Truth about LDM?

[Oroblanco]

I'll never tell!

 

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[ghostdog]

Well guys, to add a little more from my perspective, its possible the Peralta stones on display in the museum are not true blue copies, another words they are missing details the originals have. Also the Peralta stones are original to the maker, thus they are not fakes,at least in that respect. If they are fakes, then what are they copies of ? So ya its possible they are copies from a map in the museum, a painting, a drawing,landscape, rock etching, cave painting, or original Peralta mineing map. Only the maker can say what there true purpose is,but personally, the photo of them sittin on that early 50"s truck bumber makes me feel they represent something important,

 

[BILL96]

GD,
You bring up my question, if they are considered fakes the what are they fakes of? a fake is usually a copy of some original. If someone declares them a "fake" what does that really mean if we don't know what they are supposed to be in the first place, they could very well be originals simply created in the early 1900's for who know what.
Great conversation
Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

GD & Bill,

There are many definitions of "fake" One is "a document trying to prove something which is not true". The premiss of the Stone Maps, is that they lead to something of value, and they were made by a Spaniard(s). They are also trying to convey the impression they were made in a pre-1900 era.

They are post 1900 creations, and were created by people who's first language was not Spanish. Because of those attempts to deceive, it seems logical that they don't lead to anything of value.

Two deceptions don't bode well for a truthful conclusion.

My conclusion is opinion. The rest of the post seems factual.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Ghostdog wrote

If they are fakes, then what are they copies of ?

and Bill96 wrote

if they are considered fakes the what are they fakes of?

Our amigo Cactusjumper has already explained, but to put in simple terms - they are fake TREASURE MAPS. You or I could create fake treasure maps and have no "original" we are copying from, as there is no need of any original for such a fake. A good example is play money - it is FAKE money, not a real attempt to copy genuine money but just a fake, a PROP.

There are lots and lots of treasure maps out there amigos, some of which have more "provenance" than our Peralta stones and may be true. You are sure welcome to go ahead and try your luck using the Peralta stones as maps to help you find treasures, and if you are successful I will be happy to congratulate you, but I believe you would have better odds playing any lottery.
Oroblanco

 

[ghostdog]

Ok then, Oro,Bill, Cactus,& group,I agree to disagree on why the map was or was not made , however why would the map maker{s}, produce these large maps{blocks},see original photo to get a idea of size, includeing the Heart stone,and then Bury them beside some lonely hiway. I theroize that they are very old,and were possibly being transported by Spanish mules when a indian attack occured and thus ended up at the found location. I have enclosed a photo of a Spanish "metate",that was dug up while searching for treasure in Texas. It was buried dureing the end of the Mexican revolution for Texas. Note the lettering, very similiar to other lettering on the Peralta Stones. My point for a possible maker timeline of the Peralta stones.

 

[BILL96]

I know we are beatiing this to death but it's slow this morning so bare with me.
It's just the bizzare concept of someone createing a "fake" treasure map and to me word "fake" means there is no treasure at the end of the trail, and then burying them and I assume with intent that they never to be found. Fake items turn up all the time that are promoted as true historical artifacts and the goal is usually money or publicity, unless Tumblinson lied about where and how he found them then theses "fake" maps were never intended to be found, they are just fake treasure maps that were created and buried. Whats the point of creating a fake if you can't show it to someone and maybe ask for money.

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

I don't think there is any right or wrong here, as we are all just offering our opinions. Your reasoning is sound and makes perfect sense to me.

If it were just some casual passerby who stumbled over the stones, I would be asking the same thing. It's the family connections that make me suspect there was something else afoot here.

We will probably never know all the details behind the Stone Maps. I am satisfied with my own conclusions, but still find others stories interesting.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Agreed - I don't have any bone to pick with Ghostdog, Bill96 or anyone whom is convinced the Peralta Stones are real maps to lost treasures. I was posting my opinions only, based on the info we have available and am NOT an expert on the Peralta Stones by any stretch. I think you are wasting your time with them, but it IS your time to spend!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

People DID make money on the Stones - just not as much as they wanted to, starting with Tumlinson's wife.


B

 

[gollum]

People DID make money on the Stones - just not as much as they wanted to, starting with Tumlinson's wife.


B

Beth,

Since it has been a while since all this was hashed out in my old Stone Maps Thread, I will reiterate it briefly here.

I spent MONTHS researching the history of the Stone Maps AFTER Tumlinson supposedly found them in 1949. I received information from several sources. Some of it was "trust me" type information, and some of it was copies of legal documents. I have also said it OVER and OVER and OVER.......Don't look at what was said. Look at what people did!"

1. Travis Tumlinson kept the stone maps pretty much secret for the years he first possessed them (1949-1956). When he got too sickly, he passed them to his brother (Robert).

2. His brother possessed them for several years, and NEVER attempted to sell them. The only person he ever told about them was his landlord in order for him to pay for several trips (four I think) from Oregon to the Supers to try and figure the secret. When he became too sickly, he passed the stone maps back to his brother (about 1960).

3. Travis Tumlinson, still to sickly to do anything with them, kept them a secret until his death in 1961.

SO FAR..... Neither Travis Tumlinson nor his brother Robert, in TWELVE YEARS of ownership NEVER attempted to sell them. THAT ALONE tells me that they both believed them to be authentic treasure maps. Pretty simple assumption.

4. After Robert Tumlinson passed away. his wife (Aileen) told an old family friend about the stone maps (Clarence O. Mitchell). Mitchell OFFERED to buy the stone maps for $1200. Aileen Tumlinson sold them to him. NOW.........would you (or anybody you know) sell something you knew or thought to be fake to an "old family friend"? I wouldn't.

5. Clarence O. Mitchell formed MOEL Inc. (MOEL= Mining, Oil, Exploration, and Leasing). The purpose of MOEL was Mineral and Oil Exploration and mining. Also leasing of mineral rich land to mining and oil companies. He kept the stone maps a complete secret (from all except his partners) from the time of his purchase in 1961 until 1964. It was around that time that "Travis Marlowe" came on the scene. Travis Marlowe was the ficticious "nom de plume" of none other than Clarence O. Mitchell. A LOT of people don't know that. It was at this time that the 12 June 1964 edition of Time Magazine featured an article about the Stone Maps. THAT'S when the proverbial sh... hit the fan.

6. I separated this section because it is a HUGE point of contention with many people regarding the authenticity of the stone maps. The story that most people have heard is that The SEC filed charges against MOEL Inc for illegally selling stocks using the stone maps to boost publicity and profits. THIS IS NOT TRUE!!!!!!! It is also said that the FBI confiscated the stone maps and took them to a Professor of Geology at the University of Redlands, Ca. I have not been able to verify that this happened, BUT Bob Corbin (the former Attorney General of the State of Arizona) stated that one day in 1964 (long story short), he saw the stone maps in the Justice Dept Office (in the possession of two FBI Agents). He was told by the agents that they had the stone maps inspected, and they believed that the stone maps were "AT LEAST" 100 years old.

Here is what REALLY happened:

MOEL Inc was indeed selling shares in the company. They had been doing that since MOEL'S formation. They had just not filed ONE form that was necessary for them to legally sell stock shares in the company during the year 1964. They were stopped from selling stock for a few weeks until their court hearing in Los Angeles in September of 1964 (I am on my laptop right now, and my copies of the legal documents are home on my desktop). The trial lasted for all of about ONE HALF OF A DAY! They basically showed up for court to prove that nothing fraudulent had happened. They then filed the proper form, and the issue was closed.

7. MOEL went about business as usual until about 1969 when the company started petering out. As part of a mutual agreement, Mitchell had an exact set of copies of the stone maps made, and he gave two originals and two copies to a partner, and he kept two originals and two copies. In 1971, Mitchell made a donation of the stone maps (for tax purposes) to the AL Flagg Foundation. They have been owned there, stored and shown by the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum. In the mid to late 1980s, the museum wanted to have a few sets of copies of the stone maps made, so they could be taken around the country and displayed without endangering the originals (they didn't know that only two were original). They contracted a special effects company from Phoenix (I believe) to make about four sets of copies. They actually made 8-10 copies and sold some. They then sold the molds to an artist in Laguna Beach, Ca, who made original size and half size copies. All-in-all, there were about 25 or so sets of copies the stone maps made. A good friend of mine has one of the sets of copies hanging on the wall of his office.

Hope this helps.

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Gollum,

Don't forget that, after Mitchell had his "day in court", so to speak, that one of his partners AGAIN had to be told to "cease and desist" - this time a month later (Mitchell in October, Kreiwald in November), so Moel Co didn't stop with the October 1964 problems, until the second one in November - the 16th, I believe.

Nobody - has yet proved that the stones were over 100 years old - that was just a statement from ONE person, but the fact of the matter is, all stone is over 100 years old, the stones had been washed/cleaned, so it would be impossible to make that assumption, PLUS, being part of the government, the stones would have fallen under the Antiquities Act and never would have been returned if they were, without a doubt, genuine, and over 100 years old.

I will add to that - that it has definitely had the earmarks of a case of who knew what and was associated with whom.

B

 

[gollum]

Gollum,

Don't forget that, after Mitchell had his "day in court", so to speak, that one of his partners AGAIN had to be told to "cease and desist" - this time a month later (Mitchell in October, Kreiwald in November), so Moel Co didn't stop with the October 1964 problems, until the second one in November - the 16th, I believe.

Nobody - has yet proved that the stones were over 100 years old - that was just a statement from ONE person, but the fact of the matter is, all stone is over 100 years old, the stones had been washed/cleaned, so it would be impossible to make that assumption, PLUS, being part of the government, the stones would have fallen under the Antiquities Act and never would have been returned if they were, without a doubt, genuine, and over 100 years old.

I will add to that - that it has definitely had the earmarks of a case of who knew what and was associated with whom.

B

Beth,

I trust the word of Bob Corbin. I don't personally know him, but I know people who do. They trust him, and then so do I. One thing you have to remember is that in 1964, the true origin of the stone maps was not public knowledge. If they were proven to have been dug up in Arizona, then yes, they would have fallen under the Antiquities Act. If Travis Tumlinson told them that he brought them up from Arizpe, Sonora, Mex.....hhhmmmmmm. Federal Authorities would have no jurisdiction over them. Remember that a very plausible story is that they were stolen from under the bed of the Arizpe Mission, and brought up to Texas and sold to Tumlinson's father "Pegleg" Tumlinson (his treasure hunting father).

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Too many "ifs" for me.

So, Tumlinson never said a word to anyone, but DID tell them (whoever "them" is) that they were stolen from Mexico? So, the government would let stolen property just "go away"? (or smuggled, stolen property, at best)?


I'm sorry, but I have to take Bob Corbin with a grain of salt - not because I don't trust him - but simply because he had the ability to do something about it, (he was an Attorney General, after all) and did not, PLUS, who was he really listening to? And, he if really knew the truth, why is there still a question - why did he not set anything straight? I cannot buy that.

I think Kollenborn was closer, when he said in his Chronicles that Clarence Mitchell used the Life article, on purpose, to get interest and money from investors.
Then Mitchell writes his own book in 1965? With pen-name Travis Marlowe? (Superstitions Treasures) More looking for money? (and only a few months after the SEC got after the Moel Corp?

And why would he get together with Tumlinson's wife to donate them to the Flagg Foundation? Maybe to wash their hands of the whole affair? After all, he was running out of places to get money from.

There have been more schemes with the Peralta Stones - certain people make money with them every single year, still. The Flagg Foundation, the Don's Club, The Museum, and more.

Heck, it is thought that 90% of the schemes involving the Supers involve the Peralta Stones.

Heck, Robert Simpson Jacob (Crazy Jake) bilked investors out of 30 MILLION dollars using the Peralta Stones. Pretty good chunk of change, heh? Those Stones do not have to lead to a gold treasure - they make millions just being around.

B

 

[ghostdog]

Mike,thanks for that imformation, it clears up a lot of questions for me regarding the Stones history, and for me confirms their originality . I did not see your post before but is sure is interesting.

 

[gollum]

Thanks GD.

Beth,

You make several statements that are not correct or have the timeline wrong.

1. I didn't say that he DEFINITELY said that to the FBI Agents. I used that only as a possibility. He could have told them ANYTHING that would have kept him out of the purview of the FBI or Arizona State Gov. We don't know because those files are sealed.

2. Bob Corbin was not the Attorney General at the time he saw the stone maps. He was just an attorney at the time. A friend who knew he was interested in the LDM told him the stone maps were there with FBI Agents.

3. Where did you hear that Mitchell got together with Aileen Tumlinson to donate the stone maps to the AM&M Museum?? I have never heard that before. Everything I have ever heard states that Mitchell donated the stone maps for a tax deduction.

NOT ONE of the OWNERS of the stone maps has ever perpetrated any frauds that involved them. It was only others who claimed to have some secret knowledge of the solution of the riddle of the stone maps.

I have also said this before...... I believe that the stone maps (at one time) led to either treasure or hidden mines. The fact that they were found all together (especially including the heart stone) makes it glaringly obvious (to me) that whatever the maps at one time led to has either been recovered or is no longer of any value. Just like the gold of Victorio Peak, NM. Uncle Sam removed all that in the 1960s and 1970s. Probably nothing left but some neat caves.

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Mike,


I understand that most of this is conjecture - Bob Corbin still had the power to follow it up - you know it, I know it. The fact that he may not have been the Attorney General at the time, means just about -0-. He had the power to follow it up with the FBI, OR follow it up after he became AG, but he didn't - since he was so involved and interested - why didn't he.

I don't believe I said that MOEL was prosecuted for fraud about the stones - but - Clarence/Travis Mitchell/Marlowe DID made money on the stones - without a doubt.
And, yes - many others perpetrated fraud using the Stones. But, like I said, I believe that it was no accident that Life got the story in 1964, I think it was Mitchell/Marlowe who gave the story on purpose, to gain some recognition - it just backfired on him.

I heard the Tumlinson's wife (widow) and Mitchell story through Tom Kollenborn, as did Tom say that MOEL was told to cease and desist or else they WOULD be prosecuted for fraud. (we know that Mitchell did plead guilty and paid a fine in October 1964, as did his partner Kreiwald in November of 1964) - more than a full month later.

I still do not believe that anyone, in their right mind, would lug around stone maps for a treasure, or anything else. Talk about not being able to hide something. (like a map on a piece of leather, for instance). First, it had to take awhile to make them - if they were real, it would have taken even longer - and, its not like they could have loaded them in their station wagon 100 years ago when they finished with them.

B

 

[gollum]

Who says that Corbin never followed up on the Stone Maps? People do lots of things they don't talk about. Especially when it comes to finding evidence of a rich lost gold mine (or mines). Possibly the same reason that Thomas Glover didn't publish the results of the matchbox ore sample. Same reason why many people keep LDM evidence close to their chests. Remember, Bob Corbin is a Dutch Hunter. It is also a possibility that the stone maps have absolutely nothing to do with the Peraltas, and he had little interest in them. Who knows.

I can actually fathom why it would have been done. If you have a paper or leather map at home, it is subject to being stolen, chewed by rats, or burned in a fire. If you possess only the heart stone, if it is stolen, it is meaningless, and since it is stone it wouldn't necessarily be damaged in a fire and rats would not chew on it.

You use the same exact route heading from Mexico into the Supers every year to work your mines. It would be simple enough to leave the stone maps in places where by themselves, they would lead to nothing, but when you collected them all on the way North, they led the way to your mines. On the way back home they would just be redeposited where they were picked up. Chances of someone finding one is a possibility, but finding all of them from separate hiding places is almost impossible. And even if they were all found, they would still be useless without the heart stone which was easily concealable to bring home every year. If the mines were as rich as they were supposed to be, I could easily see someone doing that.

Best-Mike

 

[ghostdog]

Mike, thanks again for takeing the time to post the history timeline. After reading your post a few times I feel more than ever the Original Stones are authenic and probaly did come from a old mission in Mexico.
I also theroize there may be more Stones not uncovered yet ,and I feel the Heart stone could actually be Aztec in nature, maybe a copy,or could be a original. The Aztecs excelled in this type of Hiroglphics. Its a good probablity Tumelson, made up made the story up of findeing the stones as cover so as not to reveal the true source and protect his fathers involvement in possibly stolen goods?. If I lived in Mexico I would be searching for more Peralta Stones.done/finished/drained and going for a cold beer.gd

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I didn't say Corbin didn't follow up on the Stone Maps - I said he was in a position to LEGALLY put it to rest, in one way or another, and he never did.

Why would you need to collect stone maps (or any map) to take on your way to a mine you have been to every year? I don't understand that statement.

I gotta say, though - if I was a Dutch Hunter ( ), and I had been working with 2 friends on finding it, and one of my friends called me up and said "I figured it out, come with me", I'd be packing my bags.

The Stones, and I believe this is the only realistic conclusion, is that they were fake, that would have been made by only a handful, a small handful of people. The best, and highest on the list, especially if they are older - would have been done in the process of one Reavis trying to claim everything belonged to him. My second 2 guesses would be a couple of writers we all know.

The Peralta Stones, imo, and with much of the same "held close to the chest" information that you probably have - has absolutely nothing to do with the LDM or its whereabouts.

B

One thing Matt said is a little troubling, though. He said he saw (Bob), the actual stone report - but...............................