Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

There is interest in the subject, so I see no harm in continuing the conversation.

"I would also point out that in the newspaper article cited (it was run in other newspapers as well, with slight variations in the amount of detail rather than factual differences) it was a Jesuit priest whom recovered the treasure; do you think that a Jesuit priest would be likely to bring forward Jesuit treasure to have it authenticated? I kind of doubt that."

I agree that it would be illogical for a Jesuit to have the treasure authenticated. At the same time, it would be illogical for a Jesuit Priest to roll into town, announce that he is a Jesuit, and talk about locating and removing a Jesuit treasure from Tumacacori.

None of the physical details mentioned about the mission could have been true. Other than that, It was a fine yarn. The fact that other newspapers picked up the story has no bearing, for me, as to it's truthfulness. Newspapers have often been accused of not letting the truth/facts get in the way of a good story.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Treasure Seeker1312]

GD,

Father Kino's "Dolores" Mission is located in the old settlement of Cosari. It's location is well known and marked by a small campo santo, which can be identified by the grave sites. For anyone wishing to visit the location of Nuestra Senora de los Dolores de Cosari, I will be happy to provide exact directions on request.

Father Kino chose the "Dolores" name, "On account of the noble picture of Nuestra Senora de los Dolores, which some months previously, in May, with his very Christian piety was given me by the excellent painter, Juan Correa....". As I have mentioned before, this is how many of the paintings as well as gold and silver church fixtures were acquired by the Jesuits. Kino was quite famous and had many rich benefactors.

Despite the polite gushing's of some of the mission's visitors (visitador, Antonio Leal), it was actually "A big church....curiously adorned and painted, made of adobe with a flat roof" (Father Velarde) "Ungraceful" was the impression given. Father Kino recognized that it was not his best effort, aesthetically, in building a church.

I can assure you the location has been well trod by treasure hunters through the years.

Take care,

Joe

Hey joe,

I would appreciate any information, as somehow I ran across articles stating that Delores mission was renamed St Francis Mission, Then renamed San xavier Delbac up By Tucson, which led me to believe that the origional San xavier delbac site was really Delores.- I am now confused. kinos diaries put it at roughly 32 degrees north, which is close to the san xavier delbac mission. they also speak of a military site on the large ranch just north of tumacacorri.

Another question I have is that when we visited the current site of The San Xavier Del Bac, They told us that the origional mission was south of the current one. Don't know if this this is true.
However if this is true. I notice just as the tumacacorri both new missions were built to the north within a few miles.

Question:

Is this a pattern for the jesuits to always build north of the origional sites, If so, can you or anyone else tell me any reasoning in the thought for this. And are all the current sites built just north of the origional ones. I would appreciate any comments from anyone on this matter. Thanks

Treasure Seeker 1312

 

[Treasure Seeker1312]

T.S.,

If I were going to search for the original location of San Cayetano del Tumacacori, I would look very close to the area I have marked on this map. It may be that I have placed it too far to the west, and the actual location is on the east side of Pendleton Road, but the site will be on "a flat terrace overlooking Josephine Canyon".

One other point: Whoever made up that story about the priest and Tumacacori, knew nothing about the mission's history. Despite that, it is still being repeated, as if some kind of evidence, today.

Good Luck,

Joe

Thanks Joe. I believe I saw a post on this website somewhere showing a pic and that it was on the east side. However being perhaps more of a newbe, i see no Reason to check out both areas (Inqusitive).

For Those who wish to know where I have been seeking information From there is a several hundred page document from a Mexican Library that is in pdf format. The document they say is suppose to be a pdf of the father kinos, diaries, I do have some doubts, as it gives reference to him in a 3rd party context.

However for a newbie I will Look at it. I was told not to translate with bablefish, But i apologize my luangage is limmited to english. So Therefore bablefish is all I have. My thought is all translation can not be wrong. So Therefore I may be able to pick up some information.

"As they say go to the source!."

I Currently have 43 pages done, For Those who have not read this document. It is supposose to be called


FAVORES CELESTIALES DE JESÚS Y DE MARÍA SANTÍSIMA
Y DEL
GLORIOSISSIMO APÓSTOL DE LAS YNDIAS, FRANCISCO XAVIER

And can be found at the following Link:

Happy interpetation:

http://descargas.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/01361737650147276032679/031750_0001.pdf

 

[ghostdog]

Some side notes,to this thread,Kino makes no mention of mineing in his diary, though one might find more clues in Manages diary,but not the watered down version. In 1822 Father Liberos removed the remains of Father Gutierrez and Carillo,from the old church to the new.What else did he remove?unknown.The original mission was on the East bank of the Santa Cruz river,southern Arizona. Two other interesting lost mines to look for in the area, Escalante,and the Indian so called mine with the Iron Door.A adobe smelter,with gold silver and copper bullion was found dureing a excavation by government officials in 1935. gd luck in your hunts.

 

[Treasure Seeker1312]

Some side notes,to this thread,Kino makes no mention of mineing in his diary, though one might find more clues in Manages diary,but not the watered down version. In 1822 Father Liberos removed the remains of Father Gutierrez and Carillo,from the old church to the new.What else did he remove?unknown.The original mission was on the East bank of the Santa Cruz river,southern Arizona. Two other interesting lost mines to look for in the area, Escalante,and the Indian so called mine with the Iron Door.A adobe smelter,with gold silver and copper bullion was found dureing a excavation by government officials in 1935. gd luck in your hunts.

Thanks for your reply, It does mention of other missions and military outpost, which might be valuable information to historians as well as other treasure hunters for reference though.
As ghostdog happy hunting to all

TS 1312

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,
This got to be a very long reply so I must ask your indulgence, or just skip ahead.
Cactusjumper wrote

One other point: Whoever made up that story about the priest and Tumacacori, knew nothing about the mission's history. Despite that, it is still being repeated, as if some kind of evidence, today.

Whoever MADE UP that story? If you look at the very map you just posted here, you will see that the original mission WAS up in the hills, not down on the river flats. Still repeated, "as if" it is some kind of evidence? We might well say the same about the Jesuit denials, just keep denying everything, regardless of what comes up and maybe everyone will believe it.

I would also point out that I did not present this newspaper article AS evidence, as much as you would denigrate it as such, I only said it was a REPORT.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Roy,

There is interest in the subject, so I see no harm in continuing the conversation.

<Oroblanco wrote>

"I would also point out that in the newspaper article cited (it was run in other newspapers as well, with slight variations in the amount of detail rather than factual differences) it was a Jesuit priest whom recovered the treasure; do you think that a Jesuit priest would be likely to bring forward Jesuit treasure to have it authenticated? I kind of doubt that."

I agree that it would be illogical for a Jesuit to have the treasure authenticated. At the same time, it would be illogical for a Jesuit Priest to roll into town, announce that he is a Jesuit, and talk about locating and removing a Jesuit treasure from Tumacacori.

None of the physical details mentioned about the mission could have been true. Other than that, It was a fine yarn. The fact that other newspapers picked up the story has no bearing, for me, as to it's truthfulness. Newspapers have often been accused of not letting the truth/facts get in the way of a good story.

Take care,

Joe

Did you read the same article? Where did it say that the Jesuit went into town and "announced" to everyone that he was Jesuit? Didn't it say that he chose "trusted men" including a judge? Isn't the description of the original mission that it is a SMALL building, not a huge or impressive edifice? A "fine yarn"? Sheesh Joe you are starting to sound like Lamar.

There must not have ever been any Jesuit mines or treasures, for there never were any Jesuits. All the mines found by the early Anglos must not have existed, and there were no missions, it is all a made up story. In fact, when the Jesuits were rounded up in New Spain, they were not found to have 725,000 head of cattle, 47,000 oxen, 99,000 horses, 230,000 sheep, 14,000 mules, and 8,000 donkeys; the many millions in gold and silver discovered in Jesuit accounts by Europeans during the Suppression must be more made up treasure-hunter fiction; the La Compana Jesuit church in Quito, Ecuador doesn't REALLY display seven TONS of gold either, that is all made up by treasure hunters.

Actually all kidding aside, I am not sure what we have to debate; the Jesuit apologist side has the backing of the US Park Service and most all modern historians, not to mention the works of Father Polzer. Only a crazed treasure hunter would say that all those authorities are wrong after all, right? Political correct-ness is the Order of the day, it is offensive to cast such aspersions on the Jesuits and borders on flaming Anti-catholicism; just ask our amigo Lamar. The Indians are all liars, we must not accept one word of what they have told us, for they were only telling us what we wanted to hear and to increase tourism; again refer to our apologists for all information and ignore everything else.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

GD & TS,

Not being a native Spanish speaker, I am limited to the best English translation of "LUZ DE TIERRA INCOGNITA" I could find. Even though Francisco Fernandez del Castillo's copy of Juan Mateo Manje's diary is available, I am satisfied that Harry Karns produced a faithful translation of the Castillo (in Spanish) book. I am also confident that Castillo accurately copied Manje's original work. If that were not true in both cases, I believe Mexican historians would have found the mistakes and publicized them.

While any number of competent and respected archaeologists have "found" the original location of Tumacacori, in different locations, I am most convinced by the work of Deni J. Seymour. Seymour's syndetic approach of using all of the different sources and methodologies available, creates a convincing argument for his conclusions. That is backed up by his excellent field work.

At some point, I feel, we must trust the people who have made a life's work of our research/hobby. The only way to verify that trust is to....
In the end, after reading all of the accounts and conclusions we can obtain, if we are lucky, a small inkling of the "truth" may come our way.

Good hunting,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Sorry Roy,

No personal attack on you was intended.

"If you look at the very map you just posted here, you will see that the original mission WAS up in the hills, not down on the river flats."

You have changed the wording a bit here:

"After obtaining the necessary information the Jesuit priest gathered together a party of trusted men and followed the trail to the Tumacacori mission, situated well up in the mountains."

It may be that you are looking at the treasure chest I placed on the west side of the river. That is the location that T.S. posted coordinates for. There is little doubt that the old mission was on the east side of the river.

Hope all is well for you and Beth.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I have walked and ridden over the exact spot you placed the chest you mention many times. A few of my friends have been over the spot hundreds (if not thousands) of times (literally). If there were ANY trace of the old mission anywhere near there they would have found it. After all, they have been looking for that treasure for MANY YEARS.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

The ONLY ruins that are "up in the hills" are in Peck Canyon on the West Side of the river. They are called Camp Loco on USGS Maps.

Best-Mike

 

[ghostdog]

Just a little more imfo,from my research and personal perspective, I believe that a large part of the mission is under the river,and what isn"t is buried very deep. Unless you are me,dont go tearing up the countryside without properly issued permits,that is very bad table manners. On another aside, Kenworthy is el-gonno,so anything said about him and his supposid historical silver bar treasure finds,is strictly hearsay.Tons of faked relics have been showing up on the collectable market for hundreds of years,Mexico being a prime supplier. due to the swing shift.

 

[lgadbois]

The location of the original Tumacacori church has been unnecessarily beat to death. This discussion on the original location has no connection with the mines of the Molina document.

We do not have proof of the origination of the Molina. We do have some facts that seem to agree with the information in the Molina.
1. There is a large tailing pile and mine at Camp Loco
2. The location of this mine and others named in the Molina are shown on the map
3. We don't know when any of these mines were operated, but due to the language of the Molina
the geographic names used indicate the document was written most likely after 1740.
4. At least three caches of gold and silver ingots have been found near these mines.
5. The map showing mine locations may have been created much later than the Molina, and the
located mines may not be the ones named in the Molina.

The mine at Camp Loco may not be the the Tumacacori Mine or the Virgin of Guadalupe Mine. This mine may be the Old Sopori. The mine was a big operation. There were eight or more buildings on the site with a dam, a good water supply, and was naturally protected by the rugged terrain. Attempts to locate the Old Sopori and the dore bars stored there occured during the early 1800s by explorers from Mexico City.

Now here are some speculative thoughts: Since the major church decorative and altar objects have never been found following the 1767 arrest and deportation of the Jesuits, perhaps the objects of gold and silver were stored in secret locations that are yet to be discovered. It is also possible that the items were taken by individual members of the various churches and visitas, and that the items were eventually destroyed and used for family income.

The geographic names to places listed in the Molina could as easily relate to the mineral rich areas to the east of the Santa Cruz River. For example, where is the likely location for the Pass of Janos? Some have said it is the Ruby Road and Walker Canyon to the west of the Santa Cruz River. The Janos Indians never frequented that area. It is likely that the Pass of Janos is south and east of the old town of Santa Cruz. There are some old maps with names of San Ramon being associated with tributaries to the San Pedro River. The areas between the Santa Cruz River and the San Pedro and to the south are filled with rich mineral deposits, in contrast to the the mining areas west of the Santa Cruz River which had only a few paying mines.

For those that are interested in the mission trips of Kino, Bolton put together an interesting map of Pimeria Alta in 1918. The link:

http://www.saguaro-juniper.com/i_and_i/history/early_history/bolton_1918_map.htm

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"I have walked and ridden over the exact spot you placed the chest you mention many times. A few of my friends have been over the spot hundreds (if not thousands) of times (literally). If there were ANY trace of the old mission anywhere near there they would have found it. After all, they have been looking for that treasure for MANY YEARS."

As I said, that is not the location of the original "Tumacacori".......In my opinion. That was, however, the coordinates that T.S. provide in his post. I believe the original location was, pretty much, directly across the river on the east side.

"After the arrival of the treasure seekers at the mission the queer looking bundle of the Jesuit was again opened and the Spanish lines were again scanned for a more definite description as to where the treasure was hidden. Following the directions the party proceeded to the little mission church and the floor of the church, which was of huge blocks of granite, was taken up."

The above passage from the newspaper article is another huge red flag. The Jesuits never built a proper mission church at the original location of Tumacacori, "small" or large. What they had were small native huts with dirt floors, as far as I know.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Hey Joe,

There was actually a Mission built at Tumacacori.

Lgadbois,

Maybe you could show me a mine near the tailings pile? Everybody for the last 200 years must have missed it. Glad you caught it. I'll tell you something else about the tailings pile; maybe you can explain why, when tested, none of the tailings showed any valuable mineral content? If they were mine tailings from a rich silver or gold mine, they would have contained gold, silver, or both. They contained neither.

Ghost Dog,

Hearsay to you maybe. The hole they came out of is still there to this day.

Best-Mike

 

[ghostdog]

Gollum,I have no argument with your last reply. On another, I"M still sticking to my theory what hasn"t been found at Tumincari is buried very deep,and some is "under" the river,not in it. I believe there has to be at least 10 to 13 smelters that have not been located,probably filled with ore,and next to storage rooms.And what about the copper box,filled with the unknown,,maybe maps. Good point about the non-mineral bearing balast pile,could be a another very logical reason for that.gotta go,gd

 

[lgadbois]

I'm going to weigh in on this topic of the Tumacacori locations. Joe is right. The location was originally a Visita that was located north of Guevavi about 10 miles on the east side of the river. The proof is in Kino's maps that clearly show the location on the east side of the river. The mission trail north from Guevavi as well as the village was located on the east side of the river. A short distance to the north of the San Cayetano Visita was a wide spot in the river where the trail crossed to continue north.

But Joe, you are not very careful when discussing subjects in the context which they are presented by other posters. And sometimes your answers get sarcastic and personally offensive. I guess it is easier for some people to speak their mind and apologize after the fact.

We know very little about the small church that was built next to the mine at Camp Loco. We don't know when it was built, or who built it. There are religious symbols carved on the rocks including a cross and what some claim is the face of Christ. Milton Rose, as well as Mitchell and Pepper, referred to the "upper mission" in some of their writings. This little church is about 4 miles west of the existing mission and located at a higher elevation in Javelina Canyon. The area is loaded with drill holes for landmark pointers, and it has been claimed that more than one monument rock has been found that was engraved with maps of the area. The map that has been circulated with the Molina is most likely a copy of the map that was found on the monument 200 varas from the entrance to the mine. It would be great if someone could come up with a picture of the map on that monument. Gil Proctor took a photograph, but he did not publish it. Gil's family closed his museum shortly after his death, and a lot of the historic stuff was discarded or lost. Some have claimed that the Camp Loco site was built and mined in the late 1500s or early in 1600s, but I doubt it.

Gary Oliver thinks that the remains of this small church may be the oldest Euro structure in Arizona. (Speaking of Gary, he hasn't lived in Portland for some time. He lives in Washington State.) He is determined to find the main tunnel of the mine at Camp Loco, but most of the doors that would allow him to continue his quest have been closed.

I am hoping that the original source for the Molina document will surface. Milton Rose had it, and it was stolen in a burglary at his house in Salome, AZ sometime shortly after 1970. I will recognize it if I ever see it. Milton was living in Tacoma, and he decided to move back to Arizona. He wanted to write a book on the Lost Adams, and he also was working with a friend on some other treasures. Rose carefully described the document to me and told me to keep an eye out for it.

As far as treasure is concerned, the fierce tribes of the Southwest tried to eliminate the European intruders that were stealing their lands. Most of the mines that operated would stockpile the gold and silver because of the constant attacks from these natives. Sometimes all the miners were killed, and the cache of high grade ore or dore bars was not found. Many of the Spanish mines were reopened during the 1800s and the remains of miners were found inside along with sacks of ore.

 

[lgadbois]

Gollum, I did not state that the Camp Loco mine produced gold and silver, but it could have.

What you are suggesting is that the excavation was done for reasons other than the recovery of precious metals. The assumption must be that the huge pile of tailing was the result of a massive effort to dig a hole. Why was the hole (which I call a mine) created? We have very few reasons that would explain this project:

1. The location may have been a silver mine. There is a large silver belt that runs over 26 miles from the north of the Tumacacori Mountains to the Planchas de Plata location in Mexico. The igneous formation surfaces on the cliff where the mine is located, and the site could have been rich in silver at one time.

2. This site could have been developed as a storage location for valuables and supplies. Because of the cross, the shrine, and the face on the cliff, the site must have been used by the Church. An interesting side note to the Jesuit map of 1757: Only the missions of San Diego del Pitiquito and Guevavi are shown with an unexplained symbol. The symbol is a circle within a fluted seven sided circle that looks like a flower. Could it be that the Camp Loco site was selected as a supply center for the northern missions? If someone has a better explanation of that symbol, I would like to hear it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"There was actually a Mission built at Tumacacori."

Do you know when it was built and by whom? Are you talking in Kino's time?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

igadbois,

"But Joe, you are not very careful when discussing subjects in the context which they are presented by other posters. And sometimes your answers get sarcastic and personally offensive. I guess it is easier for some people to speak their mind and apologize after the fact."

Can't say your wrong. It's been my problem for many years. Believe it or not, I often delete the more offensive parts. I guess it comes from being overly opinionated. Most of the time, I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

I do apologize, and mean it. Some people just don't bother.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Sorry Roy,

No personal attack on you was intended.

"If you look at the very map you just posted here, you will see that the original mission WAS up in the hills, not down on the river flats."

You have changed the wording a bit here:

"After obtaining the necessary information the Jesuit priest gathered together a party of trusted men and followed the trail to the Tumacacori mission, situated well up in the mountains."

It may be that you are looking at the treasure chest I placed on the west side of the river. That is the location that T.S. posted coordinates for. There is little doubt that the old mission was on the east side of the river.

Hope all is well for you and Beth.

Take care,

Joe

Hola amigos,
Joe, I used YOUR map as you posted to make a point; newspaper reports are often dismissed by historians, due to their inaccuracies and errors, which ignores the fact that in most cases they have at least the basic points correct. I know of a case in recent history, in which a car plunged over a 30 ft embankment into a river; the car came to a rest (carried by the waters) 1000 ft downstream of a bridge which was just S of where the car entered the river. The newspaper accounts had it that the car plunged over a 1000 ft cliff into the river, and BTW this is the exact same way it was reported by several television stations. The car did end up in the river and some ways from where it entered, but if you followed the way it was reported you would be looking for a non-existant 1000 ft cliff.

It is funny to me how you will 'laser-focus' on a flaw in any thing that supports Jesuit treasures and/or mines Joe, yet just seem to forget that even a Jesuit historian <one you hold in high regard> openly published that two Jesuits were caught being involved in mining, and this was a historian whom was only covering a relatively small area of the world, for the Jesuits operated world-wide and still do. I have to suspect that if you were to turn the same level of suspicion onto the Jesuits as you do onto all evidence showing their involvement in mining, treasures etc your view may well change.

One more thing Joe, I did not take it as a personal attack so no apologies were necessary, sorry for making you think that was the case. Branding and shearing are now done, and we are both in pain but glad those two chores are over for another year. I hope all is well with you, and that you are having a very pleasant evening.
your friend(s) in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy *& Beth*

PS It is just my opinion, but I think that locating two of the mines on the map should allow you to locate all of them without any further clues whatsoever. I would also point out that Spanish pronunciation may be causing treasure hunters a major problem in identifying a particular landmark; the pass of "Janos". "J" in Latin <recalling that many Catholic priests use Latin> is a 'Y' sound, so it would sound like 'Yanos'; likewise a pair of 'LL's has a similar pronunciation in Spanish, so the name could be spelled in Spanish as LLanos, which word we should note has a very different meaning from Janos too. Of course in Spanish the J is an H sound, so it sounds like 'Hanos' . I don't think it actually refers to the tribe Janos, this appears to be a possible error in transcription/translation along the way with three languages as <possible> factors (Spanish, Latin, Anglo).

PPS Now I will have to use a tactic I don't like, to say that I know for an absolute fact that one quite valuable mine was found by the use of the Molina document, this mine is documented and was a good producer in the "frontier" days. Probably some of you know exactly what I am talking about; but do not ask me the name or location of this particular mine; if you are curious you can find out rather easily. Now if I knew the exact location of one other mine, I would be asking my boss for some time off.....