The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[gollum]

Here's even more possibilities:

The DON could stand for Don Quixote! Somebody could be subtly telling you that if you follow these stone maps, you will be tilting at windmills! (I'm surprised Jose hadn't thought of that one).

My father was born in 1941, and his first name is DON! Coincidence?

Another meaning of DON is "to put on" (as in wear), but maybe somebody is "putting us on"?

Mike

 

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[gollum]

Wish there were a better picture of it!

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=gollum link=]
The DON could stand for Don Quixote! Somebody could be subtly telling you that if you follow these stone maps, you will be tilting at windmills! (I'm surprised Jose hadn't thought of that one).
Mike
*************

Hmmm el mike: and just what Do you think the meaning of "de La Mancha" Referres to? Hmmmm It is a combination of Till and Don Quijote.

Look up Till.

Till Eulenspiegle de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Not El Mike! Don Miguel!

de a mancha means "of the spot", but it actually refers to a region of Spain that has a lot of windmills.

I don't get a translation of Till. I've got one of the best translation software products there is "Systran"

Mike

 

[gord]

Not El Mike! Don Miguel!

de a mancha means "of the spot", but it actually refers to a region of Spain that has a lot of windmills.

I don't get a translation of Till. I've got one of the best translation software products there is "Systran"

Mike

Difficult to get a translation when you're starting with a bad spelling. 'Teil' in German translates as 'partly' - the rest of the handle loosely translates as 'the opposite of the wise owl'.
Gord

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi guys, close but-------

De La Mancha refers to the district where Don Quijote came from, hence, Don Quijote de La Mancha

Quijote and Quixote are interchangeable in useage and pronunciation.

Soooo, de La Mancha referrs to tilting sacred Shiboleths or beliefs.



"Till Eulenspiegle" is an accepted version of the "Germanic spelling". Till was a mythical Germanic character that loved to play tricks upon people to force them to face themselves and their failings or unshakable beliefs which may be in great error. In Gollums case, sheesh.


Combine both and you have one that loves to pick at one's sacred beliefs when they can be shown to be in error or are overbearing to others.

Incidentally go to Google, type in "Till Eulenspiegle". You will find the answer to many questions being asked in here, are the posts being monitored or saved --you will see that many of my posts in TN as "Till /Eulenspiegle are there.


So it is self evident, yes our posts are monitored and saved, etc.

Till Eulenspiegle de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=djui5 Also found this..

The literal translation of the High German name gives "owl mirror". However, the original Low German is believed to be ul'n Spegel, meaning "wipe the arse"

Wipe the Arse.....
*************
HMM Hmmmm
Till eulenspiegel de La Mancha

 

[Goldminer]

Joe, check your email.
Bill

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hi
www.till_eulenspiegle.ask.dyndns.dkl for starters

Also I was checking on Till Eulenspiegle and found 69 pages in Google of just my posts here in TN ? No secrecy any more eh?

Till Eulenspiegle

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,
Til eulenspiegel as "uln spegel"? Wipe the arse? Now I am NO expert in the various German dialects, but do have German relatives and this is NOT the origin I got from them, not even close. They said it is Saxon, (a middle Low German dialect) and refers to a "joker" or jester who played tricks on people including even the Pope back in the Medieval days. I found a similar version on the Wikipedia site, which includes that "wipe the arse" phrase:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Till_Eulenspiegel

this site dates the origin to 1300 and Brunswick, not Saxony. Hmm, a person who plays tricks on people, and add in "La Mancha" which has to refer to Don Quixote and his adventures which included "tilting at windmills" - so what I get is rather fitting for Tropical Tramp! I thought that "spiegel" meant "game" in Deutsch and that was my first clue!

Back to irritating nice folks....
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ORO you hit it right on the head, but then I expected no less. HI Mrs ORO.. hehehehhehehehh

Tropical Tramp

I suippose that "kick arse" and "wipe arse" could be used interchangably under certain circumstances, snicker..

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello my friend,
I don't even agree with that "uln spegel" version as an origin of the name - because "spegel" is pronounced "spay-gell" while spiegel is pronounced "sp - eye - gell" and eulen is not that close to "uln" either. Some of these linguistics researchers looking into the origins of words try to make connections on the slimmest of ties, in this case I think they are pretty far off.

I do agree that "wipe the arse" can be taken several ways though! (hee hee)
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=mrs.oroblanco ]
Hola, Jose!!!!
**********

HI GAl, someday we will meet, looking forward to it even IF "he" has to be present heheheheheheh Seriously, I am looking forward to meeting you both, & woffers (doggies, I have a rapport with them).

p.s. shaddup gallum!

Tropical Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

I know this thread is pretty well 'dead' but I ran across something tonight and thought I would post it.

The argument has been made that the Peraltas might have not filed claims on the mines in the Superstitions because they would lose them due to American conquest. This is not true, nor is it true that Mexicans had to swear allegiance to America in order to retain their properties. Here is the relevant text from the Treaty of Guadeloupe Hidalgo, which ended the war, quote:

ART. VIII. Mexicans now established in territories previously belonging to Mexico and which remain for the future within the limits of the United States, as defined by the present treaty, shall be free to continue where they now reside, or to remove at any time to the Mexican Republic, retaining the property which they possess in the said territories, or disposing thereof, and removing the proceeds wherever they please, without their being subjected, on this account, to any contribution, tax, or charge whatever.

Those who shall prefer to remain in the said territories, may either retain the title and rights of Mexican citizens, or acquire those of citizens of the United States. But they shall be under the obligation to make their election within one year from the date of the exchange of ratifications of this treaty; and those who shall remain in the said territories after the expiration of that year, without having declared their intention to retain the character of Mexicans shall be considered to have elected to become citizens of the United States.

In the said territories, property of every kind, now belonging to Mexicans not established there, shall be inviolably respected. The present owners, the heirs of these, and all Mexicans who may hereafter acquire said property by contract, shall enjoy with respect to it guarantees equally ample as if the same belonged to citizens of the United States.
end quote

General Kearny's army invading Arizona had strict orders as to the conduct respecting Mexicans, here are his orders from the Secretary of War, dated July 3rd, 1846, quote



‘‘Should you conquer and take possession of New Mexico and Upper California, you will establish temporary civil governments therein, abolishing all arbitrary restrictions that may exist, so far as it may be done with safety. In performing this duty, it would be wise and prudent to continue in their employment all such of the existing officers as are known to be friendly to the United States and will take the oath of allegiance to them. * * * You may assure the people of these provinces that it is the wish and design of the United States to provide for them a free government, with the least possible delay, similar to that which exists in our territories. They will be called on to exercise the rights of freemen in electing their own representatives to the territorial legislature. It is foreseen that what relates to the civil government will be a difficult and unpleasant part of your duty, and much must necessarily be left to your own discretion.

In your whole conduct, you will act in such a manner as best to conciliate the inhabitants, and render them friendly to the United States." end quote

Now some Mexicans did flee at the approach of the Americans, usually under force - as Tucson was evacuated by force of the Mexican army stationed there, who removed some 400 civilians leaving only 100 who refused to be removed. However by and large the civilians were not terribly worried about the change of governments and potential loss of property. Could the Peraltas have been worried, certainly, but this seems doubtful.

Still un-convinced about the veracity of these Peralta stones, though the heart stone does look genuine - but this could be quite un-related to anything in the Superstitions.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Hey Oro,

Never had an issue with what happened AFTER the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed (except in places like Mitchell Mining District where Hispanics weren't allowed to own mines).

The only thing I EVER said about that is that BEFORE the Treaty was signed, while we were still at war, how did ANY Mexicans in the area know how they would be treated AFTER the war? It would be impossible. Put yourself in the shoes of a Mexican Citizen finding a rich gold mine in Arizona, while Mexico was at war with the United States. Do you REALLY believe that you would think you may get to keep your mine AFTER the war if Mexico lost? Of course not! You would have to assume that if your side lost the war, then your side loses everything North of the new border.

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=mrs.oroblanco Azmula,
However, you may be confused by the old colloquial use of "don regalo" which means/meant gift (not a mineral gift but a gift), but the word "don" was not used independentally from the "regalo" in this instance. If you want to use the colloquail for mineral gift, by using "don" as part of the meaning, you would have to say "don adjetivo". The word "don" cannot be used independentally of "adjetivo", if you wish to say mineral gift.
**********
Quite correct GAL: the actual basis is DONAR = donate, give, go from there. However I expect Gollum to use DON in
reference to me.

Tropical Tramp
[/quote]

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Mike, Tropical Tramp and everyone,
Gollum wrote:
how did ANY Mexicans in the area know how they would be treated AFTER the war?

Naturally SOME would be worried that they would lose everything, yet we know from the actual reports of both sides and letters written by Mexicans living in the "invaded" areas that the fear was not that great - in fact the evacuation of Tucson was at gunpoint by the Mexican garrison, that night a large number of the residents returned and were even fired upon by American soldiers on picket duty who mistook the returning civilians for enemy soldiers. Your position that they would not have filed claims is dependent upon the discovery being made during the war - so has to be AFTER April of 1846, (first Mexican military moves, war officially started May 13th 1846) and BEFORE the treaty of Guadeloupe-Hidalgo February 2, 1848. We know that the one Peralta stone has the date "1847" so seems (on the surface) to be perfectly in keeping with this thesis.

We know that American troops entered Mexico city September 14, 1847, and the Americans expected a negotiated peace treaty shortly afterwards which did not occur. However the situation in what is today Arizona was quite different! General Stephen Kearny (also spelled Kearney) invaded what is now New Mexico in the summer of 1846, securing Santa Fe in August before continuing on. Kearny had crossed Arizona into California early December 1846; US forces entered Tucson in December right after the Mexican garrison had withdrawn.

The Mexican government of the state of Sonora did not support the Mexican national government against the Americans, using the excuse that they required all of their existing military forces to defend against the hostile Indios (mostly Apaches)! Check out this letter from Col Cooke, commander of the Mormon Battalion to the Mexican governor of Sonora:

quote
"Camp at Tucson, Sonora, Dec. 18th, 1846.

Your Excellency:—The undersigned, marching in command of a battalion of United States Infantry, from New Mexico to California, has found it convenient for the passage of his wagon train, to cross the frontier of Sonora. Having passed within fifteen miles of Fronteras, I have found it necessary to take this presidio in my route to the Gila.

Be assured that I did not come as an enemy of the people whom you represent; they have received only kindness at my hands. Sonora refused to contribute to the support of the present war against my country, alleging the excellent reasons that all her resources were necessary to her defence from the incessant attacks of savages; that the central government gave her no protection, and was, therefore, entitled to no support. To this might have been added that Mexico supports a war upon Sonora. For I have seen the New Mexicans within her boundary trading for the spoil of her people, taken by murderous, cowardly Indians, who attack only to lay waste, rob and fly to the mountains, and I have certain information that this is the practice of many years; thus one part of Mexico allies itself against another.

The unity of Sonora with the States of the north, now her neighbors, is necessary effectually to subdue these Parthian Apaches.

Meanwhile I make a wagon road from the streams of the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean, through the valuable plains, and mountains rich with minerals, of Sonora. This, I trust, will prove useful to the citizens of either republic, who, if not more closely, may unite in the pursuits of a highly beneficial commerce.

With sentiments of esteem and respect, I am your Excellency's most obedient servant,

P. St. George Cooke, Lieut.-Colonel of United States Forces, to his Excel'y Sen. Don. Manuel Gandara.

Governor of Sonora, Ures, Sonora." end quote

Now of course these attitudes of the Americans could not have been known BEFORE-hand, remember that date on the stone - 1847 which is AFTER the Americans had taken possession of the territory! So for this idea of the Peralta stones to be valid maps of lost Peralta gold mines, we have to assume that the party was in the Superstitions in 1847, while the region was under control of Americans. True, there was an uprising of Mexicans in January of '47, but the insurrection was quickly put down that very month. Does it seem logical that a party of armed Mexican prospectors-miners would go venturing into the Superstitions, passing American troop garrisons, not be noticed by the American troops who were on the watch for hostile Mexican forces (especially since they had an insurrection in January) there to be massacred by Apaches (or perhaps Yavapais?). The premise does not seem to be logical to ME anyway - especially in light of the fact that Mexican civilians had been evacuated by force and a majority returned immediately afterwards, that the American forces made it clear upon their arrival and even before (remember the letters dispatched to Mexican local authorities, I have only posted one here) that Mexican civilians would not be dispossessed of their properties, that a large, armed party of Mexican men would go un-noticed passing through American controlled territories (remember Doniphan's force had gained control of most areas to the south) only to be massacred by hostile Indios. Can you imagine forming up a party of armed men, to go off prospecting/mining into American controlled territory? To make this idea of the Peralta stones fit, that is what must have been done - and this with the Mexican authorities keeping a rather tight control over the civilians (not too effective apparently) and in the middle of a war? If the mines were discovered prior to the war, then there would have been NO reason NOT to file claims (denounce) on them, and obtain legal titles.

This large party of armed men would have to secretly slip past the Mexican military garrisons on the way north to the Superstitions, not stop and buy provisions/food/replace worn out mules, horses etc; then slip past the American troops who were also watching for any incursions by Mexican forces, and get to the mines. This idea seems to me rather un-believable. The timetable of the Mexican war makes the date on the stones suspect. If the Peralta party (which is not documented anywhere concurrently) were to attempt to go to secret mines in the Superstitions, why would they have not gone before war broke out, (in which case there is NO reason NOT to denounce mining claims) or after the war was over (and not risk being attacked/imprisoned by American forces) when they could file mining claims?

I know this subject has been beaten to death, the believers are going to continue to believe, the disbelievers continue to disbelieve and we can only argue the matter ad infinitum. For my own opinion, these stones have all the hallmarks of being a fraud, and three of them probably no older than the 1940s (personal opinion) and until someone can prove to me that Barry Storm was NOT involved, I continue to suspect his hand at work here or that of Bicknell, both known to embellish and confabulate fact with fiction concerning gold in the Superstition mountains. There is no record of the stones prior to their discovery in 1949; therefore Reavis/Peralta could not have known of them (so are by extension not guilty of creating them) as we know that Reavis DID create stone inscriptions to bolster his fraudulent land claims. We have known records of Peraltas mining and prospecting in Sonora/Arizona, and these known records show that they operated legally, filing legal claims on the mineral prospects they discovered and NOT known to act surreptitiously. The known records of Peraltas show no Peraltas living in what is now Arizona in the 1840s, of course the theory that they mounted expeditions from southern Sonora explains that away. There is no record of any large party of Mexicans that went "missing" in the period of the Mexican war, during which these Peralta stones are supposed to have been created; in fact the date on them means the Peraltas would have been operating inside of American controlled territory and had to slip past the armed forces of both sides, who are known to have had pickets/scouts watching all known routes and passes. The remains found at the massacre site were believed by two of the three men who discovered them to have been that of an unfortunate party of Pimas, the third opinion was that they were Mexicans (and by extension, Peraltas) based in large part on the finding of one skull with a gold tooth. It can be proven that Indians also obtained gold teeth, even the wildest Apaches have been documented as having taken advantage of European dentistry. I believe that the conclusion of the officer was correct, that the massacre victims were Pimas and not Mexicans. Pima Indians were not like Hollywood Indians running about half-naked with feather warbonnets etc they wore cotton and wool clothing, wide brimmed hats and sandals and would appear more like Mexicans than any Amerindians from a distance; it would be easy enough to mistake the remains of unfortunate Pimas for Mexicans.

There have been many theories as to lost mines in the Superstitions, from Jesuits to Peraltas but we find on close examination that many of the theories are not well supported with documents, archives etc or are suspect on time-lines. If any missionaries were active in the Superstitions, I would suspect Franciscans and not Jesuits, though we know that the Franciscan period was one of steady decline and gradual de-population of the whole of Pimeria Alta by the Spanish-Mexican inhabitants. The period is also one of increased raiding and conflict with Apaches, hardly one of increased prospecting activities, in fact when we examine the Mexican records of the period we find lists of mines, rancherias, even presidios being abandoned due to Indian harrassment and raids. True, there was a relatively brief flurry of prospecting and mining activity shortly after the Jesuits left 1767, but this activity was concentrated south and west of Tucson, (Ciengeguilla placers, Planchas de Plata silver etc) not north in the Superstitions which area was very much under Apache control. A problem exists today in that there were literally dozens and dozens of prospect pits, shafts sunk, and tunnel drifts dug out in the period AFTER the death of Jacob Waltz 1891, virtually all of which were later abandoned when it was discovered that these prospects were virtually worthless; US records of gold production show not a single ounce recovered in the Superstitions from the death of Waltz til record keeping ended 1960s, which tells you just how much gold was produced from the many prospects on Black Mesa - none worth reporting. (Recall that all gold produced was supposed to be reported.) These old prospects are frequently "discovered" today by explorers in the Superstitions, who then assume these must be the old Peralta mines when they were in reality hardly mines, let alone owned or operated by Peraltas. It is actually an insult to the old Dutchman to imply that the only way he could have obtained a rich gold mine was to have stolen it from, or murdered Peraltas, when we know that Waltz was in fact an experienced prospector who had worked in the gold fields of California and in the Bradshaws in Arizona before exploring in the Superstitions, and that Waltz had a portable drywasher built that he carried into the mountains prior to his discovery. Even the simple numbers involved are a factor in deciding the veracity - for the Peralta lost gold mines are supposed to number from eight to 18, while with Waltz it is a single lost mine. It makes more sense that so many thousands of people have searched for a single lost mine without success than if the same number poring over the Superstitions had entirely failed to locate even ONE of EIGHT, much less eighteen. We have no records of any Peraltas selling or trading any gold in the 1840s, (remember that "royal fifth" tax, well after independence the Mexican government didn't stop taxing!) while we DO have records of Waltz trading and shipping gold. In conclusion, it is my considered opinion that when we talk about Jacob Waltz and a single lost gold mine, we are talking about a real lost mine, but when we turn to legendary Peralta mines in the Superstitions and the accompanying stone "maps" we are talking fiction. One of the stones, the "heart" stone, has the correct appearance of being ancient, but there is no reason to connect this stone to anything in the Superstitions, it may not even be related to anything in the United States for that matter. I will go even farther out onto the limb and say that the heart stone probably does not relate to anything in the Superstitions whatsoever! If someone wishes to use those stones as "maps" I wish them all the luck, hope they have fun and I would sure be happy to eat my words, but I have no confidence they will find anything through the use of the stones other than good exercise in some of the prettiest (and a tad dangerous) country in the whole of the USA. The tale of Peralta secret lost gold mines, stone maps and massacres are great for telling around the campfire, but not worthy of pursuing as real leads to real lost mines IMHO.

Thanks for your time, and I hope you all have a great day!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO Mrs ORO BLANCO"S hubby; I still place my stack of $50 chips on Reaves and a subtle verification plan gone wrong.

If it had been Storm, he would have made sure that they were found in time to benefit from them. Two years and two trips to recover them by another man who "apparently" was NOT connected with our author Storm - the finder's subsequent actions of searchng for it himself tend to verify that Storm was not involved?

Incidentally, two years passing between the original findings and the second tends to enforce my belief that Storm was not involvd since it would have been to his interest to make sure that they were found and publicized. He would have known shortly that they had been found by another and so would accelerate his plan by substituting the stones with another type of proof, or even more stones.. Sabe.

EL SANTITO Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

Hey Oro, Mrs Oro, Vieja Tayopa, and Randy (WHEW),

As of now, the ONLY keeping me from stating that I believe the stones to be authentic te=reasure maps, is the possibility of them being made for the Reavis land Grant Fraud Scheme.

Tayopa,

I'll say this again, the stones were found all at the same time, in the same hole. They were not found over a period of two years. There does seem to be some historical thought as to just where the stones wre found, though! It is absolutely possible that Tumlinson's Father got the stones from a man who stole them from a Mission is Arizpe. Tumlinson was on his way back to Oregon after visiting his father in Texas, when he found the stones.

Oro,

You place a lot of confidence in the knowledge and common sense of the Mexicans in the mid 1800s! Let's talk about the modern Mexicans, for a second. They believe that Americans are shooting and killing illegals crossing the border. They think that the Minute Men are American vigilantes, who hate Mexicans, are racists, and will shoot Illegals on sight! Why do they think that? Propaganda! Do you think that the Mexicans weren't propagandized in the 1800s? You seem to think that the only tensions between Mexico and the US were during the course of the war. You couldn't be further from the truth. Things started going downhill since the Texans started talking about independence from Mexico in the early 1830s. Then, things got worse when Texas won it's independence from Mexico in 1836. Things progressively got worse until the US started publicly using the term "Manifest Destiny" in the mid 1840s. If you were a Mexican Citizen, in the territory, and heard the term "Manifest Destiny", and somebody explained exactly what it meant, do you REALLY think they believed that they would keep their holdings after a war. NO WAY!

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello friends,

Mexicans believing they would be disabused of their properties? Undoubtedly, some Mexicans had fears along those lines. Remember though that the war with Mexico was over Texas becoming a state, not over NM,AZ; those American troops who occupied Tucson and points south were later withdrawn - so no I don't believe that ALL Mexicans were in a panic that they were about to have their belongings seized! If you doubt it, look it up - the Mexican population of Tucson, on the approach of the American troops, were evacuated at gunpoint by the Mexican garrison! They were so NOT worried that they had to be forced to evacuate! Even then, the very night that the American troops arrived, MOST of the population returned! Even after they were accidentally fired on! Does that sound like they were horrified that they were about to lose properties? No, sorry but the whole Peralta tale just doesn't ring true for me, including the stones. Maybe if the stones had not all been found in one spot, or there was some record of them existing in the 1840s or 50s or any time up to but still BEFORE the death of Waltz, but no we just don't have any record of them. If Reavis made them, why on earth wouldn't he have produced them to bolster his ridiculous claims? Especially since we know that he DID make fake stone incriptions and DID produce them to bolster his claims. No, Reavis didn't make them, in fact how could he have even known of their existence? Prove this statement wrong; "There is no record of the existence of the Peralta stones prior to their discovery in 1949". Doesn't that sour the milk for you Mike? Your position that the only way they could be fakes is if Reavis made them (or had them made) guarantees that you cannot find them to be fakes since Reavis not only didn't make them but he couldn't have known they existed. That doesn't make them genuine!

I know I went over the many points of logic in this tale before, which is why I won't bore you with more repetition, but with all the factors weighed Mike, you really feel they are more likely genuine than fraudulent? I don't know buddy, we've argued many different factors involved, to me they seem more likely spurious. Remember that the folks who found them in the first place, did use them to search in the Superstitions and found....zip. Three of the four stones don't look that old; the stones were cleaned before the 'experts' examined them and 'pronounced' the estimated age; yikes I just said I wouldn't go back over this and did it anyway! I have this danged curiosity of just why you are nearly convinced, in the face of so many points of ill-logic in the whole tale?

My apologies too, wasn't trying to bait you into arguing it further (until some more evidence turns up) I was summing up my own personal view of them. If anyone is having fun pursuing these stones as maps or clues to some kind of treasure, more power to them! I would not care to stop anyone having harmless fun. If someone ends up dead from using these stones to hunt for treasures, then I will be offended - otherwise, they are neat and interesting, whether they lead to treasures or not!

Oroblanco