Two peaks

[Interested Party in UK]

Towards the end of his time, when he was getting more and more desperate and could not get anyone to fund his searches, he would sometimes spend time alone or with one or two associates and look specifically for the alleged pot of gold.

Check out the references when he would base himself on the Arizona side of the state lines between that state and New Mexico. It is not said explicitly but look at what Purcell said and the various pamphlets.

IPUK

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[UncleMatt]

I have all the pamphlets, courtesy of Purcell and Old Bookaroo. Can you give me the pages and passages you are referring to exactly please?

I posted last year about the fact that one story has Adams becoming very ill in LA, and losing his memory. The only things he had to go on after he recovered were what his wife and kids could tell him they had heard from him before he got ill. This makes sense to me, as it seemed he was wondering around hoping something would spur his memory and remind him of where he needed to go next. But that never happened.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

I have all the pamphlets, courtesy of Purcell and Old Bookaroo. Can you give me the pages and passages you are referring to exactly please?

I posted last year about the fact that one story has Adams becoming very ill in LA, and losing his memory. The only things he had to go on after he recovered were what his wife and kids could tell him they had heard from him before he got ill. This makes sense to me, as it seemed he was wondering around hoping something would spur his memory and remind him of where he needed to go next. But that never happened.

I will dig-out my old notes for you.

Bear in mind that the story about Adams losing his memory is just that - a story. The same story that detailed his 'illness' probably was the same one that said he got married after the LAD incident. Could his children really have been in a position to have detailed what he had recounted about his ramblings?

If the story about the LAD is to be believed, did Brewer not find the pot/container of gold some years after?
After all, he did not lose his memory or had a terrible sense of direction as did, allegedly, Adams. What about the 'German'?
He was supposed to be a mining man he knew the Southwest and got out alive. Why oh why would he never go back to such a sight even years after the event if the LAD was truly so rich?

I am not denigrating anyone's efforts, simply trying to get answers to gaps in the whole saga.


IPUK

 

[UncleMatt]

You and me both! But it appears no such answers will be forthcoming barring the discovery of any new documents. We have what we have on this, as confusing and contradictory as it all is.

 

[Springfield]

... What about the 'German'? He was supposed to be a mining man he knew the Southwest and got out alive. Why oh why would he never go back to such a sight even years after the event if the LAD was truly so rich? ...

A lot of folks think the Dutchman - or the German - was Jacob Snively, definitely an accomplished mining man back in the day. If we accept all the LAD lore, we might speculate that Snively was waiting for Apache hostilities to cool off before he would go back to the site. Things were pretty volatile in the years following the alleged Adams Incident, 1864, and time may have simply run out for Snively - he was killed in 1871 by Apaches.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

A lot of folks think the Dutchman - or the German - was Jacob Snively, definitely an accomplished mining man back in the day. If we accept all the LAD lore, we might speculate that Snively was waiting for Apache hostilities to cool off before he would go back to the site. Things were pretty volatile in the years following the alleged Adams Incident, 1864, and time may have simply run out for Snively - he was killed in 1871 by Apaches.

Thing is, Snively made several trips to Texas (and maybe Arizona) during the late 1860s with groups prospecting for gold. Those areas were just as much - if not more - dangerous than New Mexico at the time. If you have been to and retrieved such a fabulous amount (as he may have done at the LAD) and have the necessary clout and resources to mount an expedition, why would you not go back?

If what some suggest that instead the Adams group had waylaid a party returning from the Californian goldfields, then some elements (not all) start coming together.

But then you have the problem of the various accounts of Adams himself, Brewer and indeed Snively.

Also, I cannot accept that the location was as magnificent as sometimes suggested and if the story is to be believed, there was another, even greater, location nearby (the one near the conical peaks where the guide originally wished the party to go) where the group did not go to.


IPUK

 

[Springfield]

Thing is, Snively made several trips to Texas (and maybe Arizona) during the late 1860s with groups prospecting for gold. Those areas were just as much - if not more - dangerous than New Mexico at the time. If you have been to and retrieved such a fabulous amount (as he may have done at the LAD) and have the necessary clout and resources to mount an expedition, why would you not go back?

If what some suggest that instead the Adams group had waylaid a party returning from the Californian goldfields, then some elements (not all) start coming together.

But then you have the problem of the various accounts of Adams himself, Brewer and indeed Snively.

Also, I cannot accept that the location was as magnificent as sometimes suggested and if the story is to be believed, there was another, even greater, location nearby (the one near the conical peaks where the guide originally wished the party to go) where the group did not go to. IPUK

We always end up in the same place, eh? A lot of threads to pick at, but no unravelling sweater where they all come together.

Of course, my working model is always subject to change, but for several years my explanation of the LAD is that the legend is a coded message describing a significant gold-related event. I believe a number of the landmarks are valid, some probably well known, but misinterpretted when compared to the popular story. The actors? I'm not certain 'Adams' existed, but the name is important. I think Snively was involved somehow. Brewer, Davidson, Gotchear? Who knows?

I suspect the legend was created to draw attention to a very specific location in New Mexico, but with so many variations of the LAD that surfaced from searchers, the story got so convoluted and confused that people now place the event in an area straddling NM/AZ covering 20,000 square miles.

 

[lastleg]

Recently I dug out some old mags and found one with a story by "Johnny Spanish" titled "The Golden
Canyon of Sno-Ta-Hay" in which he said after leaving the Pima camp the Mexican raised by Apaches led
the party passed a large mountain (Mt Ord?) 75 miles away, then took Adams to the peak of a tall
cerro (hill) and pointed to two tall pointed black peaks saying "Your gold sits four, maybe five days
ride from the black hats.
Then: Adams and John Brewer agreed later they crossed two rivers. The guide advised them to stop
at Ft Wingate for food and prospecting tools (Spanish did not say whether they did this after coming
across wagon tracks leading to the fort.) Two weeks from Pima camp they came to a sheer rock cliff.
The Mexican rode up to a large boulder, turned around it and vanished. It was a narrow pathway so
thin a rider could touch the opposite walls and formed a "Z" shape. Adams named it ZigZag trail.
At the mouth of this trail they found a long narrow canyon with a waterfall at the head of canyon.
The stream watered a portion of the lush canyon before 'vanishing.' In the stream they found gold
some like pebbles a few quarter sized and a single nugget the size of a chicken egg.

This yarn differs in the two (pillow shaped) peaks described as sharp peaks. I don't know if you
can find a copy but it was the fall 1976 issue of "True Frontier". What is remarkable is there is
also an article about Jacob Snively written by a more recognizable author, Steve Wilson.
This is the tale of "Colonel Snively's Lost Ledge of Gold". I don't know if this piece is available
in book form. Maybe Old Buckaroo can advise us on that.

 

[Springfield]

The 'Johnny Spanish' story sounds like yet another yada yada rehash, of which there are dozens, but the Snively story would be worth a peek. He's the joker in the LAD deck, IMO.

 

[UncleMatt]

Has anyone seen or heard from Old Bookaroo lately? I tried contacting him weeks ago after a member PM'ed me with concern about him, but got no response. I'm worried.

 

[G.A.P.metal]

I haven`t herd from OldBook in a while ether and hope he is well.
Gary

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Old Bookaroo was kind enough to recommend me some books and responded to my messages some two months back. But nothing since. Hope he is well.

That old "Johnny Spanish" yarn is, as Springfield suggested, a rehashed version and doesn't really bring anything new to the table. I really do not believe that there is any fabled secret canyon left to discover that can be linked to the LAD anywhere in the Southwest. Approaching from Brewer's or Snively's (provided they really were party of the original party) experiences is probably the best way to now try and get somewhere with this legend. Snively was a lot more documented and evidenced than Adams and had considerable interests and a more prevalent background. Brewer lived well into the last century and had unexplained wealth. His family history and landholdings across the border in Mexico, were uncovered by Purcell.

If I were to hazard a guess then it would be this:

A group set out from Arizona (most likely in the 1860s) with a guide and ended up in either New Mexico or very close to the state border. After an indeterminate period of time some members left - don't know if they took some gold with them or not - either of their own accord or through circumstances. There was a unspecified amount of gold left in that lonely spot wherever it was/is. Many attempts were made to relocate it years after the event. Only Brewer got 'lucky' and surreptitiously left with whatever was cached/hidden there. Now there is no "lost" canyon or mine to uncover. I appreciate that the sheer size and scale of that amazing place in the States is not inconsiderable. But. If any such enormously wealthy place really existed, it would have been uncovered by the large amounts of people who traipsed around those areas pre and post World War 2 and the ranchers etc., who knew/know of the existing watering holes. It is sometimes suggested that the venerable chief of the Chihenne Apache - Mangas Coloradas - had a Rancheria near there, the so-called pumpkin patch. That spot was well-known to the US Army and they actually visited him there many times. I actually gave the details in one of the threads here on Treasurenet from an old report that I had access to detailing US government relations with the Apaches at the time. It was also the case that old Nana did not actually become a chief until the late 1870s or early 1880s after the death of the great Victorio and did not have jurisdiction to order large bands of Apache warriors around. All that about Nana being identified at various agencies and being spoken to by Adams etc., pure fantasy in my opinion. That old warrior was very hostile up until the final surrender in the mid-1880s and simply did not conduct parleys of any sort as he was a subordinate of Victorio and then Loco. When Loco chose reservation life, Nana threw his lot in with Geronimo, Juh and Chihuahua. When Victorio was massacred along with a great many of his people at Tres Castillas, the survivors who were led by old Nana needed valuables to trade with 'friendly' Mexican ranchers for ammunition. They secured this from sites in old Mexico rather than any spot in New Mexico, even though he led a legendary raid covering Arizona, New Mexico and parts of Texas. Nana was not involved with the LAD story I would say. Many scouts who hated the renegade Chiricahua and were actually part of the same tribe, knew of exactly the same special, venerated, secret spots as their foes. They would have given-up any such location as the LAD, had it existed. That is why whenever there was a breakout from the San Carlos reservation, they always headed towards old Mexico. Of course, there was places of such significance that only a few high-ranking and trusted people of any tribe knew about. What would have happened in those instances is, they would not have chosen to plant crops near there, use it as a Rancheria, let Americans dig for gold "as long as they did not approach the higher placed ledge" or take captives to see it as Gotchear claimed. Never mind American contact with the Apache, they had over three centuries of contact with the Spanish/Mexicans and knew what gold was about.

Brewer waited until the Apache Wars were over. He bided his time in Colorado if his version is to believed. He managed to head towards the Rio Grande after the LAD incident. When he returned, he did not hang around for long nor get large groups together to try and relocate that particular spot. He then moved away and enjoyed wealth, power and authority. This in itself is a pointer to what may have happened.


IPUK

 

[markmar]

IPUK

IMO , in the LAD story , Nana was the leader of an Indian patrol group . The Chiefs were not involved to lead a patrol fight . Nana and his group , simply had executed their duties .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

He he, so we are bk to ole Mexico, and by coincidence, the entry to the Tayopa canyon complex which has the same reported configuration as that commonly described for the LAD. including the falls.

The falls are from the exiting of the Arroyo Caudaloso to the right upon entering, which traverses the Placers of Paramo, a very rich Gold placer. Coincidence??

The Az/NM area has been combed by air, Satt., and on foot with no results, and aerial photos are freely available which are able to id a Jack Rabbit along with pro satt service caable of even finer defination., yet ? soooooo??

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. The Apache had/have a cave in the Canyon, which until the 1900's, held food, weapons. It was easily identified early in the morning by the oblique sun's rays illuminating it showing a human skull by the shadows forming a Bais relief. Side thingie, the people up there don't know of this cave.

 

[UncleMatt]

The Az/NM area has been combed by air, Satt., and on foot with no results, and aerial photos are freely available which are able to id a Jack Rabbit along with pro satt service caable of even finer defination., yet ?

Please point me to the free aerial photos or satellite images of NM where you can ID a jack rabbit in the images.

 

[lastleg]

The arrival of small dronettes buzzing around the desolates could signal the end of fortune hunting,
as we know it. Imagine the chagrin of Argonauts discovering a long lost mine only to find it occupied
by an electronic roadrunner.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning Matt, who said anything abut free? The major mining co's use them so do other agencies. Google is effectively worthless for this, but it is useful for other things.
go for aerial photographs, and in many cases one can use the stereographic factor for elevations. --canyons.

Jose

 

[UncleMatt]

Sorry, I mis-read "freely available. But I am still curious what your source would be commercially for such high resolution aerial photographs.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Matt, coffee For starters try -->

fountainware.com/Products/TopoGrabber/index.htm

TerraServer - Aerial Photos & Satellite Images - The Leader In Online Imagery

High Resolution - Mammography Center Albuquerque, New Mexico (NM)

High Resolution Satellite and Aerial Images & Photos | DigitalGlobe

google-latlong.blogspot.com/2012/09/imagery-update-explore-more-of-world-in.html



there are some thousands of site.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Interested Party in UK]

UM

Both Purcell and French mention Adams was trying to entice funders and explorers to search for the gold allegedly buried under the hearth rather than the site in later years. Sorry, I did not note the pages etc., as I did not believe that I'd ever search for the treasure myself. Also made a note of a couple websites that said he'd done the same.



Don Tayopa

Sorry, but this LAD is nowhere near old Mexico. There is a thousand places the LAD story's description would cover in the Southwest and old Mexico, but if the legend has any veracity, all the players - Adams, Brewer and Snively and not to mention those that came after - did not confuse a whole country and always kept the search area between the middle and upper reaches close to the Arizona and New Mexico state line. By the way, the Apaches had many cache sites and the ones in old Mexico were mostly from the Chiricahua (their southern branch who were from the Sierra Madres) and they knew of every location, watering hole and abandoned site - they needed to in order to survive in their precarious way of life. They continued to live "free" until the 1930s or possibly 1940s but were greatly reduced at that stage, that the females had to do the fighting as all the male warriors had been killed. A remarkable people who left an indelible mark in that region and will always be associated with a glorious, if futile attempt to cling to their traditional way of life.


Markmar

Nana was not in the LAD story. You say he might have been in a patrol. What and where and why?






IPUK