UNESCO Treaty on Submerged Cultural Heritage -Who has signed it? Who has not?

[Boatlode]

Not one single coin or artifact from the Whydah has been sold

https://auction.sedwickcoins.com/Mexico-City-Mexico-cob-4-reales-Philip-V-assayer-not-visible-housed-in-custom-frame-with-origin_i29835717

 

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[Salvor6]

OOPS!

 

[Darren in NC]

Oh sure, that was bad practice. As was the ill famous use of propwash blowers over the La Belle.

Thanks for admitting there is bad archaeology.

But these are two different problems: treasure hunting AND bad archaeology.

Nope. There is good AND bad treasure hunting...and good AND bad archaeology.

Now, for something new: show me examples of proper, documented, archaeological work done by treasure hunters: site plans, conservation, publications...

I have no need to convert you, or prove anything to you. I know where you stand, and you know where I stand. My goal is to simply balance your bias to other readers.

However, the Arabia steamboat was a private venture, while the Bertrand was a non-profit one. Both did a decent job at recovering, conservation, documenting, educating and exhibiting their finds. The Atocha and Whydah have already been mentioned. The RMS Titanic is the most famous exhibit, and still fascinates the public. The Mary Rose Trust began as a private committee appealing to the gov't for protection of the Mary Rose (and rightfully so, IMO).

These projects happened prior to the infiltration of UNESCO principles into the minds of politicians. Since then few will bother with furthering the education with more finds, conservation and museums, as it is very expensive. It happens...just not as much as it would have if the good sides worked together. The very gov'ts that espouse such principles limit their funding on such history. You may win the argument publicly, but in the end, everyone loses.

 

[Alexandre]

Robert Stenuit is a good treasure hunter. So is David Mearns. And Goddio. And the people of DOS, that got into the "City of Cairo".

But very few are successful and even fewer make any money out of it. Mel Fisher was NOT a good treasure hunter.


https://sha.org/assets/documents/Technical_briefs_articles/TechBreifs.pdf


https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...asure-hunting-is-the-world-s-worst-investment

Nope. There is good AND bad treasure hunting...and good AND bad archaeology.

 

[Alexandre]

A treasure hunter... well... hunts treasures. But he needs to find them the earlier the possible, so as not to loose money (his and other's, mainly other's money).

He chased the dream and looked for it, for 20 years, on the wrong place - until he was corrected by Eugene Lyon's archival research.

That, after he spent more money that he ever made from, was heavily fined for having destructed coral reefs and the marine environment and had accidents with fatalities.

I understand you met the guy and admire him. But, my unbiased opinion is, he should have been doing something else, really.


"Melvin A. Fisher’s search for the Atocha was extraordinarilywidely publicized (Daley 1977; Sullivan 1987; Weller1996; Smith 2003; Jones 2011). The Atocha venture isrepeatedly said to have been worth $400 million (Johnson2000:152, 161; Smith 2003:197; Saar 2007:31). As willbe demonstrated below, however, this figure is highlyquestionable.

Unfortunately, the Atocha is a difficult situation to subject to a financial analysis. Its value is difficult to estimatebecause the recovered artifacts were not sold in a singleauction. Instead, Fisher put his company into liquidationand distributed the assets among the employees and investors using a point system (Smith 2003:168).

The expensesof the search for the Atocha are also difficult to calculatebecause of the length of the search (the search lasted fortwo decades) and because Fisher financed his operationsthrough a complex array of financial instruments andcorporate entities (Shaw 1974; Daley 1977:190–191;Trupp 1986:136–138; DiLucia 1989). This makes it difficult to estimate both the economic value of the artifactsrecovered and the expenses of the enterprise. Despitethese problems with the data, the notoriety of the searchfor the Atocha and the widespread acceptance of the claimthat the Atocha was worth $400 million make it importantto examine the claimed value of the recovered artifactsand to estimate whether the enterprise was profitable inthe end. Where there are strong arguments for alternative estimates, a range of estimates will be used in lieu ofa single value.The venture recovered 185,000 silver coins and 120gold coins (Malcom 2000; Kleeberg 2009:29–31).

Themajor auction of artifacts from the Atocha was held byChristie’s in June 1988 (Christie’s 1988). The Christie’sauction, however, did not provide a realistic market priceof the Atocha coins. The median price realized per silvercoin was $528, but of the 331 silver coins offered in thatauction, 246 coins (nearly three quarters of the coins offered) went unsold because the prices did not reach the reserve, which indicates that the reserves were set too high.In other words, $528 was not the actual price at whichAtocha coins could have been sold in 1988 (the marketclearing price), but a best case scenario involving the verybest coins in an auction that itself was a selection of thevery best objects recovered. Many Atocha coins are illegiblelumps of corroded silver in poor condition. Fisher himselfadmitted that fewer than 10% of the coins were marketable(Fins 1988:71). Burt Webber (1986:248) states that basedon his experience with the Concepción, collectors would endup paying a price that averages 3.5 times the melt value ofthe coins. Given their poor condition, Webber’s estimateof 3.5 times the silver value is a reasonable estimate of theaverage price of an Atocha coin.
As can be seen in Table 1, this results in the figure of $2,933,232.98 for the value ofthe Atocha silver coins.Nine hundred and fifty-nine silver bars were recoveredfrom the Atocha (Craig and Richards 2003:155–1961).Daley (1977:235–236) asserts that the IRS values bullion atthree times melt for silver items, and seven times for gold.This, however, appears to be an overvaluation, given thatthere is no substantial collectors’ premium on the silverbars. Frank Sedwick, the leading coin dealer specializing inSpanish American coinage, testified that he did not knowanyone who collected bullion items (Perdue 1991:852).A few dozen bars recovered from a shipwreck will command a premium from collectors as a curiosity, but whenhundreds are recovered the premium will collapse and theprice will approach the melt price of bullion. This is borneout by the fate of bars recovered from both the Atocha (959bars recovered) and the Central America (500 bars recovered), some of which have been melted to be marketed asjewelry and commemorative coins (Tampa Bay 1989:47;Tatge and Gottfried 2006). If there really were a significantcollectors’ premium, melting bars down to make jewelryand commemorative coins would not be an economic practice. It is thus more plausible to value the silver bars at themelt price. To account for the alternative possibility thatwhat Daley claims as the IRS valuation is, indeed, correct,that figure will be used as well and the results reported ina range. As summarized in Table 1, this results in a value forthe silver bars from the Atocha of $5,670,580.17, or, at thealternate valuation of three times melt, $17,011,740.51.Besides the silver bars and silver coins, items recovered from the Atocha included non-coin artifacts. Themore valuable items included three astrolabes and a coralrosary. Besides this, 120 gold coins were recovered fromthe Atocha, plus the artifacts recovered from another galleon that sank in 1622, the Santa Margarita. The items inthese categories sold for $2,194,973 at the Christie’s sale.Other artifacts were retained by Fisher and other investors and not sold in the Christie’s sale, but the Christie’ssale had most of the top quality items, so it is reasonable to assume that the artifacts retained were, at most,equal in value to the artifacts auctioned.

To account forthe retained artifacts, the value of the items from the Christie’s sale will accordingly be doubled to $4,389,946.Adding this number to the figures already derived for thesilver coins and the range for the silver bars results ina total value for the artifacts recovered from the Atochaand Santa Margarita ranging from $12,993,759.15 to$24,334,919.49 which is only 3–6% of the widely citedestimate of $400 million.A proper insight into the cost of the search for theAtocha could be achieved if all financial statements (thebalance sheets and the profit and loss accounts) for allFisher’s corporate entities were to be made available, butthese have never been published. There is, however, onetransaction that can be used as the basis for an estimate ofthe cost of finding the Atocha. Fisher sold the right to 10%of the Atocha and Santa Margarita to the Long Island investor Carl Paffendorf and his Vanguard Ventures for $5.25million (New York Times 1985). If $5.25 million was whatthese business people considered the right price for 10% ofthe Atocha venture, then it is reasonable to assume that thetotal capitalization of the Atocha search was $52.5 million.The statement made by the stockbroker Jerome U. Burke(Trupp 1986:137) that Burke raised money for Fisher at anannual rate of $3–4 million in the mid-1980s strengthensthe plausibility of the $52.5 million figure.

Another investor, Merlin Stickelber, invested $100,000 in exchange for0.5% of the Atocha (Stickelber 1998). This would result inan alternative capitalization for the cost of searching forthe Atocha, namely $20 million. These two figures presenta wide range, $20–52.5 million, but provide a reasonableestimate of the costs for the search and recovery of theAtocha.Considering that the estimate of the value of theartifacts recovered ranges from $12,993,759.15 to$24,334,919.49 and the estimated cost of the searchranges from $20 million to $52.5 million, the net result ofthe entire enterprise ranges from a loss of $39,506,240.85to a profit of $4,334,919.49. Two conclusions can be derived from these calculations.

The first conclusion is that,given that the estimated value of the artifacts recovered inthe Atocha venture ranges from $13 million to $24 million,the much publicized figure of $400 million is highly exaggerated.

The second conclusion is that the Atocha ventureprobably lost money. The $4.3 million profit would onlyapply if the silver bars were sold for high prices (and it appears they were not) and if the cost of the venture was $20million rather than $52.5 million."

Back off of Mel ... you did not know him... I did... and he would have never made a statement about you and the way you did something.

He is and will be the greatest seeker and finder of all time... regardless of how you try to chip away at that it will always be that way.

View attachment 1718873

 

[Alexandre]

"[FONT=&quot]Prices of the Atocha coins varies greatly. For instance the jewelry industry uses many of the common undated pieces for framed creations that appear extensively in tourist areas of Florida and the Caribbean. The coin of choice for jewelry is the small 2 reales. The price of these has skyrocketed as the supply of this denomination is much smaller than the larger size 4 and 8 reales. Expect to pay $300 to $500 for decent Atocha 2 Reales.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]In contrast the run-of-the-mill 8 and 4’s can be had for as little as $80 for a “one-sided” Grade IV with a certificate or if you have money to burn Mel will sell you the same piece for $650. but that’s Mel ringing up the cash register. Fancier pieces with dates and more weight left on the coins can bring up to $500 or so. The important word here is “certificate”. Without Mel Fisher’s famous cert, the coin is worth far less.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you just want to own a bit of history and aren’t concerned with the collector aspect, stick to the less expensive examples. There are lots of these coins around."

https://coinsite.com/what-are-reasonable-retail-prices-for-atocha-coins/

[/FONT]

Atocha coins have been and currently are the most sought shipwreck coins in the world.

Their value has increased over 300 % in last 10 years.

 

[ARC]

Posts deleted.

Pointless and off topic.

 

[Vox veritas]

In Cadiz, a place rich in naval history, this city being the ancient Phoenician Gades, the Museum of Underwater Archeology is called by the people of Cadiz "the naa museum". Naa "mean" nada "(nothing) in Cadiz dialect. It should be noted that the province of Cadiz is one of the richest in the world in shipwrecks, as it comprises the Guadalquivir river bar (Sanlucar) where hundreds of lost have occurred. But ...!

 

[Boatlode]

Mel Fisher was NOT a good treasure hunter.

Sorry Alexandre, but I have to disagree with you there. Besides being easily the biggest treasure find ever, the Atocha is also one of the most important archaeological finds of our time. I think the Fishers did a great job on both.

I also would like to remind you that were it not for Mel Fisher, the Atocha would still be nothing more than a lobster hangout and fish hook snag.

 

[ropesfish]

If someone might like to see the source on Alexandre's unattributed information above concerning the valuation of the Atocha find, it was published in "Technical Briefs In historical archaeology, 2013, 7: 19–30" by John Kleeberg- lawyer, numismatist and prolific author...not a big fan of the people who find the coins, apparently. He has cherry picked the information and downplayed the achievements of the people who found and salvaged these lost ships as well as turning a blind eye to the real rewards of this sort of endeavor, both financial and intangible. Most people who participate financially in "treasure hunts", whether land or sea based, are not just in it for the financial reward. It is the way that they can be a part of the adventure, the work and to a lesser degree, the treasure at the end of the hunt. It's about the hunt more than the find. Note that the Burt Webbers, Mel Fishers, Tracy Bowdens and a dozen other principals go right on to other projects even after they realize financial success. "Treasure hunting" better described as "Shipwreck salvage archaeology" is not the same as 'academic treasure hunting"... mostly because the non-academic sort is self-funded.
Apparently the academic archaeology world would prefer that no one ever found these wrecks...The academic folks would never have found the wrecks that Kip Wagner, GME, Odyssey, Mel Fisher, Burt Webber, Herbo Humphreys, Art McKee or Jack Haskins found. The artifacts from the Maravillas, Atocha, Margarita, the remains of the 1715 Fleet, Consolacion 1681, and others would never have seen the light of day.

"Voltaire: “The best is the enemy of the good.”
Confucius: "Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without."
Shakespeare: “Striving to better, oft we mar what's well.” [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
No matter who says it, how they say it or in what era it is said...it is still true. The archaeological record can never be perfect. Never is there a dig 'performed under strict approved archaeological methods of excavation and preservation' with absolutely no shortcuts nor errors or 'salvage archaeology' or 'treasure hunting' projects that meets every criteria. As GME, the Fishers, Odyssey, Dan Porter, everyone that worked for 3 years in the Dominican Republic with no division and the rest of us are well aware -those criteria/goalposts can be moved at the whim of any number of elected and/or un-elected officials.
The recovery of submerged cultural heritage that would otherwise be lost to the ravages of time, sediment and saltwater is the goal.
I submit that salvage archaeology is an asset to the cultural record- finding the wrecks that no one else can or will locate and recover.



Here is a link to the entire article excerpted: https://sha.org/assets/documents/Technical_briefs_articles/TechBreifs.pdf

His CV, which might give one a more clear insight into where he stands: John Kleeberg - Academia.edu


His accomplishments and honors in the numismatic world: https://coinweek.com/dealers-compan...t-2018-huntington-award-at-december-ceremony/

 

[ARC]

On reflection...

Now I wish I left the other posts that you did not quote me on Alexandre.

Just like the slow crawl of marijuana legalization across the U.S currently... it boils down to 2 main groups who oppose each other's view due to "fear" of the other's actions...

But just like this... at some point... You must remove the teat to let it feed itself...and in the case of finding wrecks...in the name of growth and REAL understanding of our history.

You cannot learn from that in which you do not know... And more importantly... what you cannot find.

And in a timely fashion... especially when both sides are aware that this planet is on the constant of "taking it back".

Day by day... little by little... we are all loosing.

The TH'r wants the gold... the Archie wants the artifacts... and both would not mind the "glory".

Gold does not corrode... but the rest does... does it not make perfect sense that both parties should come together on a LEVEL playing field ?

Wrecks should be permitted to be searched for and found by reasonable means and the finder should be included and benefit from the find.

This to me seems like common sense and most of all fair.

Lets not forget that it is ALL of us who will learn and grow from our pasts regardless of its "cargo".

And... it would be nice wouldn't ya think... if we could do this IN OUR lifetime... AND whilst there is something other than just non ferrous metal left to find ?

IF... Archie's are so concerned with preserving historical data like they so claim...

Then they better realize 2 things when it comes to amount of shipwrecks that hold significance... regardless of to "who"...

They better do it quicker... and by any means possible that produces results.

 

[Salvor6]

It is useless to try and reason with the archies. They are like radical terrorists. It's either their way or no way. They will not compromise. One archie famously said "I would rather see it all rot away in the ocean than have treasure hunters recover it."

If they really cared about cultural heritage they would join the treasure salvage projects to make sure the Th'ers did the job right.

 

[ARC]

That statement is ignorant.

It makes one wonder where it stems from... the controlling type ?... Selfish type ?...Greedy type ? .. which ... what ?

"You cant play with my marbles ! These are MY marbles ! "

I remember those types in school.... yeppers.

 

[Alexandre]

As I recently wrote to some big shark that wanted to come after the 100+ wrecks with treasures in the Azores, I accept any proposal that does not involve the selling of artifacts.

Solve that and I am game.

Wrecks should be permitted to be searched for and found by reasonable means and the finder should be included and benefit from the find.

This to me seems like common sense and most of all fair.

Lets not forget that it is ALL of us who will learn and grow from our pasts regardless of its "cargo".

And... it would be nice wouldn't ya think... if we could do this IN OUR lifetime... AND whilst there is something other than just non ferrous metal left to find ?

 

[Vox veritas]

Since the dawn of the history of humanity, gold (and silver) were causes and reasons for intrigues, conspiracies, conquests, looting, crimes, etc. Now we are being led to believe that all the immense potential of precious metals that lie at the bottom of the seas and oceans can not and must not have commercial or profit ends! Very curious! Many countries are accumulating gold reserves and others want their reserves to be returned (like Germany). The price of yellow metal is multiplied by five. And we are still led to believe that "maritime" gold is not touched in love of culture. But gentlemen. They must think we are idiots!

 

[Alexandre]

You should know the difference between salvage and archaeology.

You are not an idiot, so don't pretend to be one.

As I said, find a way to recover these artifacts without selling them, and I am game.

Since the dawn of the history of humanity, gold (and silver) were causes and reasons for intrigues, conspiracies, conquests, looting, crimes, etc. Now we are being led to believe that all the immense potential of precious metals that lie at the bottom of the seas and oceans can not and must not have commercial or profit ends! Very curious! Many countries are accumulating gold reserves and others want their reserves to be returned (like Germany). The price of yellow metal is multiplied by five. And we are still led to believe that "maritime" gold is not touched in love of culture. But gentlemen. They must think we are idiots!

 

[ARC]

As I recently wrote to some big shark that wanted to come after the 100+ wrecks with treasures in the Azores, I accept any proposal that does not involve the selling of artifacts.

Solve that and I am game.

Alexandre... lets be real here.

First... Searching for anything costs money... and in a majority of cases... LOTS of money.

This is unavoidable for any entity... be it a funded entity... a private entity... or just some independent guy.

It costs money to gain as we all know... this is the general rule to anything where the goal is to gain something... be it gaining knowledge or financial gains.

Equally... there is the cost that is not a financial one... Time.

Time is a factor that is the most costly to all.

Especially those to follow us who's lives could and would be enriched from the discoveries that await being found yet remain tangled in red tape rotting away.

Its a shame to think...

That the act of discovery has been made "wrong" to do by anyone without a credential... and those with the credentials refuse to partner with anyone other than others with credentials.

To me... This has always been such a close minded approach and nowadays... not one accepted by the new generation of thinking.

One must "think outside the box" to gain now.

When it comes to locating and recovering wrecks in a timely fashion as to avoid loosing it to pirates... or the elements... is of the utmost importance.

For TIME and LOSS is the cost that cannot be "funded" or "raised".

That "thinking in the box" when it comes to this... is and has been a slow, sparse... and most times an empty box.

Seems to me... thinking outside the box is the "solve"... and a new beginning to a new way of thinking... and new discoveries for all.

 

[Alexandre]

So... if there are no gold or silver on board... you let it rot?

So, some ships, mainly Portuguese and Spanish between 1500 and 1800, will be "investigated" and everything else - Greek, Roman, Phoenician, local African and American dug out canoes, lake horse powered ferry boats, medieval galleys, chinese junks, passenger paqueboats - will rot, be left to elements?

Alexandre... lets be real here.

First... Searching for anything costs money... and in a majority of cases... LOTS of money.

This is unavoidable for any entity... be it a funded entity... a private entity... or just some independent guy.

It costs money to gain as we all know... this is the general rule to anything where the goal is to gain something... be it gaining knowledge or financial gains.

Equally... there is the cost that is not a financial one... Time.

Time is a factor that is the most costly to all.

Especially those to follow us who's lives could and would be enriched from the discoveries that await being found yet remain tangled in red tape rotting away.

 

[ARC]

Well again... being real...

Those types of wrecks are for the archies to seek... We all have our "areas of interest" ... correct ?

We all have "desired gains" from the work that is done... correct ?

BUT !

Its the treasure hunters that will stumble upon wrecks of "no interest" to them AND would be more than happy to turn the archies onto them IF they had a "relationship" and the "go ahead and search"... and a "finders fee".

I think you would find that most of the treasure hunters you sit with here would be more than happy to turn over information to archies IF they had a relationship instead of a "standoff".

I also think that the Thr's... at least the ones I have had the pleasure to know... would strive in their searches to work in the ethical standards to which archies fear are getting "tossed out" in the quests.

I also see something else...

The donations of locations of wrecks being found by them in their quests to be immense... probably overwhelming to archies.

Just think... the possibilities of knowledge's ... The answers to questions... the solidities of theories that could be just a relationship and partnership away.

And lets not forget... the most important...

The discoveries themselves.

 

[ARC]

I mean come on man... its a BIG world out there.

And 70% of it is underwater.

over 200 lifetimes worth awaits finding...

Don't you think we should get busy by any means possible ?

You and 1000 like you... could not even begin to scrape the tip of it.

Sheesh... There is so much being lost everyday we wait... with hands tied.

Realize this...

The ONLY thing that is gonna be LEFT for you or the archies to find at this pace...

IS THE GOLD ! heh

IF... that hasn't already been pirated as well.