Silverchair
Jr. Member
First off, They want there property back. They don't talk like that. So False, Or RG addlib that a little.
Just saying
SC
The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?
- Thread starter Oroblanco
- Start date
First off, They want there property back. They don't talk like that. So False, Or RG addlib that a little.
Just saying
SC
Carl995
Hero Member
- Apr 5, 2015
- 665
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- All Treasure Hunting
That looks very similar to the cross I found that lifted out of the rock slab. mine had no markings tho....
Old
Hero Member
Matthew,
Again, we remember this discussion differently.
I am including below the complete text of your post to me (Post 271 from thread: Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman Mine?) and my return post to you. Emphasis added by me, lined in blue
Your Post 271
Old,
What you say may be true. It's not my story so I let the people who were involved tell it the way they see it.
I have been to the Rogers Spring site a couple of times, I've been to the "Pit mine" site also. I was at the Spring while the dig was progressing although no one was there digging that particular day. I've talked to Billy Martin and he has a much different view of what transpired.
I was at the Mesa Forest Service Office and told they didn't have anything on a Treasure Trove Permit being issued but do have record of permission being given to access and dig at the Spring to improve the water flow for wildlife and leave the site in better shape when finished. The Arizona Archaeological Society in Phoenix doesn't have any records on the excavation. They record and are involved with every dig in Arizona unless it is privately done on private land.
What you say may be true and it doesn't make any difference to me either way. I've read Quentin Cox's manuscript and personal letters and as you say he certainly did find gold bullion and several treasure chambers in Billy Martins Spring tunnel.
Quentin believed the Mexican-Spanish were mining well above the Gila River and that is a point I absolutely agree with him on.
Matthew
My reply Post 272:
Mr. Roberts,
I try very hard to provide special notice when I'm guessing or speculating. In this case, I'm not guessing.
Assuming the letter of the law was followed in filling the FOIA request which I have no reason to doubt was accomplished, I have in hand all permits, historical evidence given in support of the permit, Archaeology and Forest Service reports of artifacts found and their disposition, with the exception of one archaeology report yet to be sent. My comments are gleaned from those papers.
I do take issue with one of your statements about who's story this is. This is America's story. The land, the artifacts, and their meaning belong to all of us. I consider it an important story and I'm most unhappy its been kept from open access public knowledge up to this point. I do thank Mr. Feldman and his group for pursuing the matter and his expense and considerable work in the project. I wish Mr. Feldman and group all the best and hope their rewards were worth the effort.
A special use permit was issued to include a Treasure Trove provision beginning date September 1, 2004, amended to extend the termination date on three occasions, and last ending May 31, 2005. The permit identification No. is MES434.
An archaeological Monitoring report was issued by Rio Salado Archaeology, LLC dated June 14, 2005 and revised September 28, 2005. An additional archaeological report may become available to me pending clearance of propriety interests.
My interest in this project has been from the beginning the determination of whether or not matters of historical importance were found during the excavation of this project. Whether or not gold bars, or gold laden ore were discovered interests me much less than whether or not this site yielded evidence of pre-Anglo mining activity within the area. The reports in hand confirm that indeed is the case.
Again, we remember this discussion differently.
I am including below the complete text of your post to me (Post 271 from thread: Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman Mine?) and my return post to you. Emphasis added by me, lined in blue
Your Post 271
Old,
What you say may be true. It's not my story so I let the people who were involved tell it the way they see it.
I have been to the Rogers Spring site a couple of times, I've been to the "Pit mine" site also. I was at the Spring while the dig was progressing although no one was there digging that particular day. I've talked to Billy Martin and he has a much different view of what transpired.
I was at the Mesa Forest Service Office and told they didn't have anything on a Treasure Trove Permit being issued but do have record of permission being given to access and dig at the Spring to improve the water flow for wildlife and leave the site in better shape when finished. The Arizona Archaeological Society in Phoenix doesn't have any records on the excavation. They record and are involved with every dig in Arizona unless it is privately done on private land.
What you say may be true and it doesn't make any difference to me either way. I've read Quentin Cox's manuscript and personal letters and as you say he certainly did find gold bullion and several treasure chambers in Billy Martins Spring tunnel.
Quentin believed the Mexican-Spanish were mining well above the Gila River and that is a point I absolutely agree with him on.
Matthew
My reply Post 272:
Mr. Roberts,
I try very hard to provide special notice when I'm guessing or speculating. In this case, I'm not guessing.
Assuming the letter of the law was followed in filling the FOIA request which I have no reason to doubt was accomplished, I have in hand all permits, historical evidence given in support of the permit, Archaeology and Forest Service reports of artifacts found and their disposition, with the exception of one archaeology report yet to be sent. My comments are gleaned from those papers.
I do take issue with one of your statements about who's story this is. This is America's story. The land, the artifacts, and their meaning belong to all of us. I consider it an important story and I'm most unhappy its been kept from open access public knowledge up to this point. I do thank Mr. Feldman and his group for pursuing the matter and his expense and considerable work in the project. I wish Mr. Feldman and group all the best and hope their rewards were worth the effort.
A special use permit was issued to include a Treasure Trove provision beginning date September 1, 2004, amended to extend the termination date on three occasions, and last ending May 31, 2005. The permit identification No. is MES434.
An archaeological Monitoring report was issued by Rio Salado Archaeology, LLC dated June 14, 2005 and revised September 28, 2005. An additional archaeological report may become available to me pending clearance of propriety interests.
My interest in this project has been from the beginning the determination of whether or not matters of historical importance were found during the excavation of this project. Whether or not gold bars, or gold laden ore were discovered interests me much less than whether or not this site yielded evidence of pre-Anglo mining activity within the area. The reports in hand confirm that indeed is the case.
Silverchair
Jr. Member
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Silverchair
Jr. Member
Markmar
So if I were you, I'd seek out the highest Arch in the Supers that match the one on the Cross, Since its description is shown and not just the symbol for the Arch. It will match the one on the map and so will the others. One you will pass under in your journey,
Be Safe Silver Chair
So if I were you, I'd seek out the highest Arch in the Supers that match the one on the Cross, Since its description is shown and not just the symbol for the Arch. It will match the one on the map and so will the others. One you will pass under in your journey,
Be Safe Silver Chair
audigger53
Hero Member
Also depends on the month of the year for the angle/height of the sun. I would lean more towards the fall/winter for working the mine, if there is one. I would also not count the Monsoon season as flash floods would not be good for crossing some of the ravines and washes. So late Oct through November if looking for a mine as Dec-Jan would not leave much time for working the mine. IMO
Silverchair
Jr. Member
It's marked with the R
January
SC
January
SC
JohnWhite
Bronze Member
- Aug 20, 2017
- 1,524
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This brings us back to the alchemy signs of the crescent moon and the sun which represents platinum...I could be wrong...But as markmar is trying to represent the Virgin de Guadalupe or the Virgin Mary standing on the crescent moon...
Who is to say
deducer
Bronze Member
- Jan 7, 2014
- 2,281
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I don't understand why you think you could come on this forum and make a bold claim and not expect anyone to ask you to substantiate such claims?
This practice happens here all the time on TNET, where posters (oftentime new ones) have many times made outlandish and grandiose claims that they have found the LDM, the Jesuit treasure, or gold bars, or whatever, that they dug up, took photos of, then reburied and then refuse to post said photos online and get huffy when called out on their statements.
Your reactions upon being asked to substantiate your claims have been similar.
If you decline to provide some reasoning, proof, or cite a source to back up what you said, that's fine, and I understand, but you will have to expect the customary treatment that is given to posters who don't back up their claims.
I am very aware that an offer was made to me, and I have respectfully declined it.
Old
Hero Member
Deducer writes>>>>I am very aware that an offer was made to me, and I have respectfully declined it. <<<
I want that to sink in. Everything you asked for has been offered to you. You declined. Enough said.
I want that to sink in. Everything you asked for has been offered to you. You declined. Enough said.
somehiker
Silver Member
- May 1, 2007
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And WHO has the history of making what we all see as grandiose claims Lynda ?
Of multiple stone maps carved by Travis....of a storage unit containing "blueprints" and other documents created by a talented artist....of high-level SJ involvement in RG's treasure hunt....
And NOW....a claim that Travis had "acquired" over one million dollars in "stolen" Jesuit "vestments" etc.
To be perfectly blunt...that would be RG and YOU !
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markmar
Silver Member
- Oct 17, 2012
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Silverchair
The place of the wanted cave is on a terace , in the middle of a cliff , and the only way to approach it , is a narrow path running between large boulders on the side of the terace . Not a little chance to find it without instructions .
Now , I post two GE images of the site . In the summer time ( pic 1 ) the symbol is better recognized , and is to the right of the big tree . The second pic is from March and the fresh green brushes have covered in part the symbol . I post the second pic ( pic 2 ) up side down , to see better how the terrain is . In this pic , you can distinguish the narrow path in the right up corner .
The arch is at the top of the cliff , and is the liitle arch on the stone Cross map .
The place of the wanted cave is on a terace , in the middle of a cliff , and the only way to approach it , is a narrow path running between large boulders on the side of the terace . Not a little chance to find it without instructions .
Now , I post two GE images of the site . In the summer time ( pic 1 ) the symbol is better recognized , and is to the right of the big tree . The second pic is from March and the fresh green brushes have covered in part the symbol . I post the second pic ( pic 2 ) up side down , to see better how the terrain is . In this pic , you can distinguish the narrow path in the right up corner .
The arch is at the top of the cliff , and is the liitle arch on the stone Cross map .
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Matthew Roberts
Bronze Member
Old,
I checked again yesterday and the US Forest Service Permit you quoted as a Treasure Trove Permit is NOT a Treasure Trove Permit it is a special use permit with strict guidelines allowing the HEAT group to dig in a specified area, enhance the flow of Rogers spring and return the area to it's natural condition. According to the Mesa Ranger Station, Tonto National Forest USFS as of this date there has been no Treasure Trove Permit issued.
The Archaeology group you quoted, Rio Salado Archaeology of Tempe is one and the same as I posted. The two men, Eric Steinbeck and J. Rice are Rio Salado Archaeology.
So I do not owe you an apology as you posted and furthermore if the information you have concerning the Jesuits is the "same level of proof" as the "proof" you tried to slander me with, it makes me rethink my whole position on RMG and his Tumlinson-Jesuit connection.
I have always been respectful and fair with you Old and only ask the same in return.
Matthew
Old
Hero Member
Matthew, you're a kind man. I pointed out where you have a history of questioning my posts. You called my post a falsehood. I think not. I produced the underlying posts in support of my opinion. I don't think you are maliciously furthering incorrect information. I think you truly believe that if you don't find it, it doesn't exist. It does exist. In spades on both issues. That's what I'm trying to convey.
What you are doing is splitting hairs. They are ALL special use permits. This one has a Treasure Trove provision. That's how its done. It speaks specifically to what may be recovered and how. I won't post the whole document because it has Mr. Feldman's personal information. I respect him enough to not plaster that on a public forum.
All this gets old, real old. The point and the parallel is you told me, in so many words, what I posted at the time was incorrect because you had spoken with both the Forest Service and the archeologist society and because you came up empty that I was mistaken. Currently you say I'm again mistaken because you have spoken to the California SOJ and have come up empty on this topic as well. You are just as wrong on this as you were on the Treasure Trove permit. Both exist and I have them in my possession.
If you would like a copy of the Permit I will be happy to email it to you as well as the Forest Service letters referencing the Treasure Trove Permit. I'm sure you already have Mr. Feldman's personal contact information so that won't be a prohibiting issue in your case.
What you are doing is splitting hairs. They are ALL special use permits. This one has a Treasure Trove provision. That's how its done. It speaks specifically to what may be recovered and how. I won't post the whole document because it has Mr. Feldman's personal information. I respect him enough to not plaster that on a public forum.
All this gets old, real old. The point and the parallel is you told me, in so many words, what I posted at the time was incorrect because you had spoken with both the Forest Service and the archeologist society and because you came up empty that I was mistaken. Currently you say I'm again mistaken because you have spoken to the California SOJ and have come up empty on this topic as well. You are just as wrong on this as you were on the Treasure Trove permit. Both exist and I have them in my possession.
If you would like a copy of the Permit I will be happy to email it to you as well as the Forest Service letters referencing the Treasure Trove Permit. I'm sure you already have Mr. Feldman's personal contact information so that won't be a prohibiting issue in your case.
Cubfan64
Silver Member
- Feb 13, 2006
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Matthew Roberts
Bronze Member
Cubfan64,
From what I understand from talking with the Mesa Forest Service office, a Treasure Trove Permit is not issued so someone can go fishing for treasure .
There has to be a verified actual treasure known and verifiable before the Treasure Trove Permit is issued so someone can retrieve it fully or take possession of it.
In other words, you could not go to the USFS and say, "hey, I think there's a treasure buried at the bottom of Rogers spring because I have a map and I read in somebody's notebook it's there, now give me a treasure trove permit to dig it up." The Forest Service simply would not allow that.
This is essentially what happened in 2000 when the TTP was first applied for. Four years later in 2004 the USFS relented and allowed HEAT to dig under a special use permit and if actual treasure was struck the Treasure Trove Permit would be issued at that time. The dig proceeded but no treasure was located and no Treasure Trove permit was ever issued. Thats the way things stand today as the special use permit was extended several times but finally expired.
This is the explanation I was given by the Forest Service and in conversation with my friend who was a member of that dig, that is exactly what happened.
Best to you as always,
Matthew
matthew...i wouldnt believe anything the forrest service tells you.....i'm not sure but i think jesse might be at the rendezvous....he would know
Silverchair
Jr. Member
Then use my word, Ron was issued a treasure trove permit, but had to agree to fixing the spring water pipe in return, for the wildlife .
Your both half right
SC
