownie wording he told you just what Dick Holmes told him ...then look at what he told Clay w. its in wording ...he never told Clay he told him everything Dick told Brownie ..he said he never lied to brownie and brownie never lied to Clay .. but never said he told him everything that dick told him .. but like I said Waltz had already made changes in the letter before Dick got it ...so Dick and Brownie had not chance of using the directions to find the mine ..IMHO ...they could not have used the directions to find the emine any more then Julia could have .. you can not take those directions and find the mine ... no way what so ever...

 

[Blindbowman]

lets look at like this .. if we are believe the Peralta /Ruth map and the Peralta /Fish map are both real and the Gonzales/Peralta map are real then they all end up at the same location .. and in fact they do ...so you have to ask your self if that's true . then some of the clues found on the Veni Vidi vici directions are the same as the will stated them .. the only way that is possible if the same direction were known by the Peralta family if we believe the will is correct then Waltz talked to the Peralta at the camp site and that's how he knew the same clues because the Peralta told him the same thing they told Ruth ... there is no other way possible Waltz could have known the information on the Peralta /ruth map unless he had heard it from the same source . the Peralta !

 

[Blindbowman]

I will close with one more detail .. see the truth is you got two parts of the history mixed up . the Peralta /Ruth map is from the Jesuit time line around the date of 1535-1539 when the stones were made ...by the Jesuits ..IMHO . and the Waltz directions came from the latter group of Peralta in the ...? what's the date . I told you all the dates the other day ... 1868-1881 I don't believe he had the mine before 1868 ..most likely he got the mine some time in the early 1870's , see the difference if the Jesuit were there till 1646 and they knew about the tunnel ...it shows up on the Peralta /Ruth map and the Peralta stones . it is not on the Gonzales map ...see Sims Ely gives us the correct clue . when he says the tunnel was lower down on the hill below .. it was not .. he never knew where the tunnel was because he got the direction from the Peralta and they never told the Gonzales about the tunnel .. two different groups of miners ..two different sets of direction for two some what different mining groups ..the first set the Peralta . the second set Peralta and Gonzales ..why did the Gonzales not know about the tunnel because that's where the Jesuit hide their skimmed treasure when the Spanish killed them off the tunnel vanished with them till it shows up latter on the Peralta /Ruth map and the stones ..its not on the Gonzales map because they never knew about it ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote

well look at from my point I do know where the mine is . and I everything in that will was true to the letter IMHO

What will? Can you post it or provide a link where we can read the will? Thanks in advance.

 

[Blindbowman]

Blindbowman wrote


What will? Can you post it or provide a link where we can read the will? Thanks in advance.

the letter found under the bed is the will ..IMHO

 

[Blindbowman]

if you look a will states ones sin and regrets and make repent in some form of honor .this letter found under the bed dose all of that when put back the way it was ...Dick Holmes change the letter to make it look like Waltz had given the letter to him when he was still alive .. that's imposable because Dick never knew about the words Waltz had changed in the letter ... the out right fact Waltz was Dead when Dick Holmes took that Letter ..how do I know . for one if you wrote a letter like this you would have put a heading on it . there was no heading ..the letter has way to many details for a dying man to right with his last breath ,the things that were moved from one place in the letter to another place to make it look like the letter was given to Dick Holmes are easy to put back where they should be in the real will ...you can even spot the signal words that Dick Changed threw out the letter ...see the fact is Dick over did it when he started changing the letter ....before Dick made any changes what so ever there were two lines out of place , that made the direction confusing ,once a person knows where the mine is you can pick those two lines out easy ...Waltz is the only one that knew where the mine was and the only one that could have wrote the letter before Dick Holmes got to it ...Waltz is the only one that could have change those details around and known they were changed because he know where the mine was when he wrote the letter . he never told Dick Holmes anything . I am sure of that and Dick Holmes got what he deserved ....yes IMHO it is in fact his will and I am glad to See Dick was easy to fool ,it is true and sad Brownie Holmes paid the price as well but ..but that was cost paid for his fathers sins ....Waltz only set the trap .. Dick Holmes got pulled in because he made the choice to take what was not his . and Waltz may not have had a bear trap setting near that box under his bed but what he had was just as effective to the letter ...

 

[Blindbowman]

if you really want to know the facts then you have to look at what took place after Dick Holmes took the letter . do I believe Waltz would have left the gold under the bed to Julia yes , would Waltz have told Julia what was in his will .. yes ...did Dick Holmes greed and actions cost him pain and suffering yes , Did it cost his son Brownie Holmes the same pain and suffering yes ..but you have to look at it with a open mind .. Julia went to court to get the gold ....she never knew about the letter and that is out right clear because if she had read the will she would have told the court about it ...her interest was in getting the gold back ... and that's why Waltz told her about the caches and told her not to worry about the mine ...because he could read Dick Holmes like a foot print in mud ...he already knew what was going to happen ...dick Holmes started a chain reaction that took Brownies life and sent good men like Clay worst down the same path . I was going to give the mine to Clay ..you want the truth can you even handle the truth most of the treasure hunters here can not handle the truth the man that gives the mine away will profit the most from his own greed . he will be able to no when to stop it and how to control his own actions when to walk away . when to realize what is true wealth is . his friends and family .. the power to write your own will word for word and if any thing else ever comes out of that mine is the fact Waltz wrote his own will I am fine with that ...is the mine real yes I have seen it with my own two eyes . its as real as the rocks in those mountains every damn one of them ...as real as the pain and suffering it has left in its wake ...its up to each of you to go and look or stay home and dream of what you could find .. because its out there and its real but your never going to even to get close if you have family and friends because good people like me never find what they need in life any more then the greed do or the sinners .. because we realize a mountain of gold is worthless when you have a heart as big as I do .. you would see the need of others and you would most likely die penniless and happy with your family and friends ...is the letter his will Yes it is IMHO and my words are just as valued to me as Waltz 's were to him ....

 

[Blindbowman]

and by the way just in case some of you think me & ore got off topic 0f this thread let Me re- line the thread back on topic , with a few words .. what did I say I stated out right " that is not the Rio Salado " for one simple reason ,, "the maps up side down ! "

 

[Blindbowman]

all those maps clay showed everyone . they are up side down ...Fish did not know how to read the map because as I pointed out it had no words on it and he had no idea how to read it because he did not make it Ruth did ...

 

[Blindbowman]

you can tell me Fish was going to be the next pope but it dose not change the logical facts of this reality .. Fish put the words on the map m and he stated he had been shot at just in case anyone found out the truth .. he shot twice Ruth was shot twice ... and when it is all over no matter what we believe Fish came up with a map with no words on it and he had know idea how to read the map because Ruth never got the chance to tell him how to read it ...IMHO if you think Fish got that map any other way good for you but I don't and I am sure of what I think the chain of events were at the time they took place ...in fact I don't know of any map that shows the trail going south ...towards Mexico .. to get to AZ ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman could you post the letter found under Waltz's bed for everyone to read? Thanks in advance.

I do not know how to tie this back into the topic, but very highly doubt that Frank Fish was involved in the death of Adolph Ruth. Perhaps you might also if you read the correspondence between Erwin Ruth and the Phoenix city detectives, and their interview with the girlfriend of one of the two men Ruth hired to pack him in. The story she told was that they had murdered Ruth and took his map. That map ended up being lost by one of the two men in a court fight when the man he was disputing grabbed it and ran out of the courtroom, never to be seen again. How could Frank Fish be involved with this? I can't see how.



PS the two "cowboy/prospectors" hired by Adolph Ruth were named L.F. Purnell and Jack Keenan. Couldn't remember the names, sorry for that!

 

[Blindbowman]

I once copied that letter from a web site I have the copy some where but I don't know where it is right now ...I am sure it was also posted here on this site back when we first started talking about Dick Holmes and his taking the gold from under the bed ...this is not the same as the one that tells about his working in Vicksburg :"Go to first water, then to second water, then take the old government trail to San Carlos. Where the trail turns south you will see over the point of a ridge a rock standing in the brush that looks like a man. This is where I always leave the trail. Go to the left of the trail and follow up the long ridge and you will come to a saddle. In this saddle is a round Indian ruin of rocks. Go through this saddle and on up a low ridge and when you get to the highest point of the ridge you can look north and the four peaks are lined up to look like one peak. In the other direction you will see a high needle. In the canyon under you is my hidden camp. You can't get down there because it's too steep, go to the mouth of the canyon and then back. You can find the rock house with very little difficulty. You won't be able to see it until you are right upon it. After you find the camp then come back out of the canyon. (Here Waltz gave a direction to the mine that Holmes and Roberts kept secret). You will never be able to find the mine until you first find the rock house as the shaft is completely hidden. A prospector won't find it because there is no ledge in view. In the mine you will find about $75,000 dollars in gold already dug out. There is enough gold left to dig to make twenty men millionaires." I dug the outcropping away and erased all signs of my digging." but this reminds me of Babcock talking about chicomoztoc... that is not the letter I am talking about it has some detail but there was two pages and it ends with the words then Waltz was dead ...