The Two Soldiers

[markmar]

That's funny . From now, we should to keep records from the last day/night of our life , which would describe who was there and what we have talking about . Keep anyone such records of their ancestors ?

The irony is how the first journalists/researchers on the LDM , never found and related something odd in the Waltz last night and the candle box. Even after Brownie made public the Waltz deathbed confession in 1931 .For about five generation all were OK .
Now is the generation of " Make your own theory/story because don't exist records " . What more easy ? The best Brains of the 21 century are coming along ! Take care ! All the people have to keep records of their daily activities with all the dialogues , and after their death to make them public by donating to a Library . A new sector at the Library called " No more secrets , we are all a family ".
And if this is not enough , or something is odd and hard to believe it , the first descendant have to do an affidavit , something like Brownie Holmes did .

 

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[cactusjumper]

That's funny . From now, we should to keep records from the last day/night of our life , which would describes who was there and what we have talking about . Keep anyone such records of their ancestors ?

The irony is how the first journalists/researchers on the LDM , never found and related something odd in the Waltz last night and the candle box. Even after Brownie made public the Waltz deathbed confession in 1931 .For about five generation all were OK .
Now is the generation of " Make your own theory/story because don't exist records " . What more easy ? The best Brains of the 21 century are coming along ! Take care ! All the people have to keep records of their daily activities with all the dialogues , and after their death to make them public by donating to a Library . A new sector at the Library called " No more secrets , we are all a family ".
And if this is not enough , or something is odd and hard to believe it , the first descendant have to do an affidavit , something like Brownie Holmes did .

Marius,

That's a nice spin on what has been written. It was many years after the time of the events that Alkire donated his letters and manuscripts to the Historical Society. While the collection was known, it was not something that was studied by people who were researching the LDM, because there was nothing in it that was of importance. It only became an important collection after more recent writers were told the fictitious story and included it in their books.

It's obvious that you haven't read the information that is available, so you are at a decided disadvantage in this conversation. "Records" do exist. This is the first time they have been publically exposed.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

Joe

And ,why Alkire to been obligated to write in his business letters or the other about Waltz ? If he was at home and told about Waltz to his wife and after to a good friend or even to the saloon bar , was this a subject to be written on paper ? Maybe the Waltz's subject was not so important for all the people/businessmen of that time . Maybe would be important for Alkire if he would been a LDM hunter .

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Joe

And ,why Alkire to been obligated to write in his business letters or the other about Waltz ? If he was at home and told about Waltz to his wife and after to a good friend or even to the saloon bar , was this a subject to be written on paper ? Maybe the Waltz's subject was not so important for all the people/businessmen of that time . Maybe would be important for Alkire if he would been a LDM hunter .

Hello Marius,

The RJ Allen account in his 1960's book, the Frank Alkire papers and the whole story has been blown far out of proportion in past years. So much misinformation has been posted it's hard to get a handle on the actual events.
Here is something that might help you understand the history and the events a little better.

The story of Julia Thomas “selling tickets” to spend a few minutes with Jacob Waltz the night he died, and members of the Alkire family being present is not a new story. It has been around for at least 60 years and probably much longer.
Robert Joseph Allen wrote a version of the account, including Alkire in his published book in the 1960’s. Frank Alkire and the entire Alkire family were alive and living in Phoenix and Pomona, Ca. while Allen was researching and writing his book. If any of the Alkire’s would have had any comments or concerns about the account they would have surely voiced them at that time, or in the years following. However, the Alkire family has never questioned or denied Allen’s account.

Does that mean the Alkire account in RJ Allen’s book is historically factual? Of course it doesn’t, it merely means Allen related a story he was given the way he heard it. In that context it is a true accounting of the way RJ Allen heard the story.
I have never believed the story as Allen wrote it, was a factual account. I do believe however there were bits and pieces of truth in the accounting.

Frank Alkire donated a portion of his (Frank Tomlin Alkire Collection) to Edith Kitt at the Arizona Historical Society (AHS). That collection is free to anyone who desires to read through it. But the collection stops in early 1950’s. Frank Alkire lived for another decade and continued to write and add to his collection and the years 1953-1963 have yet to be donated to the AHS. I believe the rest of Alkire’s collection will be donated sometime in the future as Alma Alkire who was the custodian of the Alkire family recently passed away.

RJ Allen had to get the account he wrote about from somewhere. He either got the account directly from Alkire or from an earlier printing of the account. The Arizona Gleam published a somewhat similar account in the 1930’s.
Here is a partial list of authors and writers who have listed Frank Alkire as a source for Lost Dutchman related stories and accounts they wrote about either in the pages of their books or in their personal papers;
RJ Allen, S.Ely, CF Higham, B. Barnard, M. Rose, O. Arnold, RE Lee, JT Climenson, R. Blair WI Lively.

It is a fact that Frank Alkire was a source of LDM stories and accounts during his lifetime as at least several authors quoted or mentioned him in their work and personal papers. But the curious thing is that in the FT Alkire collection at the AHS there is no mention whatsoever of any LDM story, account or tale.

What could be the reason for the discrepancy?

One reason and the more obvious one would be his collection at AZH stops at 1953 and anything he may have collected concerning the LDM is still with the family.
But the most compelling reason is the stigma in earlier years attached to anyone who even showed the slightest inclination to believing in the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine Legend.
Frank Alkire was a very prominent citizen who had been on the Board of the Salt River Valley Water Users Association, he was a Director of the Valley Bank, ran a Dry Goods, Grocery and Land Sales business in Phoenix and Maricopa County. When he donated the things to the AHS in 1953 he was still on the Board of the Valley Bank and the Board of Directors of St. Joseph’s Hospital. At one time Alkire expressed desire to run for Phoenix city council.
Alkire’s omission of LDM material in his earlier donation to AHS is most probably due (in my opinion) to him not wanting this stigma attached to him. None of us today can imagine, or take seriously enough what that stigma meant or was like to those who lived in that era. Even today there is still a certain stigma attached to LDM belief.

Just because there is no mention of LDM stories in the FT Alkire collection at the AHS does not mean FT Alkire never wrote, collected or told accounts of the LDM. It merely means there is nothing in the collection ending with 1953. Anything beyond that is an erroneous assumption.

As I said previously, I do not believe the RJ Allen story as it is written. And I never believed the account as it appears in the TE Glover book, Golden Dreams. Nor do I believe the accounts as written in the H. Corbin book, Bible on Jacob Waltz and the LDM. But I do believe there are some bits and pieces of those accounts which are true.

Matthew

 

[markmar]

Thank you Matthew for your input .

It was very substantially and shows the reasons that made Frank Alkire to didn't mention anything about LDM in his paper work . Also shows the difference between a historically factual source and a trusted source .

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Marius,

The RJ Allen account in his 1960's book, the Frank Alkire papers and the whole story has been blown far out of proportion in past years. So much misinformation has been posted it's hard to get a handle on the actual events.
Here is something that might help you understand the history and the events a little better.

The story of Julia Thomas “selling tickets” to spend a few minutes with Jacob Waltz the night he died, and members of the Alkire family being present is not a new story. It has been around for at least 60 years and probably much longer.
Robert Joseph Allen wrote a version of the account, including Alkire in his published book in the 1960’s. Frank Alkire and the entire Alkire family were alive and living in Phoenix and Pomona, Ca. while Allen was researching and writing his book. If any of the Alkire’s would have had any comments or concerns about the account they would have surely voiced them at that time, or in the years following. However, the Alkire family has never questioned or denied Allen’s account.

Does that mean the Alkire account in RJ Allen’s book is historically factual? Of course it doesn’t, it merely means Allen related a story he was given the way he heard it. In that context it is a true accounting of the way RJ Allen heard the story.
I have never believed the story as Allen wrote it, was a factual account. I do believe however there were bits and pieces of truth in the accounting.

Frank Alkire donated a portion of his (Frank Tomlin Alkire Collection) to Edith Kitt at the Arizona Historical Society (AHS). That collection is free to anyone who desires to read through it. But the collection stops in early 1950’s. Frank Alkire lived for another decade and continued to write and add to his collection and the years 1953-1963 have yet to be donated to the AHS. I believe the rest of Alkire’s collection will be donated sometime in the future as Alma Alkire who was the custodian of the Alkire family recently passed away.

RJ Allen had to get the account he wrote about from somewhere. He either got the account directly from Alkire or from an earlier printing of the account. The Arizona Gleam published a somewhat similar account in the 1930’s.
Here is a partial list of authors and writers who have listed Frank Alkire as a source for Lost Dutchman related stories and accounts they wrote about either in the pages of their books or in their personal papers;
RJ Allen, S.Ely, CF Higham, B. Barnard, M. Rose, O. Arnold, RE Lee, JT Climenson, R. Blair WI Lively.

It is a fact that Frank Alkire was a source of LDM stories and accounts during his lifetime as at least several authors quoted or mentioned him in their work and personal papers. But the curious thing is that in the FT Alkire collection at the AHS there is no mention whatsoever of any LDM story, account or tale.

What could be the reason for the discrepancy?

One reason and the more obvious one would be his collection at AZH stops at 1953 and anything he may have collected concerning the LDM is still with the family.
But the most compelling reason is the stigma in earlier years attached to anyone who even showed the slightest inclination to believing in the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine Legend.
Frank Alkire was a very prominent citizen who had been on the Board of the Salt River Valley Water Users Association, he was a Director of the Valley Bank, ran a Dry Goods, Grocery and Land Sales business in Phoenix and Maricopa County. When he donated the things to the AHS in 1953 he was still on the Board of the Valley Bank and the Board of Directors of St. Joseph’s Hospital. At one time Alkire expressed desire to run for Phoenix city council.
Alkire’s omission of LDM material in his earlier donation to AHS is most probably due (in my opinion) to him not wanting this stigma attached to him. None of us today can imagine, or take seriously enough what that stigma meant or was like to those who lived in that era. Even today there is still a certain stigma attached to LDM belief.

Just because there is no mention of LDM stories in the FT Alkire collection at the AHS does not mean FT Alkire never wrote, collected or told accounts of the LDM. It merely means there is nothing in the collection ending with 1953. Anything beyond that is an erroneous assumption.

As I said previously, I do not believe the RJ Allen story as it is written. And I never believed the account as it appears in the TE Glover book, Golden Dreams. Nor do I believe the accounts as written in the H. Corbin book, Bible on Jacob Waltz and the LDM. But I do believe there are some bits and pieces of those accounts which are true.

Matthew

Matthew,

I once asked if anyone had seen the story written in Frank Alkire's handwriting. Do you recall your reply?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar, amigo, you are ignoring the mountain of evidence that Alkire was no where near Jacob Waltz when the flood hit, nor when Waltz died. That mountain of evidence didn't appear magically out of thin air or someone setting behind a keyboard saying "I think so" or geez, that fits what I think so I'll buy into it.

It took months of unbiased tedious investigation to boil down all the known events in both Waltz life (and death) and Alkire's life to be able to bring their timeline to the table for you to judge. Couple that with Joe's considerable work in reading, line by line, Alkire's papers, a stack of single sheets three feet tall, looking for any mention of ANY of the players names in Alkire considerable writings. There are none.

Alkire had a job to do, a ranch to run, cattle to brand and sell and October was the time when it was done. His family had already been hoodwinked by being an absentee rancher owner. Do you really think he would be lollygagging around Julia's doorstep while other ranchers sorted his cattle?? Those cattle meant his earning for the year and what would take him and his new family through the winter. He wasn't standing outside Julia's house (yes, house) waiting to pay 50 cents to get his turn to hear a dying man's delirium. Only a fool would do that, and Alkire was no man's fool.

Those are facts, real facts. Not wishful thinking or campfire stories for wide-eyed little children.

What part of "you have been had, again" and by the same set of culprits are you not understanding? Dr. Glover and Mr. Corbin caught on quick. Get up to speed on what really was going on and you will see the shear lunacy of this story.

Amiga Lynda,

I simply asked Hal how he can call Jim Bark's quote a fact that Holmes was not present when Waltz died, when others like Alkire said that he was. One can not judge either without having known them.

Please show me where I claim to believe all of the Alkire story. The part that I truly believe is that Holmes was present when Waltz passed away. There is more evidence of this than the so called mountain of evidence based on just an assumption.

Both you and Joe are confusing what Allen wrote concerning the so called sale of tickets of Waltz's death. That event whether true or not (Julia was a buissness woman, she did sell maps), took place months before he died. He rallied after that, and hung on until October.

The whole research by the same culprits is filled with words like seems, appears, likely, unlikely, suspect, may, might, doubt, possible, could, etc. The October round-up, there is nothing stating for a fact that Alkire was at any round-up, it is just an assumption that fits nicely. Others are mentioned headed to different round-ups, not Alkire. So using the same mentality that Alkire never met Waltz because he never wrote about it, we can also say Alkire was not at a round-up at the time of Waltz's death because it is not written.

But I don't use that mentality, and acknowledge that Alkire may have been working cattle around that time, but as he mentioned some times he would be gone for one week or more, even though the whole thing lasted about six weeks, he was not at it for the whole six weeks like the hired hands. The fall round-ups are when cattle are taken to market, and since it took three to make a shadow, many were not going to last the harsh winter. Being an owner, not a hired hand, Alkire would be the one going to market in town, or going for supplies, or payroll. So it is very possible that he was in town when Waltz passed away.

Homar

 

[azdave35]

lol...the only thing i'm convinced of is nobody really knows for sure if anyone was with waltz when he died

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

Anything is "possible", but there is considerable evidence, as Lynda has written, that Alkire was elsewhere when Waltz was dying. It's also "possible" the Easter Bunny is real, but only in the minds of uninformed children. You would need to read the evidence that is available to form an educated opinion of the truth of the Frank Alkire story. If the only LDM book you have ever felt the need to read was Robert Joseph Allen's, you have all the "facts" you can handle.

Take care,

Joe

Howdy Joe,

You leave the Easter Bunny alone, don't you dare start a tread to go after him.

I really don't care to read Robert Allen's book, I was just wondering what you had against Alkire's story. LDM hunters are divided into two camps, and you just seem to be a die-hard Julia/Rhiney follower. You too take care.

Homar

 

[azdave35]

Howdy Joe,

You leave the Easter Bunny alone, don't you dare start a tread to go after him.

I really don't care to read Robert Allen's book, I was just wondering what you had against Alkire's story. LDM hunters are divided into two camps, and you just seem to be a die-hard Julia/Rhiney follower. You too take care.

Homar

homar...julia and rhiney are the only ones that we know for sure ever talked to waltz....holmes..roberts and the rest are all speculation

 

[Old]

Oh my. We are going to just have to agree to disagree on this one.

So far as stigma attached to the mine, itself..........I dunno bout that. Could be, but it seems its more of the reverse. Certainly there were some unseemly folks along the way that were associated with the hunt. But; I don't think the mine per se was a taboo subject. Seems to me every man, woman, and their pet cat of the time had something to say about their personal involvement with all things Dutchman. Its sorting through BS to get to the true nuggets of truth that present more of an issue.

 

[TEGlover]

Gentlemen,

I do not follow the treasurenet.com/forum with any regularity. We have a great deal on our plates these days – executors of a will, finishing my last book on the Dutchman (this one draws to a close the trilogy), still moving into our home, landscaping, etc., etc. However, this evening I tuned in to the Two Soldiers thread from my iPad while watching a rerun of the Dick Van Dick Show.

I was taken back by the following in a recent post:

“As I said previously, I do not believe the RJ Allen story as it is written. And I never believed the account as it appears in the TE Glover book, Golden Dreams. Nor do I believe the accounts as written in the H. Corbin book, Bible on Jacob Waltz and the LDM. But I do believe there are some bits and pieces of those accounts which are true.”

The source for the Alkire account which I put in my book “Golden Dreams” came from a (once) trusted source. It hurts now that that very source apparently disavows their involvement and turns on a person who trusted them.

It is my understanding that Helen Corbin’s source was the same as mine. I will have to check her collection — notes and documentation (emails, letters, etc.).

We are all vulnerable to our sources. All I can proffer is be cautious. Use primary data if available. And realize that even when a source is trying to be truthful there can be pitfalls.

And don’t despair, the truth is out there.

Happy hunting to all, and to all good fortune and good health!

T. E. Glover

PS: RE: Allen’s book one might want to check out Doug Stewart’s website devoted to the literature for this genre.

 

[audigger53]

I have a question. Where did Waltz work in Phoenix to get his grubstakes to go to his mine? Did he sell off gold to buy his supplies? In other words what did he live off? He had to buy supplies. Where did the money come from? Did he have a bank account? I don't think he did, so where did his day to day living expense money come from? I have to work and save money for my trips. Did he do odd jobs to make his living money as well as grubstake money? I don't think anyone has addressed this that I know of. If so just tell me and I'll go read them. Thanks in advance, audigger53

 

[sailaway]

How many of you that are 70-80 (age JW was) are working to support your living day to day? How many that are over 70 want to walk into the wilderness to break rocks to haul it out? Even if you are in good shape, I do not think anyone that age could now make it in there with supplies necessary to do such work. I have attempted to go into the wilderness several times with an older man that age and never made it to the destination we had set, even using pack animal. Yet here we have a story of such a man in the center of a remote area doing just that?

Those of you that want to argue over who was present at the deathbed need to read the interviews of Brownie before continuing. I am not stating it is Gospel but a read that none of the authors that wrote about the deathbed used, or quoted.

What we do have for an idea of income is a mention of a news paper clipping of a Dutchman shipping over 200 pounds gold ore each time to California from Hewitt Station three times, two years apart on each shipment.

 

[Old]

Au,

Waltz had retired for all practical purposes by the time he made his home in Phoenix. In his prospector days he had discovered (either alone or in concert with others) several mines in the Bradshaw area. He sold his interest in those mines to operators and moved on to prospect new areas. How much of the profits he saved from those sales I do not know.

In Phoenix he homesteaded a 160 acre farm. He sold eggs and other produce. It is said that's how he first met and befriended Julia Thomas, a baker, through his egg sales.

The census records of the time indicate there were multiple individuals living on Waltz' homestead. Whether they were tenants, sharecroppers, or freeloaders. I do not know. If tenants or sharecroppers that would be another source of income.

Lastly, Waltz had made a financial agreement with Starrar, a neighbor, to take care of his living needs for the duration of his life in exchange for the rights to his homestead and personal goods upon his death. Starrar predeceased Waltz but was survived by a brother who "may" have continued providing daily needs. That deal seems to have soured over the years and its unknown to me (and doubtful) if Waltz ever received anything from it.

Then, of course, there are stories of pouches and stashes of gold nuggets and dust. Either saved from his prospector days or the fruits of the Lost Dutchman mine of legend. Take your pick on that, that's why we are here <g>.

Lynda

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

I do not follow the treasurenet.com/forum with any regularity. We have a great deal on our plates these days – executors of a will, finishing my last book on the Dutchman (this one draws to a close the trilogy), still moving into our home, landscaping, etc., etc. However, this evening I tuned in to the Two Soldiers thread from my iPad while watching a rerun of the Dick Van Dick Show.

I was taken back by the following in a recent post:

“As I said previously, I do not believe the RJ Allen story as it is written. And I never believed the account as it appears in the TE Glover book, Golden Dreams. Nor do I believe the accounts as written in the H. Corbin book, Bible on Jacob Waltz and the LDM. But I do believe there are some bits and pieces of those accounts which are true.”

The source for the Alkire account which I put in my book “Golden Dreams” came from a (once) trusted source. It hurts now that that very source apparently disavows their involvement and turns on a person who trusted them.

It is my understanding that Helen Corbin’s source was the same as mine. I will have to check her collection — notes and documentation (emails, letters, etc.).

We are all vulnerable to our sources. All I can proffer is be cautious. Use primary data if available. And realize that even when a source is trying to be truthful there can be pitfalls.

And don’t despair, the truth is out there.

Happy hunting to all, and to all good fortune and good health!

T. E. Glover

PS: RE: Allen’s book one might want to check out Doug Stewart’s website devoted to the literature for this genre.

Thomas,

Trust all is well at the Glover Homestead.

Couldn't agree with your post more. It's spot on.

I have one taped interview with Brownie, done by Tom K. Someone has stated that there were a number of others. Have you seen them? Matthew made this statement:


"It is a fact that Frank Alkire was a source of LDM stories and accounts during his lifetime as at least several authors quoted or mentioned him in their work and personal papers. But the curious thing is that in the FT Alkire collection at the AHS there is no mention whatsoever of any LDM story, account or tale."

In the Alkire Collection, I never saw a single comment on the LDM or Jacob Waltz. Julia Thomas was never mentioned. I was hoping to find something related to Waltz, so it was disappointing to find nothing. Frank Alkire wrote a lot about his life in Arizona, in minute detail. It's difficult to believe he wrote nothing about Waltz and the LDM. In1931, the LDM was front page news across the United States. You would think, if Alkire had any knowledge about the legend, he would have written about it.

If anyone wonders about your, and Helen Corbin's source for much of what has been written, they should sit down and talk with Bob Corbin for awhile. All of us believed that source for a number of years. I still wish him well, but will never join those who still believe his tales.

See you soon.

Take care,

Joe

 

[audigger53]

How many of you that are 70-80 (age JW was) are working to support your living day to day? How many that are over 70 want to walk into the wilderness to break rocks to haul it out? Even if you are in good shape, I do not think anyone that age could now make it in there with supplies necessary to do such work. I have attempted to go into the wilderness several times with an older man that age and never made it to the destination we had set, even using pack animal. Yet here we have a story of such a man in the center of a remote area doing just that?

Actually I'm 71 and going out this Oct again to try and find mine. Of course the area is not the Supes, but the Hachucas.
I tried twice with men younger than me and they "pooped out on me". Of course that was over 10 years ago. It depends on the person's health and body strength.

What we do have for an idea of income is a mention of a news paper clipping of a Dutchman shipping over 200 pounds gold ore each time to California from Hewitt Station three times, two years apart on each shipment.

No name of the Dutchman? 200 LBs of gold ore at 50% gold would have been $9,000 each time. Even $27,000 would have been rich. Where did the money go? Top pay for a cowboy was $30 a month. If the value of the gold was more, then it would have been even more money. Where did it go? Waltz didn't have it.

 

[Hal Croves]

Amiga Lynda,

I simply asked Hal how he can call Jim Bark's quote a fact that Holmes was not present when Waltz died, when others like Alkire said that he was. One can not judge either without having known them.

Please show me where I claim to believe all of the Alkire story. The part that I truly believe is that Holmes was present when Waltz passed away. There is more evidence of this than the so called mountain of evidence based on just an assumption.

Both you and Joe are confusing what Allen wrote concerning the so called sale of tickets of Waltz's death. That event whether true or not (Julia was a buissness woman, she did sell maps), took place months before he died. He rallied after that, and hung on until October.

The whole research by the same culprits is filled with words like seems, appears, likely, unlikely, suspect, may, might, doubt, possible, could, etc. The October round-up, there is nothing stating for a fact that Alkire was at any round-up, it is just an assumption that fits nicely. Others are mentioned headed to different round-ups, not Alkire. So using the same mentality that Alkire never met Waltz because he never wrote about it, we can also say Alkire was not at a round-up at the time of Waltz's death because it is not written.

But I don't use that mentality, and acknowledge that Alkire may have been working cattle around that time, but as he mentioned some times he would be gone for one week or more, even though the whole thing lasted about six weeks, he was not at it for the whole six weeks like the hired hands. The fall round-ups are when cattle are taken to market, and since it took three to make a shadow, many were not going to last the harsh winter. Being an owner, not a hired hand, Alkire would be the one going to market in town, or going for supplies, or payroll. So it is very possible that he was in town when Waltz passed away.

Homar

The problem for me is that so much rest on the idea of Holmes being at Waltz's side when he died.
So much rests on Brownies credibility because, despite denying authorship of the Holmes Manuscript, Brownie does own the Deathbed Confession story.

"Jacob Walz “the Dutchman,” made a death-bed confession in which he admitted killing six men to capture and retain the mine. George Holmes, 133 West Almeria Street, told a Gazette reporter."

Phoenix Gazette 18 July, 1931
​

Why don't I find Brownie credible?

1. Brownie denied the charge of selling alcohol when arrested and tried. In the end, Brownie was found guilty and sentenced to six months. He thanked the Judge and said that he felt the ruling was fair. An honest mans words?
2. Brownie claimed that he was "joy-riding" when rolled by Kate Landis, a well known prostitute. An honest husbands words?
3. Brownie claimed exemption from the draft based on hardship. It was denied. The appeal of an honest man?
4. Read this: "Walz, according to the Gazette’s informant; made his confession to Mr. Holmes’ father, J. R. Holmes, native Arizona pioneer and famous packer for troops during the Indian campaigns, who died here two months ago." And this: "During the early territorial days he was known as one of the most able of all packers who accompanied soldiers in pursuit of hostile Indians."
5. Now, compare Brownies info to this to AZR interview with Dick in 1921 - "although struggling Indian bands were making invasion in the vicinity of Prescott during the time that Mr. Holmes was in his teens, he does not boast of any fights with the redskins. "The last marauding band that I remember crossed the Verde early in the 80's, killed several people in Pleasant Valley and were freighted out of that section by the government soldiers. I do not remember any warring Indians coming west of the Verde after that." Brownie was simply not telling the truth.
6. Here is the source of the Onyx mine ownership confusion which, is also the foundation of your argument: "Three items appeared in the Phoenix papers reporting Holmes' return to Phoenix from his onyx mines in the Cave Creek District. Two papers, the Phoenix Daily Herald on the 28th, and the Arizona Republic on the 29th, reported it was Dick Holmes who returned, while the third paper, the Arizona Daily Gazette, also on the 29th, reported that it was R. J. (Richard) Holmes (Sr.)". - TE Glover
7. Bark's letter confirms the above newspaper reports that contradict Brownies story. "The elder Holmes, his son says, was the only person with Walz when the old Dutchman died at his home is south Phoenix in the winter of 1891-92."
8. Brownie confirms that Bark could have witnessed his father crushing the ore from under Waltz's bed.
9. While Brownie denies writing the manuscript, TE Glover has demonstrated that this is not true.

Brownie was either a liar or, Dick lied to Brownie.
Based on Dick's popularity with his clients and reputation as a honest salesman, I would have to say that Brownie is just not credible.

"In all the talks I had with Mrs. Thomas and Herman Petrie, no mention was ever made of anybody by the name of Holmes..."

JK McCarthy



​

What reason, (evidence) is there to believe Brownie?

 

[sailaway]

The news paper article was titled 40 Years ago Today and information came from the collection at the Superstition Mountain Historical Society Archives. There was no mention of destination other than California via Hewitt Station and that the Dutchman was known to the station employees there. It also stated that the best samples were taken off at Casa Grande. The last shipment made the Dutchman hopped on the stage leaving his animals and gear never to be seen again by the employees at Hewitt Station. No name except a Dutchman was given in the article.
Was it JW? who knows unless those shipment records can be tracked down in California. Who was the payee? unknown at this time.
Did JW have debts to pay in California where he started his gold search? Did he have a partner out there who handled the transactions?
Records may be in California that can lead to a trail back to this article. What was the route between Casa Grande and California?
Was it the stage route that leads through Anza Borrego Canyon?
How much money did Waltz spend defending himself from eviction from the land he had claimed? For those that do not know the land he claimed was actually land set aside for the school district prior to his filing homestead.
Hal your mind is made up that Brownie could not help himself and everything he said was a lie. that is up to you to make that decision. Read the interviews and who conducted them. Maybe why people on here that you all know and hold in high regard, who were involved in the interviews do not talk of the book because of controversy.
attached photo evidence is enough for me to believe the deathbed story in the interviews.

 

[coazon de oro]

The problem for me is that so much rest on the idea of Holmes being at Waltz's side when he died.
So much rests on Brownies credibility because, despite denying authorship of the Holmes Manuscript, Brownie does own the Deathbed Confession story.

"Jacob Walz “the Dutchman,” made a death-bed confession in which he admitted killing six men to capture and retain the mine. George Holmes, 133 West Almeria Street, told a Gazette reporter."

Phoenix Gazette 18 July, 1931
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Why don't I find Brownie credible?

1. Brownie denied the charge of selling alcohol when arrested and tried. In the end, Brownie was found guilty and sentenced to six months. He thanked the Judge and said that he felt the ruling was fair. An honest mans words?
2. Brownie claimed that he was "joy-riding" when rolled by Kate Landis, a well known prostitute. An honest husbands words?
3. Brownie claimed exemption from the draft based on hardship. It was denied. The appeal of an honest man?
4. Read this: "Walz, according to the Gazette’s informant; made his confession to Mr. Holmes’ father, J. R. Holmes, native Arizona pioneer and famous packer for troops during the Indian campaigns, who died here two months ago." And this: "During the early territorial days he was known as one of the most able of all packers who accompanied soldiers in pursuit of hostile Indians."
5. Now, compare Brownies info to this to AZR interview with Dick in 1921 - "although struggling Indian bands were making invasion in the vicinity of Prescott during the time that Mr. Holmes was in his teens, he does not boast of any fights with the redskins. "The last marauding band that I remember crossed the Verde early in the 80's, killed several people in Pleasant Valley and were freighted out of that section by the government soldiers. I do not remember any warring Indians coming west of the Verde after that." Brownie was simply not telling the truth.
6. Here is the source of the Onyx mine ownership confusion which, is also the foundation of your argument: "Three items appeared in the Phoenix papers reporting Holmes' return to Phoenix from his onyx mines in the Cave Creek District. Two papers, the Phoenix Daily Herald on the 28th, and the Arizona Republic on the 29th, reported it was Dick Holmes who returned, while the third paper, the Arizona Daily Gazette, also on the 29th, reported that it was R. J. (Richard) Holmes (Sr.)". - TE Glover
7. Bark's letter confirms the above newspaper reports that contradict Brownies story. "The elder Holmes, his son says, was the only person with Walz when the old Dutchman died at his home is south Phoenix in the winter of 1891-92."
8. Brownie confirms that Bark could have witnessed his father crushing the ore from under Waltz's bed.
9. While Brownie denies writing the manuscript, TE Glover has demonstrated that this is not true.

Brownie was either a liar or, Dick lied to Brownie.
Based on Dick's popularity with his clients and reputation as a honest salesman, I would have to say that Brownie is just not credible.

"In all the talks I had with Mrs. Thomas and Herman Petrie, no mention was ever made of anybody by the name of Holmes..."

JK McCarthy



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What reason, (evidence) is there to believe Brownie?

Hermano,

No reason is needed, if he lied, and did write it, he could only get the story from his father. If he is telling the truth, that he did not write it, his father did. If one follows the directions, and clues, and finds the LDM, does it matter if he lied? Dick Holmes did find the body with the chain at Hidden Water.

Homar