The Two Soldiers

[coazon de oro]

Let's see........Two Indian fighters get discharged from the army and decide they would like to take another hike through the Superstitions. Sounds like a good time to me. Course I never had the occasional wild Indian to deal with and todays trails are marked.

Believe Barry Storm may have melded some other stories into this one.

Funny thing about many of the legends surrounding the LDM, is that people have been making up stories, evidence and "history", with no other reason than advance "factual" familiarity for a book they are planning or to become "experts" on the legends.....almost from the start.

Unlike many "Dutch Hunters" of today, I have always believed Jacob Waltz had a rich mine in the Superstitions. I don't, on the other hand, swallow all of the new stories/evidence that come down the pike. Prefer to believe those writers who were closest to the actual events and the Dutchman. That and five bucks may get me an average cup of coffee.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Howdy Joe,

Then why is it that you keep endorsing every new book that comes out?

Homar

 

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[cactusjumper]

Howdy Joe,

Then why is it that you keep endorsing every new book that comes out?

Homar

Homar,

I don't endorse "every new book that comes out". There are some that have been published that I have never mentioned. Others, even by people I consider friends, that I have mentioned that their source(s) may be more than questionable. If you were really paying attention, and I know that you do, you would know the truth of that statement. You may remember that I questioned the "Alkire" story that was published in my good friend, Thomas Glover's first book. In fact, I did most of the work that disproved that story with documented evidence. I questioned that story publically, and privately with Thomas. You may have noticed that Alkire is not mentioned in his latest book.

I don't mind folks pointing out my errors, what I do mind is when they do it inaccurately, as you have just done. When you come out with a book on the LDM, I will give it a fair reading, without the agenda driven bias that many posts here show.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[audigger53]

Strange, I thought the 2 soldiers were on the way to Globe when they found the ledge and then cashed in there and bought supplies and went back but got killed out in the mountains trying to find it again. Nothing about Waltz. Was supposed to be Indians that did it. The way I heard it anyway.

 

[cactusjumper]

Strange, I thought the 2 soldiers were on the way to Globe when they found the ledge and then cashed in there and bought supplies and went back but got killed out in the mountains trying to find it again. Nothing about Waltz. Was supposed to be Indians that did it. The way I heard it anyway.

AU,

Nothing strange about what has been posted. Whatever story you believe about the two soldiers, you can find a published book that will bolster that belief.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sailaway]

Joe, if you ever read the interviews you will Round File everything Berry Storm wrote.
I believe Brownie was about as close to the source as we can get when it comes to the Dutchman mine, however it hurts knowing that there was one clue Brownie took to the grave with him that he never told anyone.
The soldiers were active duty and not discharged according to Brownie. They were not interested in Mining as it would interfere with their duties but Mason wanted them to claim and stake the mine. They agreed to stake it for him and left on return trip the next day. One was found south west of Church rock within sight of the Dons Camp, the other never was found except buttons off his uniform in the west box area near where Adolph Ruth died.

Around the race track Brownie found an old Spanish bit and sword. proof the Spanish were in the heart of the Superstitions, no matter what the numbers were. However what about the thousands of Spanish peon sandals that were found in the east box in a cave across from the Cheryl Anne claim of Chuck Crawford? What of the Spanish foundation that Roy Bradford found? All those clues point to East Box Canyon and Horse ridge.

Garry the transcriptions were taped interviews by different people of Brownie. The #4 is one of the ten interviewers that were transcribed. There were ten people who had interviews with Brownie. Each got a signed and numbered hard copy of the book. The person who has #4 will know it was his book, when it was read and where. Each book has all the interviews in it.

I will toss in a photo taken of White Hill looking west across from White Mountain with horse ridge behind it

 

[EarnieP]

In the death bed confession of Jacob Waltz to Holmes, Jacob stated he killed the two soldiers.
(information comes from the interviews of Brownie Holmes transcribed by Steve Bowser, there are only 10 copies of this)
I personally viewed book #4

Think Hal came up with some good indication that Holmes was not at the death bed.

 

[audigger53]

EarnieP What! You mean that Holmes lied! How horrible of you. LOL Just kidding.

 

[sailaway]

It is up to you to believe someone that was not there and basing beliefs of misconstrued facts presented by others that never were there.
(same as people believing that the soldiers were discharged)
So Clay's Matchbox was not made from the gold under JW's bed? Do you believe the matchbox and cuff links were faked?
Physical evidence of gold that can not be traced to any known mine says Brownie's dad was there at the death bed.
I prefer to believe the physical evidence that can not be faked over words that can be misinterpreted, misrepresented, or just plain twisted. Unlike the physical evidence like the oro word that Berry Storm faked then took pictures of.
Hal have you ever read the interviews of Brownie?, if so who's book?
We must remember everything Brownie says about the deathbed is second hand as Brownie was not there, but believed all his Dad told him.
After 40 years searching the wilderness Brownie stated he had not found the mine but knew in detail thousands of places the mine was not at.

 

[azdave35]

It is up to you to believe someone that was not there and basing beliefs of misconstrued facts presented by others that never were there.
(same as people believing that the soldiers were discharged)
So Clay's Matchbox was not made from the gold under JW's bed? Do you believe the matchbox and cuff links were faked?
Physical evidence of gold that can not be traced to any known mine says Brownie's dad was there at the death bed.
I prefer to believe the physical evidence that can not be faked over words that can be misinterpreted, misrepresented, or just plain twisted. Unlike the physical evidence like the oro word that Berry Storm faked then took pictures of.
Hal have you ever read the interviews of Brownie?, if so who's book?
We must remember everything Brownie says about the deathbed is second hand as Brownie was not there, but believed all his Dad told him.
After 40 years searching the wilderness Brownie stated he had not found the mine but knew in detail thousands of places the mine was not at.

the only clue brownie had that actually came from the dutchman was the rock formation in the shape of a man...he looked for that all his life and never found it...as far as the ore from the matchbox not matching any other mine goes...there has not been enough testing to prove that statement...only a couple people have claimed to have done the testing and none of us has seen the results

 

[audigger53]

OK let me start with Frontier Logic. With out either a mule/burro for supplies, food& water at the minimum, a horse was required to travel to water and escape Indians, when possible. The idea that 2 soldiers that knew the area would go with out horses, strikes me as foolhardy. Remember that stealing a man's horse, was grounds for hanging as you had just about killed him slowly.
IMO Upon mustering out, they would have bought horses ASAP or taken transportation to where they could catch a stage. Anything else is tantamount to a death sentence, again IMO. So the story that they walked out does not make common sense. OK let the disagreements start.

 

[sailaway]

According to the people I know that have been in the box, all state there is no way a horse could make it in or out of there. If you believe that a horse is a necessity to get to water then the box is not where you want to go. What about Brads Water? what about the three tanks by the Spanish foundation? Herman spent years in there living in a cave, his supplies are still in there. He blamed his brother for being drunk when Jacob was on his death bed and not being able to remember clearly what was said.
Why do you believe that the Soldiers were without supplies or transportation? They were active duty and had the support of the Army. Their duties were to patrol the area between Posts, one was in Whitlow Canyon, the other was on Picket Post Mountain.
Author: Briggs, D.F.
Description: In November 1870, General George Stoneman, the military commander of the Arizona Territory, erected a small military camp near the base of Picket Post Mountain and began construction of a road to the proposed site of Camp Pinal, a second military post in the Pinal Mountains. Completed in April 1871, this road meandered north from Camp Picket Post on Queen Creek about three miles west of the present town site of Superior to a point along Silver King Wash; then followed Silver King Wash north to its junction with Comstock Wash. The road crossed the Pinal Mountains at “Stoneman’s Grade”, where it dropped into the upper reaches of the Queen Creek drainage before emerging just north of Oak Flat and crossing Devils Canyon before continuing east to Camp Pinal, located near the present day community of Top of the World. Shortly after the Camp Grant Massacre of April 30, 1871, General Stoneman was relieved of command and replaced by General George Crook, who subsequently abandoned Camp Pinal in July 1871
http://repository.azgs.az.gov/uri_gin/azgs/dlio/1661

http://zybtarizona.com/awars.htm

http://superstitionmountaintomkollenborn.blogspot.com/2012/04/two-soldiers-lost-mine.html

 

[audigger53]

According to the people I know that have been in the box, all state there is no way a horse could make it in or out of there. If you believe that a horse is a necessity to get to water then the box is not where you want to go. What about Brads Water? what about the three tanks by the Spanish foundation?
Why do you believe that the Soldiers were without supplies or transportation? They were active duty and had the support of the Army. Their duties were to patrol the area between Forts.
One was in Whitlow canyon, the other was on mountain.
ARIZONA APACHE WARS

Don't you hate it when you type in a reply and find out you have to relog in? LOL

Who states that you believe, that the Soldiers were without supplies or transportation? They were active duty and had the support of the Army. Their duties were to patrol the area between Forts.

ARIZONA APACHE WARS[/QUOTE]

When they discharged? Yes they would have a good idea where water was to be located, but from Mesa going to the Silver King or Globe is not a straight trip with water. Most of the reference that you added is not in the southern area of the Supes, but much further north. Mesa is south west of the beginning of the Supes. The Salt River is the best way to go for water and then cut across towards Globe. In that area of Arizona water is the main concern. Growing up in Florence and going out on the Weekend's shooting Jack Rabbits in the summer when not "Chopping Cotton" or "Picking Cotton late July- August. I do know about the need for water in that area. It is better in the winter than the summer for hiking, but you still need water. Now I don't know about the "Box", that you are referring to. However, you being in Apache Junction know what I am talking about when you go outside in the late spring- to early fall.

 

[sailaway]

yes, was not through editing and had to restart Google, The Box short for east La barge Box Canyon

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

I don't endorse "every new book that comes out". There are some that have been published that I have never mentioned. Others, even by people I consider friends, that I have mentioned that their source(s) may be more than questionable. If you were really paying attention, and I know that you do, you would know the truth of that statement. You may remember that I questioned the "Alkire" story that was published in my good friend, Thomas Glover's first book. In fact, I did most of the work that disproved that story with documented evidence. I questioned that story publically, and privately with Thomas. You may have noticed that Alkire is not mentioned in his latest book.

I don't mind folks pointing out my errors, what I do mind is when they do it inaccurately, as you have just done. When you come out with a book on the LDM, I will give it a fair reading, without the agenda driven bias that many posts here show.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Howdy Joe,

I do admit that I was a little broad using "every" instead of "many", but it's because I don't know of the one's you have not endorsed. I don't keep up with all the new books coming out since I have no interest in any. As I told you before, I have only read one book concerning the LDM when I was in high school, and I don't know which one it was.

I am not familiar with Alkire's influence on the LDM stories. Which two, or three most popular LDM clues come from Alkire? The book that I did read stated that Jacob would go behind the rock that looked like a man on his way to the mine. It also stated that he would go down a steep ravine, and get on a ledge where the mine was. Does that come from Alkire?

You dismiss things that in my honest opinion did happen like the Holmes Manuscript, and the Peralta Stones. This makes me want to get my hands on anything Alkire.

Homar

 

[cactusjumper]

Howdy Joe,

I do admit that I was a little broad using "every" instead of "many", but it's because I don't know of the one's you have not endorsed. I don't keep up with all the new books coming out since I have no interest in any. As I told you before, I have only read one book concerning the LDM when I was in high school, and I don't know which one it was.

I am not familiar with Alkire's influence on the LDM stories. Which two, or three most popular LDM clues come from Alkire? The book that I did read stated that Jacob would go behind the rock that looked like a man on his way to the mine. It also stated that he would go down a steep ravine, and get on a ledge where the mine was. Does that come from Alkire?

You dismiss things that in my honest opinion did happen like the Holmes Manuscript, and the Peralta Stones. This makes me want to get my hands on anything Alkire.

Homar

Homar,

Since you have an admitted aversion to reading, I will save you some time. The Alkire story can be found on page 138 of "The Story Of Superstition Mountain And The Lost Dutchman Mine" by Robert Joseph Allen. Copies can be found here:

Robert Joseph Allen - AbeBooks

I have just saved you the intense labor it will take you to struggle through the first 137 pages.

Since you believe in the truthfulness of "the Holmes Manuscript and Stone Maps", I believe this book will be right in your wheelhouse, so to speak.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[audigger53]

Wow, he wrote a couple books about the LDM and so did a lot of others. Guess he found his own gold mine that way. 1983, and 1987 books on the LDM. Does that put him in the same category as Storm? I still don't believe most of what I read or hear about the LDM, Waltz's mine. Most of them seems to me most of the authors were after Fame or Fortune (with Books).
I admit some were serious about it, Ruth for one and others, but not the ones writing books to make money. Sift all of those for facts (?) from other stories and see if you believe that repetition ='s truth or fact. IMO there have been so many lies about it that it will be an accident when someone actually finds it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wow, he wrote a couple books about the LDM and so did a lot of others. Guess he found his own gold mine that way. 1983, and 1987 books on the LDM. Does that put him in the same category as Storm? I still don't believe most of what I read or hear about the LDM, Waltz's mine. Most of them seems to me most of the authors were after Fame or Fortune (with Books).
I admit some were serious about it, Ruth for one and others, but not the ones writing books to make money. Sift all of those for facts (?) from other stories and see if you believe that repetition ='s truth or fact. IMO there have been so many lies about it that it will be an accident when someone actually finds it.

AU,

Actually, Allen published his book in 1971. I believe Storm's first book on the LDM was Copyright 1939. It was called "Trail of the Lost Dutchman". The more successful book was "Thunder Gods' Gold". It was first printed in 1945. There was also "Gold of the Superstitions" by Storm which came out in 1940.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[audigger53]

So he was making money selling books on the LDM. Was that to make money to go back looking for the LDM? If he was doing it for grub stakes, I can see it. But I doubt if he put any "true" clues in the books for getting to the mine. If he was looking for it why would he tell the real clues and not just landmarks that he noticed in passing through the area.
The landmarks would add validity to the books, but not for finding the LDM. IMO Of course.

 

[audigger53]

Joe, does anyone else remember the State Highway Marker and rest area by Silly Mountain? I remember it still being there until the State widened the highway (Route 60) from a 2 lane road to a 4 lane divided road. At that time it was removed, about August/September 1964.
I remember the road being widened then and no longer saw the rest area with the Marker when going up to Phoenix while on Leave from Boot camp.
"This is where the Dutchman would leave the stage to go to his mine."
With a iron replica of a prospector leading a burro/mule that he (Waltzr) didn't use.

 

[audigger53]

Joe, does anyone else remember the State Highway Marker and rest area by Silly Mountain? I remember it still being there until the State widened the highway (Route 60) from a 2 lane road to a 4 lane divided road. At that time it was removed, about August/September 1964.
I remember the road being widened then and no longer saw the rest area with the Marker when going up to Phoenix while on Leave from Boot camp.
"This is where the Dutchman would leave the stage to go to his mine."
With a iron replica of a prospector leading a burro/mule that he (Waltzr) didn't use.

I should have said going from Florence to Phoenix after getting out of Boot Camp and coming home on Leave.