Understanding DEEP Copper

[Michigan Badger]

There is this belief that long time buried copper coins give a stronger signal than fresh buried copper coins.

This is true but some people don't understand what we mean by stronger signal.

I have a friend who has been using the DFX for years and still has not found a single Indian Cent. His problem is he doesn't understand that long time buried copper coins don't sound like fresh buried copper coins.

Copper corrupts after having been buried for 50+ years. The more it corrodes the more it MAY sound like iron to the metal detector and for some reason iron detects a lot deeper than nonferrous metal. Some say the corrosion makes the coin appear larger to the detector but personally I don't buy that theory. Anyway, as ground minerals pack around the coin, this mineral masking affect may cause the coin's signal to increase in volume and it may cause it to sound/read more like an iron washer than a coin.

Many people seeking deep old copper make the mistake of setting their discriminations too high. They set their machines to just accept copper coins fresh buried and all corrupted signals are then ignored. But it may well be the corrupted signals (broken signals) are the old copper coins.

The problem with tone machines is about the time the signal gets down to where the old copper coins are the tone is corrupted due to the signal becoming more iron-like (ferrous). Many make the mistake of listening only for clear high tone coin signals. The deep old smaller copper coins may read/sound more ferrous than nonferrous. As you dig down you will notice the signal greatly improves due to less mineral masking to the coin.

SUM: So the depth and length of time a copper coin has been buried can greatly affect the signal. Long time buried copper coins usually give a louder signal than fresh buried but that louder signal may be mostly an iron signal (mostly iron with a faint high tone mixed in).

Extra Note: Sometimes copper coins buried a long time in very dry climates may sound just like fresh buried copper coins of the same type. But these will usually not detect nearly as deeply as those in moister soils where the coins corrode more.

Hope this helps someone.

Badger

 

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[BuckleBoy]

Amen.


100% Right-On as always, Badger.



-Buckles

 

[Sandman]

Very well said Badger. Many don't understand how discrimination works and think everything it cut and dry, Good signal=good target/Bad signal=bad target stuff.

This is why I enjoy using the Sov GT so much with Iron Mask Off in some locations where old coins have a better chance of showing up. Many with the DFX's and such don't dig these lower VDI numbers so they don't learn that some of them are those older copper coins you are talking about.

This is were experience comes into play and you have the experience too.

 

[bazinga]

Shhhhh..... We don't need other learning the secrets. I enjoy finding old coins that others pass off as trashy signals!

 

[bakergeol]

Well Badger

I sort of agree with some of what you said but the answer really is a simple one

In my opinion it is not the coin or it's corrosion.
It is just the VLF machine.

The deeper you go with a VLF, the more ground mineralization it reads. All VLFs do this.
All good targets besides copper coins will read lower toward the iron end with depth. It is why your
Explorer will read deep coins ALL over your meter.

That is one reason a lot of people are waiting for a true discriminating PI which will not
be affected as much by ground mineralization. I can see this already in my GS5(PI) as one
can not confuse washers or bottle caps with coins. You are also not going to confuse deep
iron with coins with the proper settings with this PI.

For a glimpse of what the future holds here is a posting by a good friend Reg Sniff using the
Whites TDI PI(a newer White's version of the GS5). His objective for 45 minutes was just to dig
old coins- not new coins.

His quote "Anyway, the net result was I only dug 3 targets I was relatively sure were coins and they were a 1919 penny, a 1918 penny and a 1891 penny." Don't forget this was with a PI and not a VLF in a well hunted park.

By the way, Reg has taken a lot of old coins out of this park which were missed by hundreds of VLF users because the park is well mineralized and coins were beyond the depth of regular VLFs.

PI's will RULE THE FUTURE.

"Hi All,

Recently I posted how to minimize digging nails while coin hunting in a park with a TDI, and was questioned about just how I knew. So, today I decided to see just how accurate I could be. The park where I hunted is heavily mineralized and sits above the Arkansas River in Southern Colorado. It is about 100 years old, so there is always the potential for finding older coins.

Well, this park has been hunted to death and has been pretty stingy about giving up any older coins until I began using the GS 5 that I modified and added a unique feature which ultimately became known as the single tone mode. Having the very first PI with this ability was kind of neat, but I felt the need to share the technical aspects. I personally thought this feature was too big to not be installed on both the TDI and the GS 5. Ultimately, this new mode was added the both the the detectors.

So, how well does this mode really work when trying to find coins such as silver and copper coins? That is what I wanted to verify today using my latest techniques. I say techniques because now I hunt with a delay of 10 usec, the GB set at about 9 and the conductivity mode switch to high. With this setting, both high conductor coins and many nails will generate a nice distinct response. The trick is to know which are which if one wants to minimize digging nails.

Can that be done? Can one basically separate nails from coins? Yep. Now, this is not to say that I don't pass up a few coins that act strangely, because I am sure that happens, but today is quite typical of what I normally end up digging and my expectations.

Today's hunting time frame wasn't that long, maybe 45 minutes or so, but it was enough to prove a point. At the end of the 45 minutes, my success rate of actually guessing targets was 100%. I also dug a few suspected targets I knew were not coins but I thought were not nails either though they generated decent signals at the normal setting. They needed further investigation which requires a second test, and that test is to reduce the GB setting..

Also, I didn't bother with surface coins because that was not my objective. With a little experience a person will be able to easily separate the strong response from a surface coin from the mellow tone of the deeper ones. Anyway, the net result was I only dug 3 targets I was relatively sure were coins and they were a 1919 penny, a 1918 penny and a 1891 penny. Two targets I was not sure of but didn't think were coins or nails were what looks like a copper cufflink and a larger piece of lead. These two objects did pass both tests, but still didn't sound like nice smooth coin size signals.

Finally, I had 3 signals that sounded just like coins at the initial setting but clearly didn't pass the second GB setting test, where I reduced the GB to about 5 1/2 and listened to the signal again. Coins will still give that nice mellow response at the lower GB setting, but nails will really stutter or the signal will simply disappear. This last three nail type signals turned out to be just that, nails. I intentionally dug them only to verify my suspicions.

There were probably 6 or maybe 7 other targets that gave a nice signal at the original settings, but were too wide of a response, or clearly generated a double blip, more commonly associated with nail type objects. So, these were not dug and were not added to the result per se.

Anyway, the TDI was not designed to be a coin hunting detector, but I can say from experience it does very well in this field. The key is to simply learn the signals of a deep coin and be willing to adjust the GB control and check again. The technique isn't difficult but the success rate will increase with experience. The biggest mistake is to try to make a good signal out of a bad one.

There will always be a few false signals which are normally intermittent type signals that do not repeat with any consistency, if at all. So, the TDI is not the perfect coin hunting detector, but is a very deep seeking one, that with a little knowledge and experience is an exceptionally good one, especially in bad ground.

Anyways, this is my take on the issue."

Reg


George

 

[Michigan Badger]

Well Badger

I sort of agree with some of what you said but the answer really is a simple one

In my opinion it is not the coin or it's corrosion.
It is just the VLF machine.

The deeper you go with a VLF, the more ground mineralization it reads. All VLFs do this.
All good targets besides copper coins will read lower toward the iron end with depth. It is why your
Explorer will read coins ALL over your meter.

That is one reason a lot of people are waiting for a true discriminating PI which will not
be affected as much by ground mineralization. I can see this already in my GS5(PI) as one
can not confuse washers or bottle caps with coins. You are also not going to confuse deep
iron with coins with the proper settings with this PI.

For a glimpse of what the future holds here is a posting by a good friend Reg Sniff using the
Whites TDI PI(a newer White's version of the GS5). His objective for 45 minutes was just to dig
old coins- not new coins.

His quote "Anyway, the net result was I only dug 3 targets I was relatively sure were coins and they were a 1919 penny, a 1918 penny and a 1891 penny." Don't forget this was with a PI and not a VLF in a well hunted park.

By the way, Reg has taken a lot of old coins out of this park which were missed by hundreds of VLF users because the park is well mineralized and coins were beyond the depth of regular VLFs.

PI's will RULE THE FUTURE.

"Hi All,

Recently I posted how to minimize digging nails while coin hunting in a park with a TDI, and was questioned about just how I knew. So, today I decided to see just how accurate I could be. The park where I hunted is heavily mineralized and sits above the Arkansas River in Southern Colorado. It is about 100 years old, so there is always the potential for finding older coins.

Well, this park has been hunted to death and has been pretty stingy about giving up any older coins until I began using the GS 5 that I modified and added a unique feature which ultimately became known as the single tone mode. Having the very first PI with this ability was kind of neat, but I felt the need to share the technical aspects. I personally thought this feature was too big to not be installed on both the TDI and the GS 5. Ultimately, this new mode was added the both the the detectors.

So, how well does this mode really work when trying to find coins such as silver and copper coins? That is what I wanted to verify today using my latest techniques. I say techniques because now I hunt with a delay of 10 usec, the GB set at about 9 and the conductivity mode switch to high. With this setting, both high conductor coins and many nails will generate a nice distinct response. The trick is to know which are which if one wants to minimize digging nails.

Can that be done? Can one basically separate nails from coins? Yep. Now, this is not to say that I don't pass up a few coins that act strangely, because I am sure that happens, but today is quite typical of what I normally end up digging and my expectations.

Today's hunting time frame wasn't that long, maybe 45 minutes or so, but it was enough to prove a point. At the end of the 45 minutes, my success rate of actually guessing targets was 100%. I also dug a few suspected targets I knew were not coins but I thought were not nails either though they generated decent signals at the normal setting. They needed further investigation which requires a second test, and that test is to reduce the GB setting..

Also, I didn't bother with surface coins because that was not my objective. With a little experience a person will be able to easily separate the strong response from a surface coin from the mellow tone of the deeper ones. Anyway, the net result was I only dug 3 targets I was relatively sure were coins and they were a 1919 penny, a 1918 penny and a 1891 penny. Two targets I was not sure of but didn't think were coins or nails were what looks like a copper cufflink and a larger piece of lead. These two objects did pass both tests, but still didn't sound like nice smooth coin size signals.

Finally, I had 3 signals that sounded just like coins at the initial setting but clearly didn't pass the second GB setting test, where I reduced the GB to about 5 1/2 and listened to the signal again. Coins will still give that nice mellow response at the lower GB setting, but nails will really stutter or the signal will simply disappear. This last three nail type signals turned out to be just that, nails. I intentionally dug them only to verify my suspicions.

There were probably 6 or maybe 7 other targets that gave a nice signal at the original settings, but were too wide of a response, or clearly generated a double blip, more commonly associated with nail type objects. So, these were not dug and were not added to the result per se.

Anyway, the TDI was not designed to be a coin hunting detector, but I can say from experience it does very well in this field. The key is to simply learn the signals of a deep coin and be willing to adjust the GB control and check again. The technique isn't difficult but the success rate will increase with experience. The biggest mistake is to try to make a good signal out of a bad one.

There will always be a few false signals which are normally intermittent type signals that do not repeat with any consistency, if at all. So, the TDI is not the perfect coin hunting detector, but is a very deep seeking one, that with a little knowledge and experience is an exceptionally good one, especially in bad ground.

Anyways, this is my take on the issue."

Reg


George

Hey George, good to hear from you.

I sort of agree with you. I think it's ground mineralization plus the corrosion on the coin's surface plus the distance from the target.

The distance from the target affect is simple to prove. Simply move a coin back and forth by the coil moving out farther from the coil until the tone (tone machine) changes to ferrous. Just distance alone has a great affect on the readings and sounds.

More minerals in the soil means the distance factor has been shortened plus the minerals themselves tend to corrupt readings (also coin corrosion).

But you're correct about this being the nature of all VLF's.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Well said michigan badger! I remember when the earthquake of 1989 hit here in CA, SCORES of boarded up old turn-of-the-century homes sat vacated and boarded up. I went yard to yard thinking I could "cherry-pick" only older silver or copper coins (since time was short), by merely watching the TID screen and digging the "right" signals. Needless to say, I didn't score much from an afternoon of that! Of course it was because .... over time ..... signals that are deep and buried for a long time, don't read like air-tested coins.

bakergeol also has some good in-put. Thankyou!