The Peralta-Fish Map

[Hal Croves]

El guijo


View attachment 1757739

El quijo rajar....
The quartz crack...?

El quijo royas...?
The rusty quartz....?

El quijo rojas...?
The red quartz...?

 

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[gollum]

The reason I asked is because I don't know what to read. There are about 7462 books out there about the the LDM. Just my wild guess. And then the web sites... But I am not asking because I suspect you. Thanks for taking the time to list some things
From what I have read Frank Fish seemed more paranoid than usual.
Can you imagine if you are out in the wilderness with a couple of guys, and gain entry to a hidden mine to discover heaps of gold bars. Never mind others showing up-I think you are going to wonder how well do you really know your friends
I would ask you for the source for your "sky is blue" theory but I guess I can dig that up for myself

HP,

If I were wanting to know which book to start with, I would have to say "The Lost Dutchman Mine" by Sims Ely. He and Jim Bark actually knew most f the characters of the time. They personally spoke to Julia and Reiney and are the closest thing you will ever find to the a"Horse's Mouth". You can still find reasonably priced 3rd or 4th editions
online. You will pay a premium for a 1953 First Edition. No softcovers either.

Actually, here is a first edition with no dust jacket on fleabay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Lost-D...441153?hash=item56c9d62181:g:orIAAOSwEhVdaW7q

You should get a firm grounding on the story from a book that does not rely on a ton of supposition and innuendo. Between Sims Ely and Jim Bark, they spent about seventy years searching for the LDM. They knew and talked to most of the people that had first hand knowledge and were some of the more serious and early "Dutch Hunters".

Mike

 

[Hal Croves]

El quijo rajar....
The quartz crack...?

El quijo royas...?
The rusty quartz....?

El quijo rojas...?
The red quartz...?

The last word I think may be c a s a r o s.
The compound of casar - to marry, wed, unite and os - opening, mouth, either end of cervix.

El quijo rojas casaros.

The quartz red union.
The wedding/marriage/union of red quartz.

 

[Hal Croves]

The last word I think may be c a s a r o s.
The compound of casr - to marry, wed, unite and os - opening, mouth, either end of cervix.

El quijo rojas casaros.

The quartz red union.
The wedding/marriage/union of red quartz.

GE image and the map.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

HP,

If I were wanting to know which book to start with, I would have to say "The Lost Dutchman Mine" by Sims Ely. He and Jim Bark actually knew most f the characters of the time. They personally spoke to Julia and Reiney and are the closest thing you will ever find to the a"Horse's Mouth". You can still find reasonably priced 3rd or 4th editions
online. You will pay a premium for a 1953 First Edition. No softcovers either.

Actually, here is a first edition with no dust jacket on fleabay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Lost-D...441153?hash=item56c9d62181:g:orIAAOSwEhVdaW7q

You should get a firm grounding on the story from a book that does not rely on a ton of supposition and innuendo. Between Sims Ely and Jim Bark, they spent about seventy years searching for the LDM. They knew and talked to most of the people that had first hand knowledge and were some of the more serious and early "Dutch Hunters".

Mike

Thanks for the information. I wasn't aware there anyone that close to the original story.

 

[sdcfia]

Thanks for the information. I wasn't aware there anyone that close to the original story.

Always get as close to the bone as you can. Degrees of separation is paramount - one is the best you can hope for, and even those stories are questionable. After that, all bets are off.

Here's the rub, in spades. Seventy years of searching with the best information available and no cigar. What's a Dutch Hunter to think?

 

[Oroblanco]

Hillbilly Prince wrote

The reason I asked is because I don't know what to read. There are about 7462 books out there about the the LDM. Just my wild guess. And then the web sites... But I am not asking because I suspect you. Thanks for taking the time to list some things
From what I have read Frank Fish seemed more paranoid than usual.
Can you imagine if you are out in the wilderness with a couple of guys, and gain entry to a hidden mine to discover heaps of gold bars. Never mind others showing up-I think you are going to wonder how well do you really know your friends
I would ask you for the source for your "sky is blue" theory but I guess I can dig that up for myself

AHA! I bet you thought I would not have been ready for that one!

https://www.amazon.com/Sky-Was-Blue-Charlotte-Zolotow/dp/0060270012

Kidding aside you are 100% right, as the Walter Huston character claimed in Treasure of the Sierra Madre, 'when the piles of gold begin to grow, that's when the trouble starts!'

Coazon de Oro wrote

Howdy Roy,

I rest my case, there is no publication where those who knew Jacob Waltz accused him of murder. The Holmes Manuscript has Waltz talking, and confessing to Holmes, and Roberts. It is said that Dick Holmes went to Hidden Water, and confirmed one of those murders.
The reason many ask you where you read something, is mainly because you have a habit of twisting what was written, which is very clear on your response to my post. It is not an accusation when there is a confession.

Homar

Well Homar, Mitchell, Storm and other early writers all included accusations of Waltz being a murderer. In the Holmes tale, remember there is the part where Dick is discussing the idea of trailing Waltz with a friend and the friend is too terrified to try it because of the reputation of Waltz too. But the Holmes Manuscript is not written by Waltz so we do not know if the writer was putting words into the mouth of Waltz or not - nor if he did, was Waltz being truthful in the telling? Remember Brownie denied ever writing the manuscript even though a witness claimed to have seen him writing it. Plus we have no independent confirmation of that tale of Dick Holmes recovering a skull and chain from the spring at Hidden Water either. It appears that you have misunderstood what I was saying - because I have been saying for years that I am NOT convinced that Waltz ever murdered anyone.

As to your last part, since you are accusing me of having a regular "habit of twisting what is written" and supposedly have made my own "confession" I want to know exactly what you are talking about. I never said that people were accusing Waltz of being a murderer IN HIS TIME. It appears that you have inserted that misunderstanding into what I posted because I never said any such thing. And I want some examples of where I am "twisting what is written" too. Your misunderstanding a post is not my 'twisting' anything.

 

[cw0909]

Here I split the RGB channels of the original color image. The RED channel (obviously the easiest to read) is what I will be using when I post details of the PFM.

View attachment 1753990

Hal have you tried a print out of the red and a light box/pad
not sure it might help you see it better, you can search utube
for model, see which you like, they can be bought at amazon
some info
https://www.thearchitectsguide.com/blog/light-table

 

[cw0909]

something i tried, i couldnt fig the points,and size out
the red dot is a marker of weavers needle
maybe someone else can, caltopo has a lot of features

https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=33.43799,-111.35468&z=13&b=mbt

 

[Hal Croves]

Always get as close to the bone as you can. Degrees of separation is paramount - one is the best you can hope for, and even those stories are questionable. After that, all bets are off.

Here's the rub, in spades. Seventy years of searching with the best information available and no cigar. What's a Dutch Hunter to think?

Who knows? Not everyone would step forward.

 

[sdcfia]

Who knows? Not everyone would step forward.

That implies that, if it exists, the site has been found and likely exploited - if so, probably very early in the game. Of course there are other possibilities: 1) the site, if it exists, is so incredibly remote and/or well hidden that it likely may never be found. Many tens of thousands of futile search hours by capable people would support this. Or, 2) the site doesn't exist. Name your poison.

 

[coazon de oro]

El quijo rajar....
The quartz crack...?

El quijo royas...?
The rusty quartz....?

El quijo rojas...?
The red quartz...?

Might be referring to a fault line?

 

[gollum]

That implies that, if it exists, the site has been found and likely exploited - if so, probably very early in the game. Of course there are other possibilities: 1) the site, if it exists, is so incredibly remote and/or well hidden that it likely may never be found. Many tens of thousands of futile search hours by capable people would support this. Or, 2) the site doesn't exist. Name your poison.

I will share some of the things I have learned in my several years researching the Superstition Mountains Treasures.

1. The mine can easily exist (the Pit Mine Proves it is possible)

2. The mine could have easily not been found, even by people well associated with the mountains (so many places to hide and some of the nastiest terrain you will ever find)

3. The mine has 99% likely not been found (no matter what finds have been made, they have most all been talked about and the stories are known even if by just a few)

4. Before Waltz said he sealed his mine, it may have been found by several people. It has not claimed to have been found (with evidence) since after Waltz said he sealed it.

5. The way Waltz sealed the mine entrance would likely preclude the ground from sagging or caving in over time (mesquite or most other woods would have rotted, but the Ironwood Waltz said he used would have just gotten harder with age. Another example of old diggings being concealed like this is the "Wandering Jew Mine" down near Tumacacori. The modern miners found a rich ledge of Galena. They found two rich ends of the vein about nine hundred feet apart. When they started to drift in between them, they found the old diggings covered with logs, branches dirt, and rock. NOBODY saw anything unusual on the surface. It was only found when they started digging.

6. If you are honest, a bit humble, and not a nutjob, you will find many old timers willing to share more knowledge than you can imagine.

7. 99.5% of everything you will read or hear about the Lost Dutchman Mine is complete and utter BS. Some leads were made up by cattlemen who wanted to keep treasure hunters away from their cattle grazing. Some leads were made up by treasure hunters wanting to keep other treasure hunters away from where they thought the mine was. Some leads were made up by people wanting to add their names to the legend. Some leads were made up by newspaper men wanting to put things never before seen in their articles. Some authors made up leads to prove they had some inside information that nobody else had and to make money from book sales......................and some people spent some time and money searching for the LDM, and when they didn't find anything, they wrote books about how since they were such professionals, "if they couldn't find it it must not exist" (Karl von Mueller).

THAT is a LOT of people making up crap and others pretending their suppositions and guesses were facts. There are a crap-ton of books about the LDM and Superstition Treasures. There may be a kernel or two to be gleaned in most of them, but by in large, they are mostly crap.

Take all that crap for what its worth! LOL

Mike

PS

As an afterthought, why did the mods start this subject, and leave the LDM by itself. Isn't the Lost Dutchman Mine one of the Superstition Legends? Just sayin'

PPS

Hillbilly Prince

Another good book to read is "The Stirling Legend" by Estee Conatser

 

[Hal Croves]

That implies that, if it exists, the site has been found and likely exploited - if so, probably very early in the game. Of course there are other possibilities: 1) the site, if it exists, is so incredibly remote and/or well hidden that it likely may never be found. Many tens of thousands of futile search hours by capable people would support this. Or, 2) the site doesn't exist. Name your poison.

Most likely one or more of the nine (ten?) have been found and I agree that it was early on.
But they cant all be as rich as the mine Waltz described.

So a less impressive mine, discovered by a clever person... they would have no reason to step forward.

 

[sdcfia]

I will share some of the things I have learned in my several years researching the Superstition Mountains Treasures.

1. The mine can easily exist (the Pit Mine Proves it is possible)

2. The mine could have easily not been found, even by people well associated with the mountains (so many places to hide and some of the nastiest terrain you will ever find)

3. The mine has 99% likely not been found (no matter what finds have been made, they have most all been talked about and the stories are known even if by just a few)

4. Before Waltz said he sealed his mine, it may have been found by several people. It has not claimed to have been found (with evidence) since after Waltz said he sealed it.

5. The way Waltz sealed the mine entrance would likely preclude the ground from sagging or caving in over time (mesquite or most other woods would have rotted, but the Ironwood Waltz said he used would have just gotten harder with age. Another example of old diggings being concealed like this is the "Wandering Jew Mine" down near Tumacacori. The modern miners found a rich ledge of Galena. They found two rich ends of the vein about nine hundred feet apart. When they started to drift in between them, they found the old diggings covered with logs, branches dirt, and rock. NOBODY saw anything unusual on the surface. It was only found when they started digging.

6. If you are honest, a bit humble, and not a nutjob, you will find many old timers willing to share more knowledge than you can imagine.

7. 99.5% of everything you will read or hear about the Lost Dutchman Mine is complete and utter BS. Some leads were made up by cattlemen who wanted to keep treasure hunters away from their cattle grazing. Some leads were made up by treasure hunters wanting to keep other treasure hunters away from where they thought the mine was. Some leads were made up by people wanting to add their names to the legend. Some leads were made up by newspaper men wanting to put things never before seen in their articles. Some authors made up leads to prove they had some inside information that nobody else had and to make money from book sales......................and some people spent some time and money searching for the LDM, and when they didn't find anything, they wrote books about how since they were such professionals, "if they couldn't find it it must not exist" (Karl von Mueller).

THAT is a LOT of people making up crap and others pretending their suppositions and guesses were facts. There are a crap-ton of books about the LDM and Superstition Treasures. There may be a kernel or two to be gleaned in most of them, but by in large, they are mostly crap.

Take all that crap for what its worth! LOL

Mike

PS

As an afterthought, why did the mods start this subject, and leave the LDM by itself. Isn't the Lost Dutchman Mine one of the Superstition Legends? Just sayin'

PPS

Hillbilly Prince

Another good book to read is "The Stirling Legend" by Estee Conatser

Excellent post, IMO. I agree with all points that you made. My contention re the LDM has always been that I personally would not put an ounce of effort into a serious search for the alleged site - the odds are overwhelmingly negative, even if the story is true. It all depends on why a person believes the things he does about these Classic Lost Treasures. I would prefer chasing little-known challenges in less trampled locations. The odds are much better.

 

[coazon de oro]

Hillbilly Prince wrote


AHA! I bet you thought I would not have been ready for that one!

https://www.amazon.com/Sky-Was-Blue-Charlotte-Zolotow/dp/0060270012

Kidding aside you are 100% right, as the Walter Huston character claimed in Treasure of the Sierra Madre, 'when the piles of gold begin to grow, that's when the trouble starts!'

Coazon de Oro wrote



Well Homar, Mitchell, Storm and other early writers all included accusations of Waltz being a murderer. In the Holmes tale, remember there is the part where Dick is discussing the idea of trailing Waltz with a friend and the friend is too terrified to try it because of the reputation of Waltz too. But the Holmes Manuscript is not written by Waltz so we do not know if the writer was putting words into the mouth of Waltz or not - nor if he did, was Waltz being truthful in the telling? Remember Brownie denied ever writing the manuscript even though a witness claimed to have seen him writing it. Plus we have no independent confirmation of that tale of Dick Holmes recovering a skull and chain from the spring at Hidden Water either. It appears that you have misunderstood what I was saying - because I have been saying for years that I am NOT convinced that Waltz ever murdered anyone.

As to your last part, since you are accusing me of having a regular "habit of twisting what is written" and supposedly have made my own "confession" I want to know exactly what you are talking about. I never said that people were accusing Waltz of being a murderer IN HIS TIME. It appears that you have inserted that misunderstanding into what I posted because I never said any such thing. And I want some examples of where I am "twisting what is written" too. Your misunderstanding a post is not my 'twisting' anything.

Old habits die hard Amigo, look at what you just did to the Holmes Manuscript. You twist it around to make Waltz seem innocent from his confession to murder by taking away words from Waltz's mouth. No, you will never see it, old habits die hard.

You said that people were accusing Waltz of being a murderer. I did not insert a misunderstanding, the reason I inserted "in his time", is because only before his confession to murder could it be an accusation, after his confession, it is not an accusation anymore. I thought you would understand this.

Early writers knew of Waltz confession to murder because that was all the Holmes and Roberts were willing to share with others.

Homar

 

[azdave35]

Old habits die hard Amigo, look at what you just did to the Holmes Manuscript. You twist it around to make Waltz seem innocent from his confession to murder by taking away words from Waltz's mouth. No, you will never see it, old habits die hard.

You said that people were accusing Waltz of being a murderer. I did not insert a misunderstanding, the reason I inserted "in his time", is because only before his confession to murder could it be an accusation, after his confession, it is not an accusation anymore. I thought you would understand this.

Early writers knew of Waltz confession to murder because that was all the Holmes and Roberts were willing to share with others.

Homar

homar... there is alot of doubt in the air about the holmes manuscript...brownie says he never wrote it...there is only one man still living that knows what brownie knew...if he is at the rendezvous this year maybe someone will ask him

 

[coazon de oro]

homar... there is alot of doubt in the air about the holmes manuscript...brownie says he never wrote it...there is only one man still living that knows what brownie knew...if he is at the rendezvous this year maybe someone will ask him

Howdy azdave35,

I am well aware that there are many who doubt the Holmes Manuscript as much as the Peralta Stones. All their doubts come from assumptions, nothing else. One truth has to stand against many lies, and assumptions. The odds are always against the truth, that is why it is easier to doubt the truth.
Yes Brownie told Clay, "I don't know if Waltz ever lied to my Dad, but I know my Dad never lied to me". That is just because Brownie could not find the things Waltz said were there.

 

[Hal Croves]

Excellent post, IMO. I agree with all points that you made. My contention re the LDM has always been that I personally would not put an ounce of effort into a serious search for the alleged site - the odds are overwhelmingly negative, even if the story is true. It all depends on why a person believes the things he does about these Classic Lost Treasures. I would prefer chasing little-known challenges in less trampled locations. The odds are much better.

It’s wouldn’t be the same.

 

[sdcfia]

It’s wouldn’t be the same.

You're right because it depends on why you do what you're doing. It seems to me that many are attracted by the big ticket LDM allure because of the challenge of solving that which has eluded so many others for so many years. IMO, most likely realize that the solution will almost certainly elude them too. I get it that serious LDM hunters become part of a unique band of brothers and that it becomes a sort of personal branding. That's cool.

Me, I'd privately involve myself in a search that I calculated had reasonable chances of success because, 1) it would be fun, and 2) I'd be anticipating a nice payday.