The Two Soldiers

[Cubfan64]

Oro, here's a few things I picked out of Ely's account:

1) Ely's account states that Bowen and Doran spoke directly to him and corraborated each other's story and mentions that the 2 soldiers appeared at the Silver King in the summer of 1880. I can't find a direct reference to the Sierra Ancha or 4 peaks 2 soldiers story, but you had mentioned that it was dated to the 1860's. I can't imagine 2 people who were there when the boys showed up being off on their dates by 20 some odds years?

2) Ely states that "since they knew where they wanted to go, they avoided the circuitous Apache Trail which paralleled the Salt River to the high ground above Fish Creek and then took a right angle turn along the ridges to the neighborhood of Pinal" Instead they took a more direct route. Looking at where the Sierra Ancha's are and even the 4 peaks, I can't imagine why anyone would have gone that direction from Fort MacDowell. A more direct route cuts right across the Superstitions it seems like. I wonder where the Salt River crossings were at that time?

3) The boys mentioned that the ore they found was located in a northerly direction from a sharp peak - It seems as though whenever that's mentioned, people automatically believe that's Weaver's Needle - I'm not sold on that personally. However if you follow the rest of their directions, they state that on their way out they struck a trail which led through a little gap in the range not far from the peak, leading them into an east/west valley maybe 2 miles wide, followed it east past a horse ranch, then onto a trail that led to Pinal. Those directions just don't jive with me in comparison to where the Sierra Ancha's are. It could fit the 4 Peaks area, but again I can't imagine why anyone would go so far east from Fort MacDowell before heading south and then having to deal with crossing the Salt River off the high cliffs that run along the N side of the river.

4) According to Ely, it was understood that the distance to the mine from Pinal was no more than 25 miles - if these were soldiers, surely they had a feel for distance from their scouting trips no? It's difficult to make a distance judgement as to where 25 miles would take one because of the zig zagging and up and down one has to make when crossing through ranges, but as the crow flies, Weaver's Needle is ~16 miles from where Pinal was, and Tortilla Mountain is ~17 miles from Pinal. I'm guessing the 25 mile distance via trail following wouldn't take one to the Salt River.

5) Whitlow found the body with a bullet hole and a soldier's cap - between Bark's ranch and Miner's Needle. It wasn't a skeleton so he had to have been killed recently. Perhaps a coincidence, but the location fits part of the directions that the boys gave as to coming out of the mountains.

I'm definitely not saying Oro that the 2 Soldiers story wasn't "moved" from the 4 Peaks or the Sierra Ancha's to the Superstitions, but I'm convinced that unless Bowen and Doran changed many of the details of what really happend and was said by the boys - or Ely changed things either on purpose or because he couldn't remember, to me the evidence points more towards the boys finding the ore in the Superstition Mountains somewhere.

Let me know what you think - I may very well be completely wrong in my interpretation.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI, I repeat the 10 days is of no value, if all that you have is ely's version which is shown to be often inconsistant or misinterpretated. Incidentally, just how much itme is needed to stake a claim in those days?

Oro just nails his Prince Albert chawing tobacerr can to a tree with the data inside.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Cubfan wrote

1) Ely's account states that Bowen and Doran spoke directly to him and corraborated each other's story and mentions that the 2 soldiers appeared at the Silver King in the summer of 1880.

Ely dates his encounter with Bowen to 1900, plenty of time for error to creep in; Bark makes no mention of a date; Ely has the two soldiers leave Ft McDowell headed cross-country to Pinal, Ely has it as the two soldiers who pull out some pieces of ORE (not nuggets) and show it to Mason who tells them the dull-looking metal in the ore is gold, and that the total of all their ore is worth between six and eight hundred dollars. Bark has this part different, as Joe posted.

Cubfan also wrote

2) Ely states that "since they knew where they wanted to go, they avoided the circuitous Apache Trail which paralleled the Salt River to the high ground above Fish Creek and then took a right angle turn along the ridges to the neighborhood of Pinal" Instead they took a more direct route. Looking at where the Sierra Ancha's are and even the 4 peaks, I can't imagine why anyone would have gone that direction from Fort MacDowell. A more direct route cuts right across the Superstitions it seems like. I wonder where the Salt River crossings were at that time?

I do not know the answer to that one, (location of the crossings) but this part of the story would have to be discarded as untrustworthy if the Two Soldiers was a transplant job.

Cubfan also wrote

3) The boys mentioned that the ore they found was located in a northerly direction from a sharp peak - It seems as though whenever that's mentioned, people automatically believe that's Weaver's Needle - I'm not sold on that personally. However if you follow the rest of their directions, they state that on their way out they struck a trail which led through a little gap in the range not far from the peak, leading them into an east/west valley maybe 2 miles wide, followed it east past a horse ranch, then onto a trail that led to Pinal. Those directions just don't jive with me in comparison to where the Sierra Ancha's are. It could fit the 4 Peaks area, but again I can't imagine why anyone would go so far east from Fort MacDowell before heading south and then having to deal with crossing the Salt River off the high cliffs that run along the N side of the river.

There are several sharp peaks in our area of reference, so I am in agreement on that issue that we ought not ASSUME it must be Weavers needle; Penfield has the soldiers discharged from Ft Apache; this fort was actually founded May of 1870 and named Camp Ord but renamed Apache in 1879. Other sources have the soldiers show up not in Silver King nor Pinal but at Florence! So it appears the story of the route taken, as we find in Ely - may not apply especially if this were added later. Obviously the route might be described quite differently if it were from a different fort, or ending at a different settlement.

Cubfan also wrote

4) According to Ely, it was understood that the distance to the mine from Pinal was no more than 25 miles - if these were soldiers, surely they had a feel for distance from their scouting trips no? It's difficult to make a distance judgement as to where 25 miles would take one because of the zig zagging and up and down one has to make when crossing through ranges, but as the crow flies, Weaver's Needle is ~16 miles from where Pinal was, and Tortilla Mountain is ~17 miles from Pinal. I'm guessing the 25 mile distance via trail following wouldn't take one to the Salt River.

Well, lets turn to Bark and notice the description of how the soldiers traveled; he says they crossed the Salt river, came to what is now the Apache trail and followed it several miles to a creek crossing where there was some water; the trail appeared to go the long way round so they then went up the creek but came to a water fall they could not pass so turned back. They then cut cross country and accidently find the old trail that leads them to a walled up mine tunnel. Where does that put us? Do you think that leaves us with 25 miles remaining between that area and either the Silver King or Pinal? I am not sure.

Cubfan also wrote

5) Whitlow found the body with a bullet hole and a soldier's cap - between Bark's ranch and Miner's Needle. It wasn't a skeleton so he had to have been killed recently. Perhaps a coincidence, but the location fits part of the directions that the boys gave as to coming out of the mountains.

Bark has the dead soldier found on or near Bluff Springs Mtn. It was ONE body not a two also, which leaves us missing a dead soldier doesn't it?

Cubfan also wrote

I'm definitely not saying Oro that the 2 Soldiers story wasn't "moved" from the 4 Peaks or the Sierra Ancha's to the Superstitions, but I'm convinced that unless Bowen and Doran changed many of the details of what really happend and was said by the boys - or Ely changed things either on purpose or because he couldn't remember, to me the evidence points more towards the boys finding the ore in the Superstition Mountains somewhere.

Let me know what you think - I may very well be completely wrong in my interpretation.

You may also be completely right; as I said I cannot prove this case. The story of the Two Soldiers as we find it in Ely is third hand or worse, we can't check it against the witnesses he mentioned and it does not match with the version his own partner of many years. That alone bothers me - a slight difference or a date wrong I can write off to lapse of memory or simple error, but why does Bark not even mention the Two Soldiers in his notes on Joe Deering? One would think that to be a rather important detail explaining why Deering showed up at all right? I am guessing at the 1860's origin for the Sierra Anchas version as I am working from memory but it at least dates to 1879 which is surprisingly close to the 1880 date used by Ely.

HI, I repeat the 10 days is of no value, if all that you have is ely's version which is shown to be often inconsistant or misinterpretated. Incidentally, just how much itme is needed to stake a claim in those days?

Oro just nails his Prince Albert chawing tobacerr can to a tree with the data inside.

Don Jose de La Mancha

I would point out that this is an objective opinion on your part, if Ely had the information correct then the ten days are a fair indicator to judge the distance; of course Bark has the two soldiers afoot leading burros, which would make it easier for a man with a twisted foot or club foot to catch up with them but there are SO many variations in the stories. It could be value-less, and as soon as someone locates the lost Two Soldiers mine we can then measure the distances from it to Pinal, Silver King, Ft McDowell, etc and see how the information we had fit with reality.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hi, mi bosom buddy Oro, there is that durn word ÏF" again. and as it has been mentioned, where is the second soldier? did he scrag his partner then disappear?? If so why didn't he appear later to claim his vein? Or did he under another name?

Was this 10 days specified as the distance that they had to travel to reach the outcrop, or just when they intended to return? Did they intend to bring back more samples of the hi-grade? Was the 10 days factor a cover up or false trail to misguide others?

So many questions that just beg to be answered, but at the moment can only be answered with an "objective opinion", what else do we have other than this at this point?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

RDT you said;

So many questions that just beg to be answered, but at the moment can only be answered with an "objective opinion", what else do we have other than this at this point?

Truer words cannot be spoken about this stuff!

Oro - I completely understand what you're saying, and I should have qualified the things I wrote about by stating that I'm really mostly only looking at Ely's account. I guess I'm still of the mindset of trying to figure out what the inaccuracies are in Ely's book that's what I didn't do any comparisons to the Bark Notes - mostly because if I do that now, it only confuses the matter (at least in my own head).

If you can nail down the Sierra Ancha or 4 Peaks storys to a date and it ends up closer to 1880, that would go a long ways towards pushing me closer to the story being "moved" to the Supers - otherwise, I still can't buy Bowen and Doran both being off on their dates by that many years.

I don't know the answer to the 25 miles - it's just too difficult to try to figure out how far one could travel from Pinal in all the different directions they could have gone - then add to that fact that we don't know really if they had a horse or not.

I really didn't toss Panknin into the mix here because there's no way to know for sure if the fellow he was speaking about in Alaska was indeed the swamper with the twisted foot or not. Without knowing that, it's impossible to tie him to the story of the 2 Soldiers except by his landmark of using the Silver King, but that's a real stretch.

I'm curious to talk to Joe in a couple weeks about his comments regarding Bark's notes being in circulation earlier than Spangler's version hit the community (however that may have happened). I'm not sure there's a good argument that causes one to put more stock into the Bark Notes vs. Ely's book considering we know the source of Ely's book, but the provenance of the Bark Notes that's in the public is VERY SKETCHY at best and could be a complete fabrication at worse just done to confuse matters.

I know someone (and you do too) who believes there are simply too many inconsistencies between the Bark Notes and Ely's book for one to have been the source of the other - not without A LOT of liberties taken by the writer.

Once again it's just another case of confusing information that ultimately leads to no answer sadly.

But heck, it makes for fun discussions

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

"I'm curious to talk to Joe in a couple weeks about his comments regarding Bark's notes being in circulation earlier than Spangler's version hit the community (however that may have happened). I'm not sure there's a good argument that causes one to put more stock into the Bark Notes vs. Ely's book considering we know the source of Ely's book, but the provenance of the Bark Notes that's in the public is VERY SKETCHY at best and could be a complete fabrication at worse just done to confuse matters."

I may have worded that wrong. The notes that were stolen from Spangler hit the streets after 1954.
That was about the same time that Ely's book became available. Somewhere between the mid-1940's and Ely's book being published, he must have been given a copy of the Bark Notes by the Spangler's.

It seems that a lot of information and "facts" were coming to light in 1954. Considering the lies that have been accepted as fact about the history surrounding the LDM, everything that we think we know as factual should be taken with a grain of salt.

Where Bark and Ely match is probably the best information available. Where they differ, I would still go with Bark's version.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

hi, mi bosom buddy Oro, there is that durn word ÏF" again. and as it has been mentioned, where is the second soldier? did he scrag his partner then disappear?? If so why didn't he appear later to claim his vein? Or did he under another name?

Was this 10 days specified as the distance that they had to travel to reach the outcrop, or just when they intended to return? Did they intend to bring back more samples of the hi-grade? Was the 10 days factor a cover up or false trail to misguide others?

So many questions that just beg to be answered, but at the moment can only be answered with an "objective opinion", what else do we have other than this at this point?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Nothing, unfortunately - only our own objective opinions of third-hand information. So while Ely remains (arguably) the best source we have on Waltz, our BEST source is not that good. No offense intended to Ely or Bark.

RDT you said;

So many questions that just beg to be answered, but at the moment can only be answered with an "objective opinion", what else do we have other than this at this point?

Truer words cannot be spoken about this stuff!

Oro - I completely understand what you're saying, and I should have qualified the things I wrote about by stating that I'm really mostly only looking at Ely's account. I guess I'm still of the mindset of trying to figure out what the inaccuracies are in Ely's book that's what I didn't do any comparisons to the Bark Notes - mostly because if I do that now, it only confuses the matter (at least in my own head).

If you can nail down the Sierra Ancha or 4 Peaks storys to a date and it ends up closer to 1880, that would go a long ways towards pushing me closer to the story being "moved" to the Supers - otherwise, I still can't buy Bowen and Doran both being off on their dates by that many years.

I don't know the answer to the 25 miles - it's just too difficult to try to figure out how far one could travel from Pinal in all the different directions they could have gone - then add to that fact that we don't know really if they had a horse or not.

I really didn't toss Panknin into the mix here because there's no way to know for sure if the fellow he was speaking about in Alaska was indeed the swamper with the twisted foot or not. Without knowing that, it's impossible to tie him to the story of the 2 Soldiers except by his landmark of using the Silver King, but that's a real stretch.

I'm curious to talk to Joe in a couple weeks about his comments regarding Bark's notes being in circulation earlier than Spangler's version hit the community (however that may have happened). I'm not sure there's a good argument that causes one to put more stock into the Bark Notes vs. Ely's book considering we know the source of Ely's book, but the provenance of the Bark Notes that's in the public is VERY SKETCHY at best and could be a complete fabrication at worse just done to confuse matters.

I know someone (and you do too) who believes there are simply too many inconsistencies between the Bark Notes and Ely's book for one to have been the source of the other - not without A LOT of liberties taken by the writer.

Once again it's just another case of confusing information that ultimately leads to no answer sadly.

But heck, it makes for fun discussions

Well I can tell you that I was shocked to learn that several different versions of Bark notes are in circulation, which really made me re-examine what I have. The inconsistencies we see between Bark and Ely are strange when we consider that the two men were in fact partners for years, but even partners have disagreements so perhaps we should not ignore either source even where they disagree. We could also take into consideration that Ely was a no-nonsense type of man but also a newspaperman, and newsmen try to get other sources for information that a rancher like Bark might not even listen to. That is not to cast more doubt on Ely if that is the impression my words are implying, just that the two men had quite different backgrounds and obviously different approaches and ideas.

As for the 25 miles, if we use the info from both Bark and Ely, it won't work. The fact that the two soldiers had a well defined route until after crossing the creek and somewhere after that point find the mine, then counting backwards 25 miles from Silver King or Pinal, would mean that the mine must be practically at the creek and trail; which does not seem logical for the men to continue on through the rough country to Pinal if they discovered the mine so close to a major trail, in which case they could easily and fairly quickly make trips to Phoenix for supplies. At least it looks that way to me - I suspect that 25 mile figure could be someone's guess that got grafted into or corrupted in the re-telling. If we use that ten day time period and a 25 mile distance, then it leaves six days time just for staking out two claims which seems ridiculous to me; in my opinion, if that ten days figure is to be taken seriously, more likely eight days of it was for travel! That makes a distance more like 50 miles (afoot) or 100 miles (horseback) and probably takes us OUT of the Superstitions altogether.
Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

Yah, the 10 days seems like a bit of overkill to me too - although Ely says of Mason, "...and that was giving them much more time then they'd need, he thought."

I think Joe mentioned as well that all the different versions of the Bark Notes are pretty much the same - I haven't gone through the ones I have with a fine tooth comb, but again, as Joe said, they're pretty much just formatting issues.

I realize the Bark Notes may be the "best" we have, but aren't you guys bothered at all by the provenance of them? In general, the story I heard was that Spangler took them with him on his trips into the mountains, and at one point he was camped with some folks he knew and one of them took him on a wild goose chase while the other "borrowed" the notes and made a copy of them.

First of all, why if Spangler was so careful with those notes (as I've seen suggested), wouldn't it be just second nature for him to grab those first thing in the morning, or at the very least as soon as he headed out from camp? Next, how were the Bark Notes copied and how long did it take? Handwritten considering the length of them seems like it would take ALOT of time - I don't recall how long Spangler and the other fellow were gone, but if I were to transcribe those notes by hand, it would take a LONG time and I'd have major finger and wrist cramps - not to mention I'd probably use a lot of abbreviations.

If the person copied the notes by going into town and using a photocopier we have the problem of when photocopiers became available for general use which looks like it's right around the 1949-1959 time frame with the first machines being expensive, bulky and messy. It looks like the first "successful" office copier was available around 1959 which is after the Notes were supposedly copied. One of the other options I would have been to photograph each page and copy them later.

Now I'll ask you the question that's always in the forefront of my mind regarding the Bark Notes. We already know from experience how secretive treasure hunters (and specifically LDM hunters) can be right? So why would the 2 men who copied the notes start spreading them around? If I put myself in the place of the man who copied them, I might even consider "modifying" or keeping out the important stuff for myself - depending of course on how much I likes his partner. Let's say I DO share everything with my partner, now why would both of them start spreading around copies of the notes to other dutch hunters - I mean that's their competition right?

The Bark Notes could of course be exactly what they claim to be - the Notes of Jim Bark regarding his search for the LDM - why not mention Ely thought? That seems awfully strange considering Ely speaks of Jim Bark as though they were almost brothers.

Again, I keep coming back to thinking that at least the stories according to Ely's accounts have his name behind them and we know when it was published, etc... We simply don't honestly know how and where the Bark Notes REALLY came into existence.

Not to even mention the "other" set of Bark Notes that very few people have supposedly seen.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

"The Bark Notes could of course be exactly what they claim to be - the Notes of Jim Bark regarding his search for the LDM - why not mention Ely thought? That seems awfully strange considering Ely speaks of Jim Bark as though they were almost brothers."

You are mistaken about Bark not mentioning Sims Ely in his notes. He does mention him, by name, a few times. Bark was a little closer to the earth than Ely, who was a bit of a romantic when it came to writing.

This is not the first time I have seen this "fact" mentioned. Each time, I go back through the versions of the Bark Notes I have and correct the poster. Once a story hits the public eye and gets repeated a few times, it is hard to kill.

Bark first mentions Ely in the Weedin section of his notes. He mentions him again in the "Blank" chapter. Next you will find him mentioned in the "George Scholey" chapter. He is mentioned again in the "Forebach" chapter.

At this point we are only half way though the Bark Notes. You get the idea.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Loke]

OK - so I've just reread the 'Curse' (H.Corbin) again - it's surprising what one misses out on ... :-(
What I hadn't seen before was that the two soldiers actually went on _foot_ from their discharge place (and they refused to spend money on a stage) on their trip to the Silver King - and it's indicated one 'overnight' stop ...
Now - I'm not sufficiently familiar with the Superstitions (or further north for that matter) - can any of you tell me how far two young men can travel in two days (when going through the Superstitions)?? (personally I would have thought that it would take at least _one_ day just to cross those mountains - especially if you get somewhat lost in the process - but then I might well be wrong ...)

Per

 

[Javaone]

OK - so I've just reread the 'Curse' (H.Corbin) again - it's surprising what one misses out on ... :-(
What I hadn't seen before was that the two soldiers actually went on _foot_ from their discharge place (and they refused to spend money on a stage) on their trip to the Silver King - and it's indicated one 'overnight' stop ...
Now - I'm not sufficiently familiar with the Superstitions (or further north for that matter) - can any of you tell me how far two young men can travel in two days (when going through the Superstitions)?? (personally I would have thought that it would take at least _one_ day just to cross those mountains - especially if you get somewhat lost in the process - but then I might well be wrong ...)

Per

From where they were discharged to where they were going "on foot" it doesn't seem possible to me, especially since they took an unfamiliar route. But, then again, I'm not young.

Jerry

 

[Old Dog]

When I was a younger guy I walked 18 miles in an afternoon with my dog after getting my truck stuck.
(still had time to go rescue the truck before dark. Got home about sundown) I was about 26.
I can still cover that kind of ground in a pinch.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

[Ely states that "since they knew where they wanted to go, they avoided the circuitous Apache Trail which paralleled the Salt River to the high ground above Fish Creek and then took a right angle turn along the ridges to the neighborhood of Pinal" Instead they took a more direct route. Looking at where the Sierra Ancha's are and even the 4 peaks, I can't imagine why anyone would have gone that direction from Fort MacDowell. A more direct route cuts right across the Superstitions it seems like. I wonder where the Salt River crossings were at that time?]

We really beat this story to death, both on the LDM Forum and Peter's site. The Two Soldiers story was something he was very big on. My point was that it was illogical for them to travell to the Silver King by that route.

The best way for them to go was south from Ft. McDowell cross the Salt and head east around the southern end of the Superstitions. Fairly well travelled road all the way to the King. Freight was hauled from Phoenix on a regular basis and the chances of hitching a ride was good.

I also proved that you could cross the Salt south of Ft. McDowell. That evidence came from Martha Summerhay's book, "Vanished Arizona". I have a softcover as well as a leather bound copy. If you don't have the book yet, I will bring the softcover to the Rendezvous and you can have it. It's a great read and really gives you the flavor of early Arizona for a soldier's wife.

In 1880 the Apache were, mostly, on reservations, but they were still a problem and it was never considered safe to travel in a place like the Superstitions. Arizona was no place for sissies.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Joe,

When I put myself in their place (if they existed and the story as Ely tells it is true), I would agree with you that I would go exactly the way you suggested - I certainly would never have headed west.

The only caveat to that (again if the story really is true), is that the soldiers are portrayed as young men with at least some experience in the Superstitions (whether scouting or whatever). As you said, at that point many of the indians were on reservations and it's not too much of a stretch for me to imagine 2 young men headstrong enough to think they can "take care of themselves" and cut throught the mountains on whatever trails may have existed - or even by following the course of Tortilla and or Fish Creek through the canyons to arrive on the SW side of the mountains quicker than they could by going all the way around the east side.

Like I said, if I were in their shoes I would have stayed east and been safer and maybe hitched a ride for part of it as you mentioned. On the other hand I have a younger brother and I have no doubt in my mind that he would have chosen the more direct path at that age either through ignorance or because he figured he could take care of himself.

As with most everything else "dutchman" related, we'll never know the whole story until we're dead and can sit up there and have a "rendezvous" in heaven with the folks who were directly involved - it's gonna suck if they all went to hell :P.

 

[Old Dog]

As with most everything else "dutchman" related, we'll never know the whole story until we're dead and can sit up there and have a "rendezvous" in heaven with the folks who were directly involved - it's gonna suck if they all went to hell

That may be one of the truest statements about the Dutchman that I've heard yet.
Thanks Paul.

 

[Cubfan64]

As with most everything else "dutchman" related, we'll never know the whole story until we're dead and can sit up there and have a "rendezvous" in heaven with the folks who were directly involved - it's gonna suck if they all went to hell

That may be one of the truest statements about the Dutchman that I've heard yet.
Thanks Paul.

Hehe, you're welcome

 

[Loke]

As with most everything else "dutchman" related, we'll never know the whole story until we're dead and can sit up there and have a "rendezvous" in heaven with the folks who were directly involved - it's gonna suck if they all went to hell

Hmmm - maybe we tentatively can set a date/year/decade for such a rendez-vous? Might be rather interesting!
Me - he he - I've got a leg in either camp so it doesn't much matter if its upstairs or downstairs ... ;-)

 

[sailaway]

In the death bed confession of Jacob Waltz to Holmes, Jacob stated he killed the two soldiers.
(information comes from the interviews of Brownie Holmes transcribed by Steve Bowser, there are only 10 copies of this)
I personally viewed book #4

 

[Garry]

In the death bed confession of Jacob Waltz to Holmes, Jacob stated he killed the two soldiers.
(information comes from the interviews of Brownie Holmes transcribed by Steve Bowser, there are only 10 copies of this)
I personally viewed book #4

Sailaway,

Over the years I have heard several people refer to the Brownie Holmes interviews. I would like to know if you can share the details of the background of these interviews.

How many interviews are you aware of?

Do you know who recorded them and the date or year the interviews were conducted?

How many interviews has Steve transcribed? And which ones?

To what does Book #4 refer? Is there more that one interview in that book?

Thanks in advance for anything you can share regarding the background,

Garry

 

[cactusjumper]

Let's see........Two Indian fighters get discharged from the army and decide they would like to take another hike through the Superstitions. Sounds like a good time to me. Course I never had the occasional wild Indian to deal with and todays trails are marked.

Believe Barry Storm may have melded some other stories into this one.

Funny thing about many of the legends surrounding the LDM, is that people have been making up stories, evidence and "history", with no other reason than advance "factual" familiarity for a book they are planning or to become "experts" on the legends.....almost from the start.

Unlike many "Dutch Hunters" of today, I have always believed Jacob Waltz had a rich mine in the Superstitions. I don't, on the other hand, swallow all of the new stories/evidence that come down the pike. Prefer to believe those writers who were closest to the actual events and the Dutchman. That and five bucks may get me an average cup of coffee.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo