Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"It is funny to me how you will 'laser-focus' on a flaw in any thing that supports Jesuit treasures and/or mines Joe, yet just seem to forget that even a Jesuit historian <one you hold in high regard> openly published that two Jesuits were caught being involved in mining, and this was a historian whom was only covering a relatively small area of the world, for the Jesuits operated world-wide and still do. I have to suspect that if you were to turn the same level of suspicion onto the Jesuits as you do onto all evidence showing their involvement in mining, treasures etc your view may well change."

To be fair, I focus in on available evidence. It's always possible, these days, that I have forgotten some details of my self education on Jesuit history but in this case, that's not the case. I have mentioned before that there is no doubt in my mind that some Jesuits crossed the line into limited mining.

At the time of their expulsion, I believe, there was one Jesuit priest who actually owned a mine. It was left to him by a wealthy patroness on her death. While he kept the mine, bad move, he did not work it. I have spoken (actually email) with Professor Deeds about that mine, and she has the same facts.

Keep in mind that I was as firm a believer in Jesuit mining and treasure as anyone here. It was only after decades of research that I became convinced otherwise. I know the arguments for the other side, and possibly a few more. IMHO, to say there is a paucity of evidence is being generous.

In almost every case, the evidence is "historical documentation" against, with legend and folkfore for. All physical evidence is non-existant, not available or questionable. In the last case, there are differing explanations other than Jesuit mining.

In every instance, a definitive case can't be made for Jesuit involvement.

Those are my personal opinions after considerable research, and my own time in the field. I can easily see how others could come to different conclusions.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning My friends: I have a slightly different view Jesuits & mining, obviously--

A) I have read that the Jesuits taught mining in some of their colleges.

B) I have read that many of the larger mines around Mexico City were run by Jesuit Engr's, but not in typical clothing.

C) I have read the the Council of the Indies for Northern Mexico did allow for Jesuit ownership of mines ad did not require registration of any mines that they might have, but did discourage it ?

D) I believe that most assume those that were involved in mining wore the typical clothing of the Order, thus if someone wore ordinary clothing it was not a Jesuit operation ? Hmm

E) In Europe, they freely mined as many records show.

F) I have encountered and posted of two occasions where Jesuits admitted to me of their interest in missing / lost mines that the Order had worked in the past.

G) I have mentioned the resident Jesuit In Yecora becoming agitated and asking me to stop off at his residence for an all night session on Tayopa. Plenty of coffee

H) One of the hills at Tayopa which houses one of the main deposits is called El Cerro del Cura" The hill of the priest. He was reported as spending a bit of time there when there was only an Indian family or two there. He was constantly searching for something they said. One day while climbing around this particular hill he slipped and fell to his death, hence the name. This would be in the late 1800's.

I) One days mule run to the East from Tayopa is a capilla and a buried deposit, also operated by priests in black robes in which they stored a large amount of bars and records plus they gave specific instructions to guard the deposit until they returned. I have posted how and why I was given this information.

J) There was a small capilla over looking the Tayopa mine itself which was destroyed and the base stones thrown over the cliff so that only the basic foundation is presently visible. .
This is also known as the "Cerro del Templo".

I could go for quite a bit, including the plot in conjunction with the Dutch, to take North America away from Spain, this naturally would take many king's fortunes to finance, so how did they intend to finance this and why would they even consider this in the first place??

Last, but not the least, why are these plots and reports of being involved in mining almost strictly referring to the Jesuits?

A puzzled Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I could question all of your statements, but will limit it to one.

[There was a small capilla over looking the Tayopa mine itself which was destroyed and the base stones thrown over the cliff so that only the basic foundation is presently visible. This is also known as the "Cerro del Templo".]

Strange that it is not known as Cerro de la Templo.

You have called it a "capilla". Other than local folklore or possible fact, it sounds like there is nothing to confirm that it was a small church. Is there?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose el gringo de la Mancha wrote

Last, but not the least, why are these plots and reports of being involved in mining almost strictly referring to the Jesuits?

A puzzled Don Jose de La Mancha

The plotting against governments was apparently very much a Jesuit pastime almost everywhere they went. Look at their history in Japan; they were found to be plotting to overthrow the Emperor, besides taking over the mines of the country and were expelled. A large percentage secretly remained behind and were caught and likewise shipped out, but quite a few slipped back into the country and returned to their work. I am using it as an example of their machinations, for they were not solely concerned with the saving souls and converting the heathens. This is the key 'cassus belli' that drew the ire of the European (and several Asian) monarchies, not their mining which was viewed as a very much lessor offense.

We probably should not examine this factor in detail for it would be offensive to some. The evidence which our amigo Joe <Cactusjumper> tosses off so lightly is too much to explain away as anti-Catholicism, anti-Jesuitism etc for they claim the Order never had any such mines or treasures. When we can find that they do admit to some mining activity, and that some "Church" treasures in the form of ornaments etc may still be un-recovered, and look at undisputed facts in many Latin American churches (as in treasure vaults, or even masses of treasure obtained by pirates from these pious agents of Rome) we ought to view all denials as questionable at least. The Society is never going to openly admit to their activities OR what they accumulated, for they still plan to return and retrieve it as happened in the instance just discussed and as happened in several instances in S. America. To continue to hold them so innocent is, in my opinion, cupidity or wearing blinders.

Suppose the original document, from which the Sister Molina copy was made, were to turn up? It could still be dismissed as fiction by the apologists, or a forgery, fraud choose your descriptive term. As the Molina document has proven to be useful in locating lost mines and treasures, should we care if the naysayers want to dismiss it all? It doesn't bother me, heh heh!

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening Joe: I am surprised that you didn't acknowledge that the Jesuits were legally mining in Europe? If they could mine there, why so horrified that they would also mine in the new world? It certainly would not be against their vows since they 'were' allowed to mine by the order over there.

Also, for some reason you chose to take issue with "Cerro del Templo"? You posted 'cerro de la Templo'. Templo is masculine, hence 'de el' is combined into 'del' so 'Cero del Templo' is correct.

Capilla, Templo, Iglesia are all indicative of small churches. Since Tayopa probably never had a population of more than a few hundred, there was no need for a Cathedral, just a Capilla which is capable of seating up to a hundred.
_________________________________________________________________________________

You posted --> there is nothing to confirm that it was a small church
***************
May I ask what else could it possibly be? The maps of Tayopa also show it to be a small church.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Bob,

Very interesting information. Do you know who's work it is? There were a number of archaeologist's who thought they had located the original site of Tumacacori. Di Peso was probably the most widely accepted, for awhile. I believe that was around 1956. There was a pretty good list of "finders", all in different locations.

Do you know what period they dated the site to? Is it your opinion that the drawings of the buildings, without the cross could not be a, pretty standard, O'odham village? Snaketown comes to mind.

Thanks in advance,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning BOB: A ***** post. If I may make a suggestion, resize your pictures to 750 pix / 5"inches, width for max inclusion on the window frame. As it is, I can only see about 1/2 of each.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Sorry about the size!
Ill cut them down a little more next time.

As far as who, what, when, where, I only know they talk about the City or Mission on the east side of the river Santa Cruz if you look at the one page I posted but it may have said before that page it was always a misconception or an early mapping mistake.

This site is the original site of the "Vista of Tumacacori" (All early Jesuit Missions were considered Vista's) at the base of Peck Canyon in Calabasass on the west side below a large Indian Village that once was there. I believe it was attacked by Apaches and destroyed. This is where they got the Indian Labor and converts. It's also a typical Jesuit construction of the early Mission style.

Not very sophisticated!

You should see the Cemetery for the original San Cayentano Del Vista Tumacacori!

Very old and overgrown but still there. Some of the early burials were right in the Vista compound but later they were at a very old and hard to find cemetery not far from the Vista compound with many early Vatican Jesuit Priests buried there.
I'll dig I may have some photo's of the Tombstones.

It was not in Loco Canyon.

That place was for Loco's. Loco canyon is no longer accessable from peck canyon.
That whole area has been taken over by Mexican Drug Lords from what I've been told.

Interesting stuff though.

Bob,

Can you provide sources for the information you have posted? Can you name a single priest, of the "many" that were buried at the original site of Tumacacori?

Thank you in advance,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Bob,

I can see why you would want to keep your sources for that information a secret. None of what you wrote is supported by any historical documentation, so your sources and you, have inside, inside information. You wouldn't want those folks being hounded by thousands of treasure hunters.
If none of you can find that treasure.......

I have had the information you posted for a few years now.

Sorry I bothered you.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

General, Kino is buried in Magdalena, Sonora. Actually he isn't buried, his bones are exposed to show his club foot for proof. but he is in an air conditiond huge room. It is an interesting exhibit.

If you pass through this town, take the time to go see him.
Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Come on Bob,

With as much back and forth (putting it nicely) as we had on the subject, you should be well aware that Gary Oliver is not a Doctor of anything and never claimed to be.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Bob,

While Charles Di Peso's work is highly respected, and his research into the original location of San Cayetano del Tumacacori was unmatched......at the time, his conclusions have been overturned by the later work of Deni J. Seymour.

Having read the work and conclusions of both, my own conclusion is that Seymour was correct. Her syndetic approach seemed to touch all the bases in detecting the original location of Tumacacori.

I could list all the reasons that I agree with Josephine Canyon as the correct area for Kino's Sobaipuri-O'odham village (Tumacacori), but doubt it would change your opinion. I would only suggest that you read both works and come to your own conclusions.

I have assumed that the location you have posted is Di Peso's, so I could be wrong. If it's Paloparado, it's located on the west side of the Santa Cruz River. That takes it out of the running, for me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

It seems that one of the problems with Tumacacori treasure stories, is that people tend to blend the different locations and era's together. They look at the the restored mission there now, and equate it to Jesuit wealth. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What you see now had nothing to do with the Jesuits.

The Jesuit Tumacacori was always of minor importance and almost destitute. The native population always, from the start, had to beg for a priest and went close to thirty years, at one point, without one.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
This is a very long reply, so I beg your indulgence; thank you in advance.

Bob Collins wrote

Cactus, If you had those pages from the same book all along why haven't you posted them yourself?

Bob - he didn't mention it because it is part of the quiz.

Bob Collins also wrote

Anyway, the second doc and I'll bow out of here, Chow

Well I hate to see you go Bob, and thank you for posting the interesting info you have shared. I hope you will change your mind.

Cactusjumper wrote

It seems that one of the problems with Tumacacori treasure stories, is that people tend to blend the different locations and era's together. They look at the the restored mission there now, and equate it to Jesuit wealth. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What you see now had nothing to do with the Jesuits.

The Jesuit Tumacacori was always of minor importance and almost destitute. The native population always, from the start, had to beg for a priest and went close to thirty years, at one point, without one.

This problem of "mixing" of various stories helps to keep lost mines and treasures lost; however in the case of Tumacacori there is at least some justification, for the Franciscans who replaced the Jesuits were able to re-discover and work at least a few of the mines of the area. The Franciscans were not as successful in prospecting in AZ, as they were in NM. As for how "destitute" the visita of Tumacacori was, this is a matter of debate. Nentvig's description of the ornamentation of those "destitute" mud-hut mssions and visitas is enlightening;

Because the churches are constructed of adobe, except the one at Batuc, they are in need of repair continually, and only those who build in Sonora know how costly it is. A certain missionary in need of fifty pine rafters offered to pay 2,500 pesos in silver for them but found no sellers. Since there are stone quarries everywhere, if there were stone masons available to construct arches and vaults, the larger investment would mean a saving in the long run.

All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears.
<Rudo Ensayo, A DESCRIPTION OF SONORA AND ARIZONA IN 1764 by Father Juan Nentig, SJ>

Tumacacori was considered a dependent mission of Guevavi in 1764. As has been posted before in other threads, some of these missions were adorned with impressive amounts of silver, which was not to be seen when the Franciscans arrived. What happened to these ornaments? Nentvig also mentioned that there were some silver and one gold mine in the vicinity of Guevavi, which were not being worked at the moment.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Roy,

"All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears."

I don't believe the original Tumacacori ever had a "church". There was a time in Phoenix where the Catholic's did not have a church. They held their services in a private home. Tumacacori's original place for services was a brush shelter (arbor) built for that purpose. Eventually the natives built an adobe house with an earthen roof........"for the time when they should be given a padre, who would minister to them." This was around 1701.

Just my personal opinion from what I have read.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Buenas tardes Jose de la Cholla: Cactus Joe: I am curious, what constitutes a Church in your belief?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

The pictures that "Bob" posted were from Charles Di Peso's book, "The Upper Pima Of San Cayetano Del Tumacacori". No doubt the museum had something better than a leather-bound first edition, which is what I have to work with, but my copy ain't bad. They may have had the original notes and manuscript.

What Di Peso concluded was a "church", was most likely a native "ceremonial house" as opposed to a Jesuit Church. The reason I say that, is because Di Peso was mistaken about Paloparado Ruins being the original site of San Cayetano Del Tumacacori. That is, pretty well, accepted by most scholars today, as far as I know.

In our conversations, I don't believe we were talking about the spiritual connotation of a "church", but the more commonly accepted "definition" of a church. My own feelings are much like those of the Apache, in that anywhere people might gather to worship a god, would be considered a church. That would include the meanest shack and the most sacred mountaintop.

What we are trying to get to here, as far as I know, is the truthfulness of a newspaper article that includes the finding of a small church and it having a huge slab of stone for a floor. That does not match up with what the native population would build, or were documented to have built, for the Jesuit's at San Cayetano.
That location does not match some important, contemporaneous, descriptions of the original site, as well.

That was a bit more than you asked for, but I believe placing a cross on that drawing was not an exact science, if you know what I mean. On the other hand, it may have been what could be considered a "church", but it's unlikely it was for a Jesuit priest.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Joe, since you are watching i know that you will answer this quickly. I completely agree, any place that you bow down, show allegiance, or worship, can qualify as a church, including inside of your own heart.

During the period in the 20 - 30's here in Mexico when they were hunting the priests down and killing them, they would hold a clandestine mass anywhere that they could assemble a crowd of the faithful, despite extreme danger.. They would bury the Cross and chalice until the next mass.

I have an interesting story of my involvement on one these hidden Church artifacts.

In this concept, a Capilla, templo, visite etc., as mentioned in Tayopa, are Churches in all aspects.

I have posted pictures of the Capilla here in Alamos, which is of the typical approved construction used by the Jesuits for the smaller churches. They normally seat 50 , but can seat 100, which was adequate for most settlements. This was the approved model of the capilla / templo for Tayopa, and is shown on the map of Tayopa..

For some reason most think of a 'cathedral' such as at Tubac as a typical church.

Incidentally, are / were there any missions or churches that were never listed, such as the one at Tayopa, or the new one that I found being constructed between Tubares and Guaspares while I was searching for La Gloria Pan

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Roy,

"All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears."

I don't believe the original Tumacacori ever had a "church". There was a time in Phoenix where the Catholic's did not have a church. They held their services in a private home. Tumacacori's original place for services was a brush shelter (arbor) built for that purpose. Eventually the natives built an adobe house with an earthen roof........"for the time when they should be given a padre, who would minister to them." This was around 1701.

Just my personal opinion from what I have read.

Take care,

Joe

Then allow me to highlight a portion of Nentvig's description again -
"...and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well."

Tumacacori was a dependent CHURCH ("visita") of Guevavi at this time. Dependent churches did not always have a resident father assigned to them as you know. However there are suggestions that every visita was cared for and maintained by a neophyte, whom would be somewhat educated in the ecclesiatical duties, and would almost certainly lead the congregation in prayer on worship days when the father responsible for the visita was absent. I am not saying anything you don't already know, which seems as if you are conveniently taking the position that Tumacacori was not a "church" based on the fact that it didn't always have a resident father. Visitas were built where they could serve the people working the padres' ranches, mines, etc not the reverse. So if Tumacacori was not a Visita church, which is what you seem to be saying, why does Nentvig include this part of his description, quote

From Tucson we must trek thirty leagues south to reach the royal presidio of Tubac where we can rest and then proceed to Tumacacori, one league south, and then to Calabazas;40 both are dependent missions of Guebavi,41 the main mission located at 32 degrees, 28 minutes latitude by 263 degrees, 12 minutes longitude. It is administered by Father Custodio Jimeno who is also in charge of the dependent missions.

So I must respectfully disagree, Tumacacori certainly had a church, being a dependent mission of Guevavi. By Nentvig's description of the beautiful equipment and adornments to be found not only in the main missions but at the dependent ones as well, is it logical to conclude that Tumacacori must have been the exception to the description? If it were, what ever prevented Father Nentvig from mentioning this fact? He was not too shy, certainly.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"Incidentally, are / were there any missions or churches that were never listed, such as the one at Tayopa, or the new one that I found being constructed between Tubares and Guaspares while I was searching for La Gloria Pan"

Anything is possible. I can see where that might have happened in rare cases, possibly even not so rare. The Jesuit were prolific historians, and detailed almost everything in their writings. It may be that they all lied in their diaries and personal letters, but I have a hard time swallowing that theory.

Take care,

Joe