Truth about LDM?

[gollum]

B,

Who is Matt? Who said they saw the Stone Report? Bob Corbin only said that he spoke to the FBI Agents, and they said that it was the opinion of the FBI that the stone maps were at least 100 years old.

I have heard two versions of what happened. In one, the FBI took the stone maps to the University of Arizona, and in the other, they went to the University of Redlands, Ca. I have been unable, so far, to verify either version, so I have reserved judgement on that part.

As far as having maps. If we follow the logic of your statement, then why bother to make maps at all? I mean if the family knows where their treasure is hidden, why bother? Easy. It is for those that follow. In case dad dies, then someone else can go behind him, and use the knowledge to recover what was hidden? Follow the logic:

1. Going North to the location of the fist stone. Keep the heart stone in possession at all times.

2. When you caravan into the mountains every Fall, if you don't need the stone maps, then don't dig them up or use them. Leave them be. If you need them, dig them up, and write down whats on them. On the way out, destroy what you have written. Hide the stone maps in such a way that each one leads to the next.

If they are authentic, they seem to have been VERY successful at keeping their secret! HAHAHA If they were fakes, I have said all along that they were most likely made by Reavis, and he was busted before being able to use them to bolster his case. When he was arrested, whoever held them may have just dumped them all in one spot where they lay for about 70 years until 1949 when they were found.

Best-Mike

 

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[cactusjumper]

GD,

"I feel the Heart stone could actually be Aztec in nature, maybe a copy,or could be a original. The Aztecs excelled in this type of Hiroglphics."

I have spent a lot of time on Aztec culture and their codices. Don't recall ever seeing a heart shape. In any case, the writing is a white man's attempt at Spanish/Mexican. The stones have nothing to do with anything Aztec.

The horse and priest drawings are a cartoonish style taken from around the 1940's. The profile of the priest's face is a dead ringer for Chuck Aylor. All of that points out a likely suspect for the creator of those particular "maps".

The original heart shape probably originated in Africa. It's an interesting history, that I looked into around three years ago.

If you would like to pursue your theory, I would be happy to recommend some good books on the subject of the Aztec's.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

B,

I don't know where TK got anything about a second hearing against Kriewald. He was named in the September Litigation Release along with Clarence O Mitchell and Grace G Mitchell. There was only one trial.

I will quote here from the SEC Litigation Release #3040 dated September 28, 1964:

.....the defendants made use of the mails and facilities of interstate commerce in the offer and sale of securities, namely, capital stock of MOEL Inc., AND THAT NO REGISTRATION STATEMENT AS TO THE SECURITIES WAS IN EFFECT OR HAD BEEN FILED WITH THE COMMISSION as required by the Securities Act of 1933.

This was the only litigation brought against them. If I am mistaken, please show me otherwise. Until then, I will go by the official SEC statements I have.

Best-Mike

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

In those days, as well as today, many magazines paid pretty good money for interesting stories. I would say the Stone Maps was plenty interesting.

Do you personally know any stories where someone tried to sell a phony bill of goods, and the story never saw the light of day/publication? I do, and my guess is that you know more stories like that than I do.

We don't know if the Stone Map story was hawked to Hollywood/movie/television, or hardback book. They would hardly have advertised that they were turned down. Most of those folks would have asked for that "Redlands" report. You were about to find that thing a number of years ago. Can you tell us what happened?

Don't mean any disrespect by my posts, just trying to pry out the truth on these subjects. The only way to do that is to question the "facts" until they hollar.

Take care,

Joe

 

[ghostdog]

Hey guys no matter what the truth, I like the story, and I"m gonna write a script useing my version and pitch it to Hollywood. I believe it has some teeth to it....gdproductions

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Why is it that whenever these Peralta Stones get injected into a discussion, it always degenerates into the divided camps of believers and disbelievers? It seems that when a person comes to believe they are genuine, this belief is un-shakeable even if some leaps of logic and all kinds of scenarios have to be invented to keep that mythos alive. Likewise, when a person becomes convinced they are frauds, no amount of possible explanations will sway. Regardless of WHICH story of the genesis of these stones you choose to believe, here is the root of MY problem with them.

As for the basis of the Peralta Stones being "at least 100 years old" here is Gollum's quote,

Here are the words of Mr. Robert Corbin. The former Attorney General of the State of Arizona;

"It was approximately in the late 1960's, I believe, that I was at the
U.S. Attorneys office in Phoenix, when one of the Deputy U.S. Attorneys
told me that an FBI agent from the FBI laboratory in Washington DC was
in their office. Apparently, the Phoenix office had obtained the stone
maps to have them analyzed by the FBI laboratory to see if they were
recent fakes. He asked if I would like to speak with the agent since I
was interested in the Lost Dutchman Mine and I said I would. I spoke
with the agent and asked him what they had found in analyzing the stone
maps. He told me that they believed the maps were at least a hundred
years old. To my recollection that's all he said about the maps.

Bob Corbin"

<from http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,47594.msg343771.html#msg343771>

In court they would call this "HEARSAY" - Corbin telling us the words he heard from another person, with no scientific testing whatever. When compared with the statements of OTHERS who actually examined them, here is what they said.
_________________________________________________
From Father Charles Polzer, SJ, a recognized Arizona historian,

Upon close examination, Father Polzer found that the surface of the stones had been milled with modern machinery before the drawings were inscribed thereon. And he went on to say, "…the drawings were cut into the stones with modern tools. The language and lettering is modern, if somewhat illiterate Spanish, clearly not colonial Spanish. The heart shape drawn on stone #3 is strictly of Northern European or Anglo character; Spaniards never depicted the idea of a heart with this kind of geometry." He went on at length describing more discrepancies, and in the end he concluded that, "…the stone carvings are a hoax of relatively recent origin."

Now our believers will howl "BIAS" since Polzer was a Jesuit, but is this really justified? What on the Peralta Stones would link absolutely to the Jesuits, which would require that Polzer should lie about it? Nothing on them is specifically Jesuit and absolutely Jesuit. However Father Polzer is not the only person who examined them so we don't have to be concerned that he may have been biased.
Three experts were involved, Research Archaeologist Dr. Jenny Adams, Research Geologist Dr. Elizabeth Miksa, and Historical Archaeologist Homer Thiel. Here are some extracts on what their conclusions were:

1. "There is no evidence that the stones were ever buried."

2. "The dark stones were mechanically sanded and then drilled.........In many places, there is a 'start dimple' where the drill first touched the stone."

3. "The use of an electric drill to create the drawings and symbols............dates their carving to sometime after 1940."
(Dr. Adams)

4. ......"the Peralta Stones originated far from where they were supposedly found."

5. "The big stone with the horse appears to be Coconino Sandstone,...... The other two sandstones are very soft, very fine, iron-rich ...sandstones. [These] are most likely found on the Mogolon Rim or in northern Arizona." (Dr. Miksa)

6. "The lettering is completely wrong for the Spanish language documents of the [supposed] time period." (Prof. Thiel)

When we have FOUR experts examine some evidence and they ALL concur that it is FALSE, that is enough for me not to wish to expend any further time trying to use it as a guide to find lost treasures.

Now amigos you are certainly free and welcome to believe in the Peralta Stones as genuine maps to hidden treasures and/or mines, but even so, consider this fact - that Tumlinson used them to search the Superstitions for years without finding any treasures OR mines. Many others have followed suit. So even if they ARE genuine, and this would mean the experts are ALL wrong, then there is some fatal flaw in them. Why spend your valuable time using these very questionable stones to search, when there are far better and more reliable methods at your disposal?

I won't keep pestering you folks with this, if you choose NOT to trust the various experts whom have studied the Peralta Stones then it is your choice, it is a matter almost of "faith" and no amount of logic, expert opinions or reasoning will change that. Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Joe,

You can't prove a negative. I think that the Tumlinson had ever attempted to hawk the stones, that story would have come out a long time ago. I will have to go on the assumption that everything I know about the stone maps since 1949 is correct until I proven wrong.

The Archive Secretary at Redlands University contacted Jane Dana. She asked that I write her with my request. I did so during the holiday season a couple of years ago, and never heard back from her. Talk about funny coincidences.....I just finished another letter to her this afternoon. I dug her address out of my old emails.

The new letter will go out tomorrow. I'll let you know what happens.

One thing that Archive Secretary said to me was that Steven Dana's Research Asst. told her that he thought Steve did that project independent of the University, but wasn't certain.

Best-Mike.

 

[gollum]

Roy,

You also seem, to keep missing the part where Mitchell had a set of copies made in 1969 to satisfy his partner in getting two real and two copies. Also, in the late 1980s the AM&M Museum had several sets of copies made (these were not exact copies as they were cast and not carved.

1. "There is no evidence that the stones were ever buried."

You seem to omit the finding part of the story that Charlie Miller told both Al Reser and Don Shade, that when Tumlinson first brought the stone maps by his house, they still had little roots growing out of all the grooves.

Thomas Glover's LDM Book pg# 338

I know I can't convince anyone with a closed mind, but I keep stating the facts of the story that are known.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Gollum wrote

You also seem, to keep missing the part where Mitchell had a set of copies made in 1969 to satisfy his partner in getting two real and two copies. Also, in the late 1980s the AM&M Museum had several sets of copies made (these were not exact copies as they were cast and not carved

I am not "missing" the copies amigo, but are you saying that the experts named examined COPIES and NOT the originals? The copies were CAST, the examples which were examined had clear tool marks. The copies are irrelevant.

Gollum also wrote

You seem to omit the finding part of the story that Charlie Miller told both Al Reser and Don Shade, that when Tumlinson first brought the stone maps by his house, they still had little roots growing out of all the grooves.

I did not omit that to be humorous amigo, for we have ZERO proof that such roots were ever present, and we have the story that the stones were rigorously scrubbed clean, which would leave few or no roots for the experts to examine. Are you taking the position that all four of these named experts are lying or mistaken? Thank you in advance,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

PS - Do you deny that Tumlinson used the Peralta Stones to search for treasures or mines in the Superstition mountains and had ZERO success? Again thank you in advance,

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"It seems that when a person comes to believe they are genuine, this belief is un-shakeable even if some leaps of logic and all kinds of scenarios have to be invented to keep that mythos alive."

Around 35 (or so) years ago, I became totally convinced that the Stone Maps were the real thing and led to Jesuit treasure. Every single research rock I turned over only led me farther down that path. Some have said, that not finding treasure is the only thing that changed my mind. They casually throw out the fact that I was constantly researching the other side of my belief.

That being said, I have no problem with those who are just as convinced as I was 35 years ago. I can understand their fever. It took many years of digging to cool mine. I knew I had read the maps correctly, just didn't know what I would find. Eventually the evidence started to slowly pile up against the stones. In time, the identity of the creator(s) came into focus. While each and every piece of that evidence is circumstantial, their combined weight is compelling. I could, of course, be wrong.

I know Bob Corbin, and have complete trust in his word. For those who have never spent any time with the man, your opinions may be lacking some important personal insight. All of us tend to rush to judge those and that which we don't know.

I would suggest that those who still believe in the Stone Maps, research the opposing side of your belief. It may be that you will find something that no one else could find. Good luck!

So in closing, my friend, I believe you have thrown me in with the unshakeable believers. I am living proof that your premiss is less than accurate, and you need a slightly smaller brush.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

uhuhuh

The copies the AM&M Museum had made in the late 1980s were cast. NOT the first set that Mitchell had. From my source, the stone map copies he had made were exactly like the originals. It is entirely possible that the four scientists examined the two copies.

You said that there was no evidence that the stone maps had ever been buried, but that is not quite so, is it? We have the word of one person who saw the stone maps right after they were supposedly found. The man told the same story to two people. We also have the word of Travis Tumlinson. While it might not be hard evidence, it is enough to put a person in jail! UNless you can PROVE that either Charlie Miller or Travis Tumlinson were dishonest people?

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I know exactly what you think of the stone maps.

While I believe somewhat differently, I hold the firm opinion that they were at least 100 years old in 1964. The word of the FBI is good enough for me.

Now, I have two possibilities:

1. They were faked for use in the Reavis Land Grant Fraud, and were all dumped before they could be publicized (even though they would only be about 80 at that time is close enough).

2. They at one time, led to something(s) very valuable. But the fact that ALL the stones were dumped together tells me that whatever they led to is now gone or worthless.

The only value the stone maps have for me is strictly historical in nature. I may be wrong on both counts, but that is where I stand on the subject.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

I believe you have thrown me in with the unshakeable believers. I am living proof that your premiss is less than accurate, and you need a slightly smaller brush.

Perhaps you misread what I posted, I did say it SEEMS, not it is an absolute fact. I stand with the same brush.

Gollum wrote

You said that there was no evidence that the stone maps had ever been buried, but that is not quite so, is it?

Read more carefully amigo - I did not say that, all of the statements I posted were the words of Research Archaeologist Dr. Jenny Adams, Research Geologist Dr. Elizabeth Miksa, and Historical Archaeologist Homer Thiel - NOT my own.

I see that you carefully avoided answering the questions I posed to you Mike, an oversight I will presume due to the intensity of the subject matter. Here were my questions.

1. Are you taking the position that all four of these named experts are lying or mistaken?

2. Do you deny that Tumlinson used the Peralta Stones to search for treasures or mines in the Superstition mountains and had ZERO success? I thank you in advance,

Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

The first question was easily answered in my post: I BELIEVE THAT THE SCIENTISTS EXAMINED THE COPIES THAT MITCHELL HAD MADE IN 1969.

I have told the story of Travis and Robert Tumlinson several times including today here. Did I say anywhere that either Travis or Robert found anything despite twelve or so trips to Az by Travis or in four or more trips by Robert? No I did not. Your question was answered before you asked it.

The story in those sixteen or so trips into the Superstitions is that both of the Tumlinson brothers were firm believers in the authenticity of the stone maps.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Gollum wrote

Your question was answered before you asked it.

I beg to differ, you had not answered my questions. I will point this up.

Gollum wrote

The first question was easily answered in my post: I BELIEVE THAT THE SCIENTISTS EXAMINED THE COPIES THAT MITCHELL HAD MADE IN 1969.

Well amigo I re-read your posts, and this is what I found, quote

It is entirely possible that the four scientists examined the two copies.

end quote

Maybe it is my reading of it, but those two statements are VERY different. Saying "it is possible they examined" is not the same as saying "I believe they did examine" in my book. Not trying to be nit-picky, just want clarity in this most cloudy subject so I understand you better!

I am a little surprised at your conclusion, for there is a major flaw in this line of reasoning that all the experts examined were mere copies. Has it not occurred to you, this problem I am referring to? Let me ask you this, if these same experts had made statements confirming the antiquity and genuine-ness of the stones, would you think they possibly could have been examining COPIES?

Gollum also wrote

I have told the story of Travis and Robert Tumlinson several times including today here. Did I say anywhere that either Travis or Robert found anything despite twelve or so trips to Az by Travis or in four or more trips by Robert? No I did not.

No, you did not say they found anything, I was asking you if you deny that they failed to find anything - it is an important fact for anyone whom wishes to use these Peralta Stones to search for treasures, to keep in mind that those who first had possession (of record) already tried it, repeatedly, unsuccessfully. All the rest is window dressing as far as the value of these curiosities as maps to hidden treasures, they have not produced.

Good luck and good hunting Mike (and everyone) I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike and Roy,

"You seem to omit the finding part of the story that Charlie Miller told both Al Reser and Don Shade, that when Tumlinson first brought the stone maps by his house, they still had little roots growing out of all the grooves."

Dr. Glover likely got this story from Al Reser, who was a good friend. He respected Al, and would never have doubted his word. I am sure of that. On the other hand, it was Charlie Miller who told Al the story. Do you know which maps it was that Miller helped Tumlinson clean? Do you have any idea why Tumlinson never mentioned having a friend helping him clean the stones? Do you know why he never mentioned taking the stones to a friend's house in Arizona?

Don Shade wrote a book in 1994. His chapter on "The Stone Tablets" begins on page 87. In that chapter he fails to mention Charlie Miller's story. On the other hand he does write this:

"A group of individuals formed a corporation and sold stock for the purpose of obtaining funds to underwrite the search for the treasure supposedly depicted on the tablets. Not registering with the proper authorities prior to selling stock in the corporation, the group found themselves in litigation. a judge dissolved the corporation and turned the tablets over to the Flagg Foundation of Phoenix, Arizona. In a recent conversation with Mr. E. C. Flagg, he indicated that I could refer to these tablets in this book. At the present time, they are on display at the Mesa Southwest Museum in Mesa, Arizona."

While I would be happy to accept Al Reser's word, I have my doubts about Don Shade and Charlie Miller. It would seem that Don Shade did not have all of the facts in his book. I don't know anything about Charlie Miller, but believe I could find out a great deal. He is not an important figure in the Tumlinson pamphlet, in fact.......he is not a character at all.

Just thinking out loud, so to speak, here. Carry on.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"The first question was easily answered in my post: I BELIEVE THAT THE SCIENTISTS EXAMINED THE COPIES THAT MITCHELL HAD MADE IN 1969."


The maps that the archaeologist's examined were stone, not plaster cast copies. I believe they were more than qualified to tell the difference.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Come on Joe, you're killing me here. Read my previous post #90. I answered that very same question for Roy!

The copies of the stone maps that Mitchell had made to split with his partner were engraved, not cast. I think that if Mitchell had tried to donate cast copies of the stone maps, they would have easily been spotted and his deal for a big tax break would never have materialized.

The only cast copies started being made in the mid-late 1980s.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Sorry Mike,

I fanned that part. So you are saying that there were two sets of stone carved maps made by Mitchell. Personally, I think that looks bad, and it would be interesting to know your source for that information.

I don't disagree with you that the archaeologist could have been examining copies. Had they made their conclusions only on the physical evidence of the stone slabs, your point would be valid.

They took many other factors into consideration. Artistic style, lettering, spelling and grammer. They were highly qualified to make those conclusions.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Mitchell had ONE set of copies made. One set of engraved copies. He gave two originals and two copies to one of his partners and kept two originals and two copies for himself. What the scientists looked at were two copies and two originals (if they actually examined all four). My source asked not to be named in open forum, but you know him and trust his word on the stone maps. Hope that helps.

The other things you mentioned that they examined about the stone maps have no bearing at all on their authenticity. If the stone maps were telling an historical story (like an official historical placard on a building), then we could compare spelling and grammar to known examples of the period. Remember, these are supposed to be secret maps guiding the way to mines or treasures. With such maps, one should expect most things on them to be heavily coded (including words and pictures). I say this because I possess a few authentic treasure maps. One of the family's caches has been recovered (mostly by accident). You can work out the map backwards from the known location of the cache back to the family estate. On every one of these maps, there are serious misspellings and strangely shaped letters. Some serve a very specific purpose, and some are just mistakes.

Also, I trust the person because I have gotten a wealth of actual documents concerning the stone maps history from him.

Best-Mike