Thunderbird Effigy...Real or Myth?

[romeo-1]

I was hoping to get some feedback as to the reality of knapped flint thunderbird effigies. Has anyone ever seen one or even found one or are they a myth. Thanks.

 

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[Muddy Treats]

I guess i'll post it somewhere else, no one ever helps....no wonder it's been almost a year since i have been on here...keep up the good work guys!

 

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[tmodel]

Muddy!! i do not usualy reply to all replies but i will to yours, yes could be a end or side scrapper, but also could be a knife or preform. the flint thunderbird effigy i would not put my name on to sale it for someone. sense all or almost all of the arches say that the flint thunderbirds, that 99.9% if not all are fakes. not made by prehistoric indians. Terry

 

[centfladigger]

Re: OK...here ya' go...

Alright, I know this is an old thread, but I had not seen it until someone revived it recently...

Not sure that posting this will create the same kind of buzz and controversy as it did when I first found it about 5 years ago as I posted it on several artifact forums.

Here's what I DO know. Where I found it. The site is normally under about 10 feet of water, but because of low water levels, the site was visible. It's within a about 1/4-1/2 mile of a MAJOR Native American village (now under water). I know the other artifacts I found with it that day. And it simply is not a spot, in my humble opinion, where someone would salt it. And it certainly appears to have aged patina vs a fresh new knapp.

I can tell you. I have had a number of experts look at it. One, in particular, who is WELL respected in the field feels that it is authentic, but he would NOT personally paper it simply because he was not going to put his name on something that "supposedly" does not appear in the history record. So be it.

I have also looked at EVERY eagle/thunderbird effigy I can come across, and everyone is done in a much more clear distinct style and design from what I have. I know where I found it, and the context in which I found it, and NOBODY can tell me that it's not authentic.

OK, here are the pics, I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions...for the record, I've been hunting Native American artifacts for about 36 years.

And here are all of the other items found that day in the same spot...

you may have found that on the ground but I dont think that material is even from the Carolinas, you have quartz and rhyolite with aybe some coastal plaiins making its way over from Ga. that looks like Tx material right there. I do know people "plant" or throw fakes out for others to find. had a diver buddy have that happen to him 2 years back, found a killer paleo and was stoked until the knaper admitted he knapped that point and even decribed the area my buddy found it in For you I hope your find is authentic old

 

[tmodel]

Cent!! sence he knew the napper, the napper probly knew where he hunted so he planted one to have some fun sounds like he did no body else. the one NC!! found sounds like it would have to be a random drop in ten feet of water i would think NOT... some might say to clean well i know a hunter, digger that all his artifacts look that clean and i know some of his field points i could not get as clean as he has to hace them to frame. i have field hunted with him. Terry

 

[Jonzer]

Not this again. lol.

 

[ivan]

Speedy,
Your thunderbird is very similar to others from the archaeological record.

I have found one myself. They are real.

 

[pickaway]

Saw a guy find one today...

 

[jackiejax]

I just found this site and saw this forum. I have an effigy that my dad found in a cave in the Cascade Mountains in Oregon in 1948 while hunting. OPUr whole family collects arrowheads and artifacts, mainly becasue we find them on our ranch in central Texas. This is NOT a fake...severl experts have looked at it over the years. Including the University of Texas where my mother was aprofessor for 36 years. Take a look!

 

[NC field hunter]

It seems like I have seen this exact piece on other sites. I may be wrong. Either way, I would keep the piece. Who ever did it, did an exquisite job on it. Modern or ancient.

 

[Get-the-point]

Alright, I know this is an old thread, but I had not seen it until someone revived it recently...

Not sure that posting this will create the same kind of buzz and controversy as it did when I first found it about 5 years ago as I posted it on several artifact forums.

Here's what I DO know. Where I found it. The site is normally under about 10 feet of water, but because of low water levels, the site was visible. It's within a about 1/4-1/2 mile of a MAJOR Native American village (now under water). I know the other artifacts I found with it that day. And it simply is not a spot, in my humble opinion, where someone would salt it. And it certainly appears to have aged patina vs a fresh new knapp.

I can tell you. I have had a number of experts look at it. One, in particular, who is WELL respected in the field feels that it is authentic, but he would NOT personally paper it simply because he was not going to put his name on something that "supposedly" does not appear in the history record. So be it.

I have also looked at EVERY eagle/thunderbird effigy I can come across, and everyone is done in a much more clear distinct style and design from what I have. I know where I found it, and the context in which I found it, and NOBODY can tell me that it's not authentic.

OK, here are the pics, I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions...for the record, I've been hunting Native American artifacts for about 36 years.

And here are all of the other items found that day in the same spot...

I saw this in the other thread you have a piece of what looks to be Edwards Plateau Chert and does not belong in the Carolina's. That piece exhibits fresh hinge fractures with no staining other then the other side. A inconsistency to it which should not be. It also has fresh crushing still visible in the close ups. The one side looks like it has staining but i have seen that same staining on multiple fake points as well. I would not waste your time authenticating it as it will most likely come back as a exotic fake. Also with Edwards Chert as it ages the flint takes on a white patination to it.This piece does not have it. It has a artificial patination applied to it as i can see..Multiple clues from that point is the determining factor to my opinion. Which is why everyone is saying they do not believe it is real. I pretty positive it is not....................GTP

 

[mwalsh22]

Found this in Central Illinois in 1968. May be the real deal??

 

[Twitch]

mwalsh - welcome to the site. Most folks will tell you that they're not authentic, old artifacts (I'm not questioning the find). Do you have additional artifacts to share? Central Illinois is obviously a giant honey hole. If you've been hunting there for 45 years we'd all love to see what you have.

Thanks

 

[Missouri]

I have found something almost identical

 

[Buckleberry]

Was this "in situ" taken on potting soil?

 

[Steve Ia]

I took the effigy I posted above in this thread to the show in Mt Pleasant, Iowa last January. I've been going to these local shows for years and recognize some of knowledgeable guys. None of the guys I showed it to thought it was a fake. I don't want to debate it, because I won't be swayed. I still say rare, yes. All fakes, nope. Just my 2 cents.

 

[joshuaream]

I took the effigy I posted above in this thread to the show in Mt Pleasant, Iowa last January. I've been going to these local shows for years and recognize some of knowledgeable guys. None of the guys I showed it to thought it was a fake. I don't want to debate it, because I won't be swayed. I still say rare, yes. All fakes, nope. Just my 2 cents.

Steve, I had to scroll back and see your piece. It is a very different beast than the rest of the items in this thread. I would call it like you have, and eagle effigy vs calling it a thunderbird since that name is so loaded.

There have been some document lizard, bird and human effigies made from Burlington chert in Illinois, Missouri and eastern Iowa, I'd say your piece fits that style much more than the Texas Chert Thunderbirds that show up every once in a while. Here is a link with some similar items, they are rare but enough have been found and documented in old collections to know they exist. The Thunderbirds from Texas started showing up many years ago, they were sold all over the place, and they are all nearly identical.

Polished Chert Lizard Effigies, Page 2

 

[southfork]

I call this the thunder chicken with a broken wing . From Tilly's Hill site personal find not sure where they were going with this artifact .

 

[quito]

I'm not so sure they aren't just a cool simple tool we don't recognize, yet.

 

[Kevin in IN]

Just in case anyone is intrested, there is one going to be auctioned on Oct. 24 th. Go to auctionzip.com , Metzger auction, at the kosicusko county fair grounds. I think the collection is a mix of field grade relics with some modern reproductions mixed in. Just my own view, but would like to here other points of view. I've never seen a thunderbird found in this area, but believe real ones are out there. Kevin

 

[scotto]

Was this "in situ" taken on potting soil?

Good call, sure looks like it to me.