UNESCO Treaty on Submerged Cultural Heritage -Who has signed it? Who has not?

[Alexandre]

Let's make a deal then... you keep off Iberian wrecks and then you can dig any wreck you'd like.

That way, I assure that my nautical heritage is not blown away in pieces - as has happened with all Spanish and Portuguese shipwrecks "worked" by treasure hunters.

I mean come on man... its a BIG world out there.

And 70% of it is underwater.

over 200 lifetimes worth awaits finding...

Don't you think we should get busy by any means possible ?

You and 1000 like you... could not even begin to scrape the tip of it.

Sheesh... There is so much being lost everyday we wait... with hands tied.

Realize this...

The ONLY thing that is gonna be LEFT for you or the archies to find at this pace...

IS THE GOLD ! heh

IF... that hasn't already been pirated as well.

 

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[ARC]

I care...

I care about the history.

I care about the story.

I respect...

I respect that a wreck may have been a place of someone's last resting place.

I respect the fact that a wreck once belonged to someone or someplace.

I respect that it was something that has been lost.

But mostly...

I care AND respect MOSTLY that is has been found by someone... ANYONE.

You should... in essence... the very essence actually... of archeology... of discovery... of knowledge and in the name of future generations to follow...

Feel the same way.

 

[ARC]

Let's make a deal then... you keep off Iberian wrecks and then you can dig any wreck you'd like.

That way, I assure that my nautical heritage is not blown away in pieces - as has happened with all Spanish and Portuguese shipwrecks "worked" by treasure hunters.

Well... I am an armchair treasure hunter... SO... unless I can use a leaf blower from here... your ok

I will not break any laws and risk trouble for the sake of financial gain... I would rather be poor than in jail... but that's me.

I am on the outside looking in on this... and my viewpoints are from an outsiders perspective.

I knew Mel and his wife and was offered a job by him at a very young age ... which I did not end up taking him up on.

But like all kids... AND adults... treasure has a "lure" and is interesting to all walks of life of all ages... for many and all reasons.

PS... I will add...

IF I got a "green light"... or some one has a legal PERMITTED deal where I could "gain" from work underwater...

They will find no better finder than me.

 

[Alexandre]

If you are lying wounded on the floor of a deserted highway, with your pockets filled with gold coins, would you prefer to be found by:

1) a gold digger, or

2) the police and a medical emergency team?

I care...

I care about the history.

I care about the story.

I respect...

I respect that a wreck may have been a place of someone's last resting place.

I respect the fact that a wreck once belonged to someone or someplace.

I respect that it was something that has been lost.

But mostly...

I care AND respect MOSTLY that is has been found by someone... ANYONE.

You should... in essence... the very essence actually... of archeology... of discovery... of knowledge and in the name of future generations to follow...

Feel the same way.

 

[ARC]

If you are lying wounded on the floor of a deserted highway, with your pockets filled with gold coins, would you prefer to be found by:

1) a gold digger, or

2) the police and a medical emergency team?

lol ... this is a hell of a scenario / question... and no offense... laughable... and I did actually chuckle aloud.

I mean that's silly... the answer could be debated for a bit as well. lol

I mean come on... IF I were "wounded"... I would hope the treasure hunter had some EMT training . lol

The advantage would be ... HE MIGHT BE CHEAPER... AND ! ! ! I could just pay on the spot ! ! ! heh

But of course... you are weighing "life" / "well being" here.

This would be a no brainer for me.

BUT... lets switch that silly thing up...

What if YOU were laying there wounded... with a Dead Sea Scroll in you pocket... and the same 2 types approached... BOTH able to save your life...

ONLY... the medical team only excepts immediate payment.

:P

 

[ARC]

Healthcare prices here are out of control... and you wonder why people are out there looking for gold ? lol

 

[Vox veritas]

You should know the difference between salvage and archaeology.

You are not an idiot, so don't pretend to be one.

As I said, find a way to recover these artifacts without selling them, and I am game.

Alexandre, you argue hypotheses. I argue historical realities. You as an archaeologist surely know that Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Vandals, Goths, Spaniards and even Portuguese have conquered in pursuit of gold, and even in the twentieth century the same thing happened (particularly Germans and Japanese) and continues to happen. Wars and gold go hand in hand. Archaeologists and treasure hunters? The profession of treasure hunter is as old as humanity and there have been laws for millennia. Then comes underwater archeology (approximately 1957 with Nino Lamboglia and George Bass). Something over 50 years. So it is worth asking: who is the one that has invaded or usurped?
I represented the Italian Aquarius Cooperative for several years. The director was Dr. Alice Freschi. This entity had more than 300 underwater archeology campaigns all carried out for the Ministry of Culture of Italy. I offered "non-profit" projects that were not accepted. This same entity got in 1992, through my efforts as a representative, an authorization in Spain! IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE TO WORK, BECAUSE THERE WAS NO WAY TO OBTAIN INVESTORS. THERE WAS NO PROFIT. THERE WERE NO INCENTIVES.

 

[Blak bart]

Well put vox !

 

[Alexandre]

I am, or was, a scientific partner of two European funded projects

http://forseadiscovery.eu/

https://imareculture.weebly.com

and also an Australian one:

https://maritime-heritage.com/dossier-shipwrecks-roaring-40’s


and a leader on another, on Sharjah Emirate, UAE:

https://openexplorer.nationalgeographic.com/expedition/sharjah


No artifacts were ever sold.

There are funds out there. You just need to have a good project and some ethics. And work really hard.

IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE TO WORK, BECAUSE THERE WAS NO WAY TO OBTAIN INVESTORS. THERE WAS NO PROFIT. THERE WERE NO INCENTIVES.

 

[Vox veritas]

And .... approximately in 1989 I met Francisco Alves (the father of the underwater archeology of Portugal) at a luncheon in Lisbon. I proposed to publish a book with ALL the data I had about shipwrecks in Portuguese waters. This publication had to be sponsored by the museum that Alves directed. He agreed, but ... not all shipwrecks would be published. In other words, the list had to pass a filter of allowed and forbidden. It did not suit that they met! I did not accept to publish with these conditions, but in 2006 I published my first book with an extensive list of Spanish shipwrecks that were shipwrecked in Portuguese waters.

 

[Alexandre]

Thanks, Kanacki!

As for the question, 100 years after date of loss, every shipwreck gets automatic UNESCO protection.

As for the historical qualification it depends on countries - I have classified as an historical underwater preserve an ex-Liberty ship sunk in 1961:

Underwater Archaeological Parks ? MPAs Portugal


All the best

Hello Alexandre I am pleased to read your mothers cancer is in remission.

I have question about UNESCO convention. How many years before a shipwreck or aircraft becomes deemed historical? 75 -100 year plus?

Kanacki

 

[agflit]

So...."artifact"..being the key word here right?...that being the case...bullion being simply smelted gold /silver...cast in a "bar form", would not in any proper sense of the definition be an "artifact" right?. Since it has only intrinsic market value based on it's refined state, has not been "minted" as a monetary piece, or cast into some specific other form than "bullion"... you would agree that it would be acceptable to recover "bullion".

Am I correct here, or am I missing some other convoluted logic?

 

[KANACKI]

Thanks, Kanacki!

As for the question, 100 years after date of loss, every shipwreck gets automatic UNESCO protection.

As for the historical qualification it depends on countries - I have classified as an historical underwater preserve an ex-Liberty ship sunk in 1961:

Underwater Archaeological Parks ? MPAs Portugal


All the best

Hello Alexandre

Thank you for your clarification. I have hypothetical question for example run by you. If an aircraft crashed in 1970's and the remains technically abandoned by the owner and insurance was paid out on the aircraft yet no interest in recovering the lost cargo. Would it wreck be deemed a permissible salvage site under the the current interpretation of UNESCO convention? Who legally owns such abandoned wrecks? The past owner? The insurance company? or the State under the UNESCO convention?

Thanking you in advance its late in Micronesia.

Kanacki

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

No political comments.

 

[crashbandicoot]

Color me confused!!!!

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Color me confused!!!!

?

 

[crashbandicoot]

?

If I wasn,t so confused I might could answer that!!!! No,just confused about all the wrangling and you,re one but so are you but worse type of stuff. I really get depressed by this sort of constant bickering. Just part of the world today I guess.