These Bars Should Not Exist!!!

[Oroblanco]

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Oroblanco

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Oroblanco

 

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[southernbandit]

gollum,
I have seen a story of a mule train.
There is a story called the "Yuchi Gold of Paint Rock Valley" This story is in a book called Buried Treasures of the South. It's a good read and I wouldn't say much more about it except I have been very interested in it for years because (this will get your goat) I was metal detecting at the Paint Rock School one day when some young boys came to see what I was doing. Then before they all had left riding there bikes one boy told me I should ask his dad if I could detect around the back of his house and I ask why. And the boy said that his father had let someone detect some years earlier and that the man found some swords, buckles, "HELMETS" and some gold rocks. The helmets got me because who else wore helmets other than the Spanish conquistadors. This may not have anything to do with what your talking about, I just thought it was interesting when you asked about the mule train.
Good Luck,
southernbandit

 

[formerpilot]

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

The Jesuits (SJ). A very interesting organization. They NEVER lie, however you have to examine what they say very, very carefully! In discussing with their regional directors the mining operations that they conducted in the SW US during the Spanish Colonial period, they say, to a man, "this is all myth". Notice that they didn't say it was untrue, or it never happened, just "it's a myth". Which means: you can believe it or not! Also, just in case you haven't come across this yet, the Jesuits have managed to establish and take over the Center for South West Research at the University of New Mexico, which contains all of the Spanish Colonial files that were taken over by the United States in Santa Fe following the Treaty of Guadalupe. The Jesuits will always say that they never operated any mines, and this is true. They came to New Spain after their establishment in 1540 primarily as mining engineers and geologists. They also never sent the Spanish King his Royal Quinto, which was the primary reason (or one of them) that they were evicted from New Spain in 1767, and all of their treasure was ordered seized by the crown. You will never get any information from a Jesuit concerning buried Spanish, or Jesuit treasure in what is now the USA. The Jesuits think in terms of centuries, and they are hoping to eventually recover this treasure for themselves, if they haven't already.

 

[Oroblanco]

who else wore helmets other than the Spanish conquistadors

Well, the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries, most all European powers wore the comb morion style helmets, so familiar and so widely associated with Spanish conquistadors; specifically English and Dutch soldiers wore them during the period and in the New World. The styles were s-l-i-g-h-t-l-y different, in fact some times it takes an expert to determine just which country a particular helmet came from, but in general helmets were in wide use by European soldiers in the period, not just by Spanish.

Then there is the rest of the problem, since the report only mentioned "HELMETS" and did not describe them in any way, it is quite possible they are of much more modern origins, as in WWI, WW2, etc when most all armies soldiers were equipped with helmets, and it is possible the helmets could be WW2 trophies etc. It is very easy to get excited when we hear such reports, but in all treasure hunting we need to keep our pants on at least until the digging is done!

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[Old Dog]

Roy,

There are other schools of thought on the subject of Spanish armor.
I know of one suit that was discovered in an opening on the west wall of the Black Canyon.
Prior to it becoming a National Park. There is a skeleton inside of it. The helmet was taken and delivered to the State Archie, who was told that he could have the rest of the find for a small sum of ten grand. The then archie copped an attitude and the armor is still in the hole. This I know as my partner and I covered it back up. the helm has been on display at the Western CO Museum of Natural History, for 20 years.

We figure there was a certain rate of desertion from the ranks of the "Conquistadors" Just for the simple reason of greed. Everyone wants their own little slice of the pie. If the slice is rich enough, the Crown forgives.
This was the idea we had about odd Spanish armor, (found where it wasn't supposed to be).

http://www.gjhistory.org/dec/main.htm

Thom
OD

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi mi amigo Thom!

I agree, old armor can and does turn up in the oddest of places, like a "Spanish" helmet found in an attic in NE PA a few years ago, that turned out to be English, and considered of a more rare type than Spanish. My point was that the story only said "HELMETS" without any kind of description, and we treasure hunters all too often make the leap of logic (or sometimes faith) to conclude that it MUST be Spanish armor, when it could be just some old WW2 trophies or something even more modern.

It is good to be an optimist, but the realist is rarely disappointed.

Good luck and good hunting to you buddy, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[Old Dog]

I see your point My friend.

No question about it. we are often compelled to see what we most desire.
LOL
OD

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Thom - I don't really mean to be a wet blanket, and treasure hunters by definition are optimists, heck why else would they be out there searching for treasure unless they were filled with the optimistic hope that they would find treasure right? I have made that mistake of leaping to conclusions enough times (just like this report of "helmets" found, that is then assumed to be Spanish conquistadors) to have learned not to make that leap until we have seen just what it is.

All that negative talk aside, if I heard such a report I would sure want to go and check it out, because it could be old Spanish armor - just that I would not assume that it must be until after it was out of the ground and in sight. I would not assume there could NOT be any Spanish armor either!

Thanks buddy and I hope you have a great day!

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Old Dog]

Roy,

The ridge on the one we found wasn't as tall as the one shown on the link. but ours was definitly Spanish. Even had a royal makers mark on it.

And anytime that fellow wants it I will gladly explain why it will cost him.
Courtesy will get you a lot farther than the kind of rant he tried.
LOL
OD

 

[Old Dog]

SWR,
We brought the helmet to the man.
He copped the you shouldn't' touch it, move it or even go in the opening.
Very loud and verbally offensive.

At which point the offer was made

Believe me there was no monies asked for before the man became offensive.
once he copped the attitude........

End of explanation.

When we left the place after finding the hole we placed the cover back over the opening to protect what was there. We didn't leave it open to the elements when we left. The hole is as we found it. ..... Covered. We did not go back to do the covering.

OD

 

[blurr]

SWR,
We brought the helmet to the man.
He copped the you shouldn't' touch it, move it or even go in the opening.
Very loud and verbally offensive.

At which point the offer was made

Believe me there was no monies asked for before the man became offensive.
once he copped the attitude........

End of explanation.

When we left the place after finding the hole we placed the cover back over the opening to protect what was there. We didn't leave it open to the elements when we left. The hole is as we found it. ..... Covered. We did not go back to do the covering.

OD

I would have done the same thing od. Just think of the things that the public would be able to view if it weren't for people like him. Go figure.

John

 

[Old Dog]

The sum of ten grand was stated at the time by my then partner.
He died in Sept 1989. as a matter of respect I would not back off from that figure as it would mean a lot to his grand children. I would not be interested in a cent of the money.

I think it would be a good way to say he loved them, and how much I respected him. A late inheritance.
As it stands, No money, No armor.

OD

 

[ghostdog]

old dog,I agree with your reasoning,however im just wondering if you took photos of your find,could you post them,with out giveing away any location imformation?Im sure the photos would be great to view,the items being in their found original hideing place.What a adrelenin rush that must of been,more so than the find itself,Best,ghostdog

 

[Old Dog]

Ghostdog,

I go down there fishing sometimes. you have to climb down the canyon wall to get to the river, I wii try to get digital photos when next I go. Depends a lot on how crowded it is at the time though, and the area is a National Park now, so there is a definite risk,

LOL
OD

 

[ghostdog]

hey oldog,understood,when you get to 58{ghostdogs age],ya gotta be careful, I ripped a muscle in my leg last year,and needed a cane for 2 months, however your a olddog,not a ghostdog yet,so you should be able to cut the mustard.GHD

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=ghostdog ]
hey oldog,understood,when you get to 58{ghostdogs age],ya gotta be careful,
~~~~~~~~
Only 58 You still haen't reached yer second childhood, I am almost out of my third hehehehe .

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Old Dog]

Hola Jose,

I guess some of us break down faster than others. LOL

I enjoy the hunt too much to quit tho...
so I just don't go as fast as I used to.
It takes about 30 minutes for a youngster to get down that cliff face trail.
I take about 35 or 40.
I get there in time to fish.
It used to be a good place to pan the cracks,
but I'm not even sure a guy could get away with that anymore.
Might be something to try ... just to see

Hmmmmm
Thom
OD

 

[Sonoita-Bob]

Mike:
Got back from a summer long trip and noticed your interesting posts about Jesuit mining and silver/gold bars attributed to them. I haven't posted on the new TN forum for a couple of years now but felt I had to respond to/add to/comment on what obviously is some great research on your part.

First, I have a silver bar obtained in 1964 from Jack Stone, now deceased, who was the owner of Arizona Assay in downtown Phoenix while I was the assayer at Polaris Laboratories also in Phoenix. I was to go with Jack to cut samples at a manganese mine near Magdalena, Sonora, Mexico, but my son got sick and I couldn't go that weekend. Jack came into our lab the next week and told the story of finding 6 silver crosses and 7 silver bars in an arroyo while eating lunch. He and his 2 workers divided them up and he kept the odd piece to give to me as I had originally offered to go and help.
My bar is 3" X 1 1/4" X 1/8" thick and weighs 58.25 grams. The obverse is a heavily raised 1701 with a definate Templar cross over a "V". Reverse are some church symbols with KINO at the top and S.JUAN at the bottom. It does not appear to be a poured/ cast item but more of a struck piece. I took scrapings across the top edge and gave them to United Nuclear in Buckeye,AZ who at that time had one of only two spectrographs in Arizona, U of AZ having the other. The results came back as: 91% Silver, 1 1/2% Gold, 5% Iron with the balance being Arsenic, Antimony and Manganese. I have no idea if my bar is legitimate or not but I do have a copy of an identical picture of it in an advertisement for Whites 1990 catalog of metal detectors. I may have shown the bar to Springfield when he spent the nite at my place some years ago - I don't remember.

On the Milton Rose matter, when his 3 part story on finding a lost mine came out in Gold Magazine in 1972, I made it a point to locate him as my group was searching in the same area - El Ruido in Sonora. I located him in Salome, AZ working on the Lost Frenchman. Over the next couple of years I made many trips to visit him and exchange notes. He still had a leather suitcase with some silver bars left from the 30's find but they were all rough cast shapes of circles, triangles, squares and rectangles about 1/2 to 1 lb mostly with no markings nothing like the pictures you posted. He had been selling some over the years to finance his research and explorations. He always said he made a mistake selling the impure gold bars to the smelter in Miami,AZ and keeping the silver ones which had almost no value in the 30's.

You talked of pictures? There were no pictures of his find. Maybe you are referring to the pictures and story published in Arizona Highways October 1945 entitled The Mystery of Cerro Ruido by Norman G. Wallace and picked up by Choral Pepper in her book The Mysterious West. But this one is a total Hoax! It seems a bunch of cowboys, Forest Service and a railroad guy were sitting around on the veranda of a Southern Arizona ranch drinking beer and decided to conjure up a lost mine story just for kicks. M ade some pictures of a secret cliff marker (on Ruby Road , AZ) a rainstorm, an old caved mine tunnel and a ruined church facade (actually in southern Mexico one guy had a picture of). They wrote the story and submitted it to Arizona Highways. Fifty years later Arizona Highways published the story that totally debunks this lost mine (Feb. 1998).
But old Milton was not above using a little "literary license" himself. He told me that in his lost mine story he called the church ruins "The Aztec Temple" but it was nothing more than an adobe building almost totally melted. His dynamiting of the tunnel portal with the carved name "Pure Conception" was added because it was his way of making the story appear more exciting, not that it wasn't exciting enough with the fight with the den of snakes and all - which he said really happened.

On your comments about "Ron ---". I have known "Ron" for over 15 years and partnered with him on one of the Tumacacori treasures. His 1985 find was 280 lbs of gold bar. The first 87 lb find was sold to the late Bob Pate, wealthy industrialist/treasure hunter. NO ONE dropped a dime on him to the IRS. His bars when assayed, came in almost always around 90% (.900 fine). They were NOT old NOR Spanish. Our group determined that they were probably some rich Mexican ranchers "piggy bank" buried during the time of one of the Mexican revolutions and that they were most likely coin melt bar (50 peso Mex and US $20 - both .900 fine). Why melt good coin? Why cast them with crosses and V's? I don't have an answer for that. He evidently came back to his hoard to make a withdrawal as 4 of the systematicly plotted location spots were dug up previously before "Ron" interpeted the location system.

Enough rambling,
Take care and keep up the good work.
Sonoita Bob

 

[toytoken]

Hi Mike

Iwasjust reading your post and I thought I would reply and let you know that I have a kino bar ...it looks identical to the one you have display in the photo I only have one bar but I ealso have a small round coinlike piece...just wondering if you have heard of any more of them since if you like I can send you an image

Thanks
ANdrea

 

[godisnum1]

How did you acquire your Kino bar? I'm sure others would love for you to share your photo here on the thread... it's been years since I've looked at photos of those bars & rounds!

Bran <><