These Bars Should Not Exist!!!

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'morning gents, coffee ready, want some? Speaking of finding lost thingies, just where is el Gollllum? Were those his feet that I saw sticking out of that collapsed tunnel?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[truckinbutch]

G'morning gents, coffee ready, want some? Speaking of finding lost thingies, just where is el Gollllum? Were those his feet that I saw sticking out of that collapsed tunnel?

Don Jose de La Mancha

I'll take a cup . Don't know about him : wasn't my week to watch him .

 

[KinoBars]

I have 6 kino bars. Sorry to BUMP such an old post but does anyone have any more information on these?? I'm trying to find a way to sell them but need to know if they are indeed a hoax or if these bars are 300 years old!

 

[deducer]

I have 6 kino bars. Sorry to BUMP such an old post but does anyone have any more information on these?? I'm trying to find a way to sell them but need to know if they are indeed a hoax or if these bars are 300 years old!

Show us a picture of them.

 

[cactusjumper]

Show us a picture of them.

deducer,

Father Kino sold a lot of food and materials to the mines. I have heard that he insisted on payment in gold or silver. It does not seem unreasonable that the mine owners would have marked such payments with Kino's name. It does seem that if Father Kino was involved in mining the gold or silver, that he would not mark the bars with his own name. Just how stupid were those Jesuits?

Take care,

Joe

 

[galenrog]

Most Kino bars in existence today are modern reproductions, with many being up to 100 years young. As with many suspected artifacts of bygone eras, I suggest taking them to a qualified professional to have them authenticated.

 

[sdcfia]

Most Kino bars in existence today are modern reproductions, with many being up to 100 years young. As with many suspected artifacts of bygone eras, I suggest taking them to a qualified professional to have them authenticated.

Long article, but interesting and to the point:

Kino Ingot & Cross - Holabird Western Americana Collections

 

[deducer]

R

deducer,

Father Kino sold a lot of food and materials to the mines. I have heard that he insisted on payment in gold or silver. It does not seem unreasonable that the mine owners would have marked such payments with Kino's name. It does seem that if Father Kino was involved in mining the gold or silver, that he would not mark the bars with his own name. Just how stupid were those Jesuits?

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,

As you know, bars containing his name would have been a form of homage rather than ownership, much in the same sense that we see bars embossed with "Saeta" (Fr. Saeta, killed in the 1695 uprising). Other bars contain mission names, significant dates in Jesuit lore, or significant players (de Vargas).

Mike is the expert on this, not me, so hopefully he'll be along shortly to hold forth on the topic.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Joe,

As you know, bars containing his name would have been a form of homage rather than ownership, much in the same sense that we see bars embossed with "Saeta" (Fr. Saeta, killed in the 1695 uprising). Other bars contain mission names, significant dates in Jesuit lore, or significant players (de Vargas).

Mike is the expert on this, not me, so hopefully he'll be along shortly to hold forth on the topic.

deducer,

I don't disagree, but I'm only saying they could have been marked and set aside for payment to Father Kino, for services and goods.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

deducer,

I don't disagree, but I'm only saying they could have been marked and set aside for payment to Father Kino, for services and goods.

Take care,

Joe

I realize that your prior reply was directed to our mutual amigo Deducer, but have to ask this. You wrote:

Father Kino sold a lot of food and materials to the mines. I have heard that he insisted on payment in gold or silver. It does not seem unreasonable that the mine owners would have marked such payments with Kino's name. It does seem that if Father Kino was involved in mining the gold or silver, that he would not mark the bars with his own name. Just how stupid were those Jesuits?

Just who or whom were these mysterious miners operating mines in Pimeria Alta in Kino's time?

Where do we have it that Kino was taking payment(s) from these miners, in silver and/or gold?

Why would you assume what Kino might or might not mark on his bars? We know that he complained of the theft of over 800 ounces that he had shipped to Rome. Perhaps Kino might start marking his silver bars after having a shipment stolen to help prevent theft in future? We also have another padre complaining that he could not work the mines as he would like due to the hostile Indians, and in another letter he mentions being in the "silver mountains". Piles of slag at two missions founded by Jesuits, and slag built right into the mission walls (buildings erected by the later Franciscans) which certainly points to some kind of mining activities being carried on by the padres. We also can trace many of the lost "Jesuit" mine stories to local Indians. Are the Indians to be discounted, because they are or were Indians? Further, if Kino and other padres were selling such quantities of supplies and stock to miners, why then did one of the padres complain that when the Spanish did visit his mission, they were in the habit of simply taking what ever they desired, and never offering to pay for it?

I realize that we have litigated this pretty much to death, and clearly you remain in the belief that the Jesuits were not involved in mining and or were on such a tiny, petty, insignificant scale as to be equivalent to picking up a few pebbles; so am not about to waste your time trying to change your mind. However I would like to see some substantiation to the claim(s) you posted, like who or whom were these "miners" operating in Pimeria Alta (which would include a goodly part of Arizona) that were buying goods/stock at the Jesuit missions, in father Kino's time, that they would be marking any bars at all? What goods, services and or stock do you propose that these mysterious Spanish or Mexican miners were purchasing?


Thanks in advance, hope all is well with you and that you are staying cool! I hope you are still improving every day and feeling better as well.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe I agree, with oro, as I usually do because he is generally correct but I would like to point out " what is the popular theory on the Jesuit expulsion", not for insignificent mining, but actually for insurrection, simply because they realized the richness of North America.

Tayopa was a Jesuit operation, a similar occuring mineral situation was the Plancha de Plata. The Royal decision on the Planchas de Plata also was a determing factor in the Insurection, this put the Tayopa complex in jeopardy., since it had similar ore.

 

[sdcfia]

Hi Joe,

As you know, bars containing his name would have been a form of homage rather than ownership, much in the same sense that we see bars embossed with "Saeta" (Fr. Saeta, killed in the 1695 uprising). Other bars contain mission names, significant dates in Jesuit lore, or significant players (de Vargas).

Mike is the expert on this, not me, so hopefully he'll be along shortly to hold forth on the topic.

Per Holibird's report - citing the work of Richards, Craig, Moulton, Dana, et al, and the geochemical analysis of a couple "Kino bars" - his conclusion was a warning to those who considered investing in the "artifacts":

"The Kino ingots were placed into the American marketplace more than six decades ago amidst a cloud of uncertainty and questions. Their origin has carefully been kept secret, letting rumors fly in the wake of clever stories, most rendered without a shred of proof.

The men or man who made them carefully placed them into the numismatic world. Over time, other suspicious precious metal ingots were also placed into the numismatic world. The place of origin of many of these questionable or fake ingots was Arizona. The men responsible continued to improve their techniques and place more bad ingots into circulation.

The chemistry of the ingots underlies this fact, given that the association of the specific metals contained herein are not natural. It is further emphasized by the direct tie of this specific alloy to a man made, constructed metal alloy used in modern times, thought to be developed after about 1940. These two bars were clearly made in a manner to look like silver, feel like silver, and weigh like silver. They were thus made to deceive."

The authenticity of the Saeta and other mission bars are undetermined, but the fate of the Kino bars is clear: "caveat emptor". This won't dissuade the true believers, but it might give pause to those whom are seeking the straight skinny.

 

[Oroblanco]

Per Holibird's report - citing the work of Richards, Craig, Moulton, Dana, et al, and the geochemical analysis of a couple "Kino bars" - his conclusion was a warning to those who considered investing in the "artifacts":

"The Kino ingots were placed into the American marketplace more than six decades ago amidst a cloud of uncertainty and questions. Their origin has carefully been kept secret, letting rumors fly in the wake of clever stories, most rendered without a shred of proof.

The men or man who made them carefully placed them into the numismatic world. Over time, other suspicious precious metal ingots were also placed into the numismatic world. The place of origin of many of these questionable or fake ingots was Arizona. The men responsible continued to improve their techniques and place more bad ingots into circulation.

The chemistry of the ingots underlies this fact, given that the association of the specific metals contained herein are not natural. It is further emphasized by the direct tie of this specific alloy to a man made, constructed metal alloy used in modern times, thought to be developed after about 1940. These two bars were clearly made in a manner to look like silver, feel like silver, and weigh like silver. They were thus made to deceive."

The authenticity of the Saeta and other mission bars are undetermined, but the fate of the Kino bars is clear: "caveat emptor". This won't dissuade the true believers, but it might give pause to those whom are seeking the straight skinny.

I hope you are not including myself in your "true believers" category, I do not propose to stand behind or authenticate these "Kino" bars at all. My point raised relates to this alternative history, which we have NO support in records or even legends, that has some mystery Spanish or Mexican miners operating in what is now Arizona during the time of father Kino, that were allegedly purchasing goods/services at the Jesuit missions. I have seen nothing to support that this occurred at all, and conversely, we have evidence and testimony, along with legends, that points to the Jesuit padres themselves as the miners. As to how or what might be marked on any GENUINE bars from these operations, we can only but speculate. I can see a reason why a padre might well wish to mark them with some kind of ownership mark, especially in light of the thieving attested to by Kino himself. Are you taking the position that Kino, or any other padre operating a mine, would NEVER mark any bullion bars in any way?

 

[sdcfia]

I hope you are not including myself in your "true believers" category, I do not propose to stand behind or authenticate these "Kino" bars at all. My point raised relates to this alternative history, which we have NO support in records or even legends, that has some mystery Spanish or Mexican miners operating in what is now Arizona during the time of father Kino, that were allegedly purchasing goods/services at the Jesuit missions. I have seen nothing to support that this occurred at all, and conversely, we have evidence and testimony, along with legends, that points to the Jesuit padres themselves as the miners. As to how or what might be marked on any GENUINE bars from these operations, we can only but speculate. I can see a reason why a padre might well wish to mark them with some kind of ownership mark, especially in light of the thieving attested to by Kino himself. Are you taking the position that Kino, or any other padre operating a mine, would NEVER mark any bullion bars in any way?

No, Oro, although you and I disagree on the likely scope of Jesuit mining in Arizona, I never figured that you would argue for the authenticity of these so-called "Kino bars." My position here is limited to the Kino bars, since we have pretty strong evidence as to their legitimacy.

As far as marking the origin of other trade bullion bars, I wouldn't deny the possibility, although I don't see the need for it. I've stated before that I accept the notion of the Jesuits participating in a modest amount of silver mining in Arizona for the purpose of producing altar decorations and common trade silver. That said, since Jesuit mining in Arizona was "outlawed", I'm not clear why they would identify themselves with illegal activities by marking the bars as their products.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen, I agree on the logic on both sides, however these were Dore' bars, they had no way to refne them, so individual value would have been imposible for Kino,and the others.

 

[Honest Samuel]

Great pictures and a great story.

 

[cactusjumper]

Just who or whom were these mysterious miners operating mines in Pimeria Alta in Kino's time?

Where do we have it that Kino was taking payment(s) from these miners, in silver and/or gold?

Why would you assume what Kino might or might not mark on his bars? We know that he complained of the theft of over 800 ounces that he had shipped to Rome. Perhaps Kino might start marking his silver bars after having a shipment stolen to help prevent theft in future? We also have another padre complaining that he could not work the mines as he would like due to the hostile Indians, and in another letter he mentions being in the "silver mountains". Piles of slag at two missions founded by Jesuits, and slag built right into the mission walls (buildings erected by the later Franciscans) which certainly points to some kind of mining activities being carried on by the padres. We also can trace many of the lost "Jesuit" mine stories to local Indians. Are the Indians to be discounted, because they are or were Indians? Further, if Kino and other padres were selling such quantities of supplies and stock to miners, why then did one of the padres complain that when the Spanish did visit his mission, they were in the habit of simply taking what ever they desired, and never offering to pay for it?

I realize that we have litigated this pretty much to death, and clearly you remain in the belief that the Jesuits were not involved in mining and or were on such a tiny, petty, insignificant scale as to be equivalent to picking up a few pebbles; so am not about to waste your time trying to change your mind. However I would like to see some substantiation to the claim(s) you posted, like who or whom were these "miners" operating in Pimeria Alta (which would include a goodly part of Arizona) that were buying goods/stock at the Jesuit missions, in father Kino's time, that they would be marking any bars at all? What goods, services and or stock do you propose that these mysterious Spanish or Mexican miners were purchasing?


Thanks in advance, hope all is well with you and that you are staying cool! I hope you are still improving every day and feeling better as well.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Roy and Don Jose,

I don't have as easy a time focusing on my books as I used to, so it may take me awhile to answer your questions. The missions were usually located close to population centers, Indian and Spanish. The Indians were attracted to water and Spanish mines. Missions were established to serve the miners, their families and to convert the Native Americans to Christianity.

Strength was the dominating factor......all over the world. While we look down on the brutal Spanish conquest of the Americas, the same system of rule applied to the Native American tribes. I don't believe the rumors of Jesuit mining were a principle reason for the Jesuit expulsion from New Spain.

I'm not sure Plancha de Plata had anything to do with the Jesuit's or their expulsion. I had not heard or read that the silver at Tayopa was found laying on top of the ground in huge chunks, at least not that I can remember. I believe De Anza had a pretty firm grip on the circumstances surrounding that find. Once again, you guys probably have a better memory of those events.

IMHO, the history of that era is the real treasure, at least for me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

"I hope you are not including myself in your "true believers" category, I do not propose to stand behind or authenticate these "Kino" bars at all. My point raised relates to this alternative history, which we have NO support in records or even legends, that has some mystery Spanish or Mexican miners operating in what is now Arizona during the time of father Kino, that were allegedly purchasing goods/services at the Jesuit missions. I have seen nothing to support that this occurred at all, and conversely, we have evidence and testimony, along with legends, that points to the Jesuit padres themselves as the miners. As to how or what might be marked on any GENUINE bars from these operations, we can only but speculate. I can see a reason why a padre might well wish to mark them with some kind of ownership mark, especially in light of the thieving attested to by Kino himself. Are you taking the position that Kino, or any other padre operating a mine, would NEVER mark any bullion bars in any way?"

Roy,

I will look at some of my non-Jesuit sources/books for the mention of the payments by the miners to the Jesuits.

I would never take a position that humans would "NEVER" do something so stupid as marking something that would point to them, personally, as breaking laws or rules. In those days, I believe it would be like signing your death order.

I am doing OK, but hope you are doing much better.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

While I am sure that a small amount of looking will find much more than this, I am partial to the writings of Professor Cynthia Radding from the University of New Mexico.

From page 71 of "Landscapes of Power and Identity" she writes: "In return, the missionaries dispatched shipments of grains, ground wheat flour and corn pinole (basic corn meal), dried chilies, chickpeas, brown sugar, soap, lard, and candle wax. Livestock was also a marketable commodity, as the missions supplied the mining reales and presidios with horses, mares, mules and cattle for hides and meat. Not infrequently, missionaries received uncoined silver, stipulated in marcos, a measurement of silver equal to 8.5 pesos, as payment for their livestock and produce."

The second book I opened was "Missionaries Miners & Indians" by EVELLYN HU-DehART. On page 50 she writes: "Spanish merchants also deeply resented the Jesuits for another reason. The fathers, who insisted on receiving only gold and silver for the produce and cattle they sold, bypassed Spanish agents on the frontier to buy directly from their own brokers in Mexico City."

As I recall, this was pretty common.

If more quotes are required, I'm sure I could find them.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I don't disagree, but I'm only saying they could have been marked and set aside for payment to Father Kino, for services and goods.

Take care,

Joe

As you have pointed out a few times, Kino had no personal wealth.

And as a company man in the truest sense of the word, accepting something personally inscribed to him instead of to the society is something he would have.......... abhorred.