What do you guys use for moving big rocks and boulders? Making a "bouldering" kit

[SunshineMiner]

What do you guys use for moving big rocks and boulders? Making a "bouldering" kit

I'm looking into making a little "boulder" kit for those rocks that are too big to move by pry bar and hand. I'm also not very good at judging the size and weight of these rocks.. I saw a nice little formula somewhere online that was basically: L'xW'xH' x 170lbs = mass in lbs / 2000(for tons) Basically the rock/s im looking to move are about 6'x3.5'x1.5/2ft, basically right around 5-7Klbs. or 2.5-3.5 tons. But its also where they're positioned that makes a pry par ineffective in addition to not being in a safe spot, and the even worse tragedy of ending up in the hole im tying to clear in the first place Maybe im over estimating my rock because I havent measured it, but i also like to give a little bit of a safety margin so i try to overestimate. Especially moving heavy objects.

I will say one thing first. Cables freak me out. Not in an omg im going to run away.. But in a, I have a very healthy respect for what they are capable when things go wrong sort of way

That being said I'd PREFER to try and use chains(which i realize aren't that light, but most of my trips aren't more than a 1/4 mile from a car) because when they break, they kinda drop instead of the good ol cable whip. Having trouble finding a cheap come along or cable winch at the moment.

Straps - Most straps that have tighteners on them are rated at 2Klbs or under, and the 2Klbs ones are $$$. BUT i will be using these normal straps for anchors and reach:
for normal trees
Erickson 4 in. x 6 ft. Tree Saver/Tow Strap - Tractor Supply Co.
for those slightly nicer anchors/double wrapping/or extra reach
Traveller® Winch Strap with Shackle, 2-1/2 in. x 12 ft., 10,000 lb. Capacity - Tractor Supply Co.
and for wrapping rocks for now, 1-2 of these. i'm going to try and get some sort of liner(possibly used fire hose?) to put on the straps where it rubs the rock
Reese Towpower® Tow Strap with Loops - Tractor Supply Co.

Now to the cable part I dislike. Sometimes you just can't beat the prices for the budget builds but an 8Klb cable winch from HF... I extremely dislike being near the cable that im cranking on being the weakest link in the "chain." I don't have the luxury of being able to afford power winches, and i'm trying to keep it as portable as possible as well. But it does have some decent reviews as well for being pretty reliable and moving decent sized objects.
8000 Lb. Cable Winch Puller

I have thought about putting chain in there somewhere that is rated at saaaay 6,000lbs, 2K less than the winch. That way, if something breaks, its hopefully the chain.

My biggest problem is inexperience. I was able to take a Rescue Systems 1 class where we moved 10,000lb slabs of cement around on bars and things like that. But we never did any sort moving heavy objects with anything other than very heavy duty chains and chain come along systems that were built like a tank. So I dont have experience moving heavy rocks out of holes. I've watched a fair amount of videos and spent most of the night/and morning researching as much as I could but that doesn't cut it when I'm working under a rock that can potentially roll on me

Thats where you guys come in Learning from others experience can be VERY valuable

Whats the average size boulders/rocks you guys move? What do you guys use to move them and whats the rating on said equipment? Any recommendations and safety tips? What do you guys think about said posted equipment for this little "boulder" kit?

Thanks!

Sunshine

 

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[Jeff95531]

Very educational Dennis. Thanks for sharing.

 

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[KevinInColorado]

good point on the gas, but I have never experienced any bad gas in a mine. yet.... of course the idea with the winch is you have a man on top keeping an eye out and maintain contact with a walkie talkie. As you may have guessed I have a particular shaft I want to check out and I don't think its more than thirty feet deep. reading on here I do like the idea of replacing the cable with climbing rope though. I dont think it would be that dangerous with the proper set up. As for the bats. yes they do like those old mines sometimes don't they?

Have a second safety rope with a friend paying it out as you go via climbing harnesses on both ends. Safety first!

 

[MadJack_ME]

For anything I can't drag with a chain-choker, we wrap a 20' or 25' heavy chain around the bottom of the boulder hooking it in the back. Toss extra chain over or on top of boulder,then attach the chain's end to a come-a-long cable coming over the boulder. Rolling is always easier than dragging.

Note: INSPECT ALL parts before winching! We had a 2 ton +or- rock under full tension and noticed 1 pin had backed out. My 'check underwear light' came on!!!

 

[Mackaydon]

C-4 would work, but probably not a good solution.
Just kidding; don't try it.
Don......

 

[Actionman]

I have taken old pant legs and turned them into sandbags. Can even fill them on site. I drape these over the cable.

 

[63bkpkr]

Lot's of very good info! I've not needed to move really large boulders - so I've used "chain type" tire chains at the boulder to wrap around it as much as possible and if the chains do not go all the way around I close the gap with a short length of 5/16" chain.

As far as pulling power I've used the 8000 pound rated Harbor Freight cable puller unit, the 4000 pound model is not worth anything "Out There".

I like to use about a 5' or so length of chain attached to the end of the cable including the extra length of cable I bring along, 50' in length when "dead man" locations are not close to the object (no trees, no boulders, etc.). About trees being used as a "dead man" - protect the tree with several wraps of something so the tree is not damaged. NEVER pass a cable around the tree itself, I watched a tow truck operator saw a telephone pole almost in half with his cable. I like the double sand bag idea for loading the cable so it mostly just falls to the ground!!

To pull or roll is much better than pry as you load your shoulders less especially if you use a snatch block! Tractor Supply stores carry some nice snatch blocks.

Best of Success out there.................63bkpkr

 

[IMPDLN]

LOL, saw a telephone pole in half, LOL. That ain't no tow truck operator, that is a hack. Snatch blocks are your best friend winching. Whoever that guy was probably didn't have that job very long. Dennis

 

[TAKODA]

I'm like the irishman ..... I make the big rock smaller . One way or another .

 

[minerrick]

Reed uploaded a Sierra Blaster Video- I am in the "make the big rock smaller" camp:

 

[Sticks]

I used the Sierra Blaster on a 3 month trip this season. Best tool I own hands down. This is the most useful invention to small scale mining since the gold pan. I wouldn't trade my Ryobi er160 for anything. Make sure you buy lots of bits and let the machine do the work, don't lean into the bit. Use a carpet for fly rock.. trust me. Both are excellent products when your ready to get after it. Capstan rope winch will be my next buy. Spent way too much time packing heavy rocks to the top of the pile. There is a nice one with small Honda on it for under 1k and weighs under 18lbs, 1 ton straight line pull. That will easily handle the majority of what we run into. The others just get reduced to size. Sorry to dredge up this thread but thought there was some great info in it. Minerrick has tons of knowledge on this subject and I owe him thanks for referring me to the right tools. Best to you all, be safe. Simpson Winch click for info on that winch. I am not at all affiliated so please don't label as spam. Just trying to save you the trouble of research.

 

[RotGrub]

I've read through this thread and you must get a better understanding of rigging and hoisting principals before you get yourself into a bad situation. Many years ago I was certified as a heavy construction rigger. Spent many days in classroom training and in the field. The biggest difference between construction and mining hoisting is we were provided all the weights and load angles prior to lifts. In moving any heavy object you first question is "what is the weight / load". As a miner I understand the difficulty in determining this and have consulted a few geologists regarding how do you determine the weight of boulders. In short there is no easy answer as boulders come in a wide range of density. If you know the species of rock (which I don't) there are basic density tables based on 1 cubic foot. You would then estimate the volume of the boulder and identify the "guess weight" and add 20%. Another way is to break off a section and weigh it and record the estimated volume. Once you have your scientific guess to determine the weight you can verify how much of a safety factor you have based on the capacity of the winch / puller. The closer you get to the winch capacity (based on the "guessed weight") will determine how you proceed.

The other part I cannot stress enough is do not use import rigging / hardware ever. You can buy 3/4" shackles from Crosby with a certified rating of 4.75 T for about $40 each (not cheap) or you can buy the ones from China with the same "stamped rating" for about $10... I have personally seen many import hardware fail on loads 1/2 their rating. Buy quality certified rigging (straps, slings, cables & shackles) and take care of it. This especially is true with come-alongs.

The next issue is to identify the weakest link in the rigging; everything must be rated more than the winch. You need to fully understand the principals behind a mechanical advantage (block and tackle) When you go into 2-4-6 part lines everything between the load and winch must be rated for the increased capacity. I could on and on about this but instead I will attach some links to point you in the right direction. Rigging / mechanical advantages are fascinating subjects but demand respect. There are many rigging books online and a basic understanding will go a long ways in keeping you safe.

https://www.thecrosbygroup.com/html/en-US/pdf/pgs/77.pdf
http://americanworkshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Basic-Rigging-00106-09.pdf
Rigging With Slings: Basic hitches, Working Load Limits, Sling angle, Reach

https://www.wyeth-scott.com/

 

[Reed Lukens]

I disagree... If everything is rated more than the winch, when the line gets pinched, the winch breaks. We use a smaller line at the Boulder to keep the winch safe. Simply put - do you want to tear apart a winch and replace all of the broken gears, or a few dollars for a safety cable...

 

[gold tramp]

I like to keep it simple a heavy duty hand winch, chains and jacks. we have a little cradle made for the smaller stuff to drag out of a hole it has skids to help it manuver over the rocks.
we also use a gin pole type set up it works for lifting the cradle out with the lighter cob loads.

simple 3/8 bolt and rigg plate, i use just a star drill for the hole its hand work but not bad.

GT...........







View attachment 1210357 View attachment 1210358 View attachment 1210359

 

[fowledup]

I'm a common sense mother of invention type guy. I know if my truck breaks down and I need a wrench, a Snap-on wrench will be less likely to break than say my $10 set of Fu-king wrenches (that is an actual brand by the way). But being poor white mountain trash with a, lack of funding I know that if I take my time, use a little Liquid Wrench or Kroil and apply a little less pressure that Fu-king will do just fine. I'm not knocking top knotch name brand gear, if you can afford it go for it. My motto is my gold pays for my gold. California being what it is now a days I ain't making a lot O'money on the gold, hence the lack of new gear in the shop. I use old garage sale tire chains, stretched out logging chain, harbor frieght come alongs and basically what ever I can scrounge. The difference is I rig for failure. I rig it knowing, expecting, and taking the precautions that it will fail on me. 99% of the time it doesn't fail, and I'm pleasantly surprised, but for that 1% I've already taken the proper precautions and removed myself from harms way. The trick is to never never never allow yourself to become complacent. Check and recheck. I think alot of the time we get too caught up in the gotta have this or that cause it's the sh--! Takes the fun out of it and the satisfaction of whooping Murphy with the brain rather than the pocketbook. KISS principle rules!

 

[Jeff95531]

Star drill - a steel rock drill with a star-shaped point that is used for making holes in stones or masonry; it is operated by hitting the end with a hammer while rotating it between blows.

Already learned something. Thanks Herb!

 

[RotGrub]

I disagree... If everything is rated more than the winch, when the line gets pinched, the winch breaks. We use a smaller line at the Boulder to keep the winch safe. Simply put - do you want to tear apart a winch and replace all of the broken gears, or a few dollars for a safety cable...

I disagree. Most winches are designed with fail-safety. Whether it is a hand winch, electrical, gas or hydraulic hoist the manufacture has a built in fail safe. Safety should not be compromised by the costs of repair. Agreeing to have a cable or strap fail is a very dangerous condition and choice. When you are moving heavy objects (not smaller boulders well below the lifting system capabilities) one must ensure and observe the entire operation including the line path and other potential risks. I would caution any advice regarding this subject which ignores the prime objective which is safety. I attached just few links my my previous post which should give some insight of basic rigging principals. Further education should be encouraged of anyone attempting to move large objects.

 

[gold tramp]

Believe me when i say spare no expense and only use good quality equipment if you work like we do day in day out moving the heavy stuff, rock destroys even the best equipment.
nothing worse than a break down while diggin.

GT........................

 

[Reed Lukens]

I disagree. Most winches are designed with fail-safety. Whether it is a hand winch, electrical, gas or hydraulic hoist the manufacture has a built in fail safe.

Unfortunately that statement is not true. Many winches used in mining do not have a fail safe and never have. It doesn't matter how many classes you have had, this isn't industrial rigging. None of the old pto winches have fail safes either and many of those are what are used out in the field on tractors, jeeps and so on. If you don't use a lighter weight sling, the winch will strip if the rock gets bound, your cable and everything is oversized, and you are not right there at the winch to stop it in time. A lighter sling is a no brainier for miners in the field.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rbUs2WSz-HM

 

[Red James Cash]

An interesting video here guys on moving heavy stone.

 

[IMPDLN]

Just another note on rigging. Pulling is not the same as lifting. Rigging for lifts requires much more knowledge and is way more dangerous and certainly requires all the best equipment as well as knowledge. Especially knowing capacities and load angles. Winching is way different than lifting. When stuff fails winching not much happens if setup is proper. Everything just comes to a screeching halt. When something fails during a lift, gravity takes over and crap hits the fan as stuff falls back to the ground.

Chinese junk winching.....not for me. We only use proper equipment. When using the right stuff, setup properly, you don't have failures provided you take care of your equipment.

Using old pto type winches that know no limits, you bet you can and will break stuff. Especially if trying to do things half arsed. We use modern equipment and modern winches will just stop at it's limits. That's what makes snatch blocks so important. They effectively double the pull, with the same winch without more strain. Proper rigging always involves equipment rated higher than the winch. You don't let cables and chains rust. You always lay out chains straight with no kinks to prevent stretching and kinking links. You keep it all lubricated and maintained and your rigging will last many hundreds of uses. Dennis