What do you guys use for moving big rocks and boulders? Making a "bouldering" kit

[SunshineMiner]

What do you guys use for moving big rocks and boulders? Making a "bouldering" kit

I'm looking into making a little "boulder" kit for those rocks that are too big to move by pry bar and hand. I'm also not very good at judging the size and weight of these rocks.. I saw a nice little formula somewhere online that was basically: L'xW'xH' x 170lbs = mass in lbs / 2000(for tons) Basically the rock/s im looking to move are about 6'x3.5'x1.5/2ft, basically right around 5-7Klbs. or 2.5-3.5 tons. But its also where they're positioned that makes a pry par ineffective in addition to not being in a safe spot, and the even worse tragedy of ending up in the hole im tying to clear in the first place Maybe im over estimating my rock because I havent measured it, but i also like to give a little bit of a safety margin so i try to overestimate. Especially moving heavy objects.

I will say one thing first. Cables freak me out. Not in an omg im going to run away.. But in a, I have a very healthy respect for what they are capable when things go wrong sort of way

That being said I'd PREFER to try and use chains(which i realize aren't that light, but most of my trips aren't more than a 1/4 mile from a car) because when they break, they kinda drop instead of the good ol cable whip. Having trouble finding a cheap come along or cable winch at the moment.

Straps - Most straps that have tighteners on them are rated at 2Klbs or under, and the 2Klbs ones are $$$. BUT i will be using these normal straps for anchors and reach:
for normal trees
Erickson 4 in. x 6 ft. Tree Saver/Tow Strap - Tractor Supply Co.
for those slightly nicer anchors/double wrapping/or extra reach
Traveller® Winch Strap with Shackle, 2-1/2 in. x 12 ft., 10,000 lb. Capacity - Tractor Supply Co.
and for wrapping rocks for now, 1-2 of these. i'm going to try and get some sort of liner(possibly used fire hose?) to put on the straps where it rubs the rock
Reese Towpower® Tow Strap with Loops - Tractor Supply Co.

Now to the cable part I dislike. Sometimes you just can't beat the prices for the budget builds but an 8Klb cable winch from HF... I extremely dislike being near the cable that im cranking on being the weakest link in the "chain." I don't have the luxury of being able to afford power winches, and i'm trying to keep it as portable as possible as well. But it does have some decent reviews as well for being pretty reliable and moving decent sized objects.
8000 Lb. Cable Winch Puller

I have thought about putting chain in there somewhere that is rated at saaaay 6,000lbs, 2K less than the winch. That way, if something breaks, its hopefully the chain.

My biggest problem is inexperience. I was able to take a Rescue Systems 1 class where we moved 10,000lb slabs of cement around on bars and things like that. But we never did any sort moving heavy objects with anything other than very heavy duty chains and chain come along systems that were built like a tank. So I dont have experience moving heavy rocks out of holes. I've watched a fair amount of videos and spent most of the night/and morning researching as much as I could but that doesn't cut it when I'm working under a rock that can potentially roll on me

Thats where you guys come in Learning from others experience can be VERY valuable

Whats the average size boulders/rocks you guys move? What do you guys use to move them and whats the rating on said equipment? Any recommendations and safety tips? What do you guys think about said posted equipment for this little "boulder" kit?

Thanks!

Sunshine

 

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[63bkpkr]

Top Notch Equipment is also a pleasure to use because it just works. Hefty 1's father designed and built some of the best gas powered winches I've ever seen, winching speed then a gear box change for faster retrieval of the paid out cable. The engine melted during a forest fire but the winch itself still functioned. I would love to see that unit in action again!

Even for Chinese tools, do not purchase the lowest rating unit as it is junk. Best of success to you all....................63bkpkr

 

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[Jason in Enid]

The biggest problem with the Chinese junk is they have no quality control. One person may buy something and extol it's wonderful service and cheap price for a decade, while the next 10 people buy the same thing and have it break within days. I have always preferred to buy something once and know it's going to last!

 

[Reed Lukens]

Just another note on rigging. Pulling is not the same as lifting. Rigging for lifts requires much more knowledge and is way more dangerous and certainly requires all the best equipment as well as knowledge. Especially knowing capacities and load angles. Winching is way different than lifting. When stuff fails winching not much happens if setup is proper. Everything just comes to a screeching halt. When something fails during a lift, gravity takes over and crap hits the fan as stuff falls back to the ground.

Chinese junk winching.....not for me. We only use proper equipment. When using the right stuff, setup properly, you don't have failures provided you take care of your equipment.

Using old pto type winches that know no limits, you bet you can and will break stuff. Especially if trying to do things half arsed. We use modern equipment and modern winches will just stop at it's limits. That's what makes snatch blocks so important. They effectively double the pull, with the same winch without more strain. Proper rigging always involves equipment rated higher than the winch. You don't let cables and chains rust. You always lay out chains straight with no kinks to prevent stretching and kinking links. You keep it all lubricated and maintained and your rigging will last many hundreds of uses. Dennis

That's why we build our own rock slings. You just can't go and find good boulder slings made with copper swages at any store. All of the ones that you see for sale and even the Keene slings have aluminum swages and they just don't last. I've seen people blow the brass gearing out of their pto winches when logging and a tree jams. But these were kids using the owners equipment with out any guidence... We've pulled hundreds of boulders with these home made slings and they are fast, just drop and pull. When truck pulling with these you can drop and pull another boulder every few minutes and get between 10 to 20 an hour if it's a short pull. After the sling takes its shape after the first few pulls, it really is as simple as just dropping it around the boulder and saying pull to the driver. It turns into a perfect mushroom shape and retains that shape until one of the leads breaks after hundreds of pulls.

 

[2cmorau]

I have the Stapp winch, and have had only one cable snap on me, the whole operation taking place moving the rock that was underwater
pully was anchored to a tree from my winch cable kinda like a L shape, the snap of the cable accured underwater, i was amazed how the cable reacted to the resistance of water, stopped dead with in a few feet
A more portable winch is my Lugall which does have a safety feature to it, the bar has a break-away, so if you excede the limit it will bend on ya, no snaping of cable
if ya can, never do a straight pull , anchor a pully to a tree, not close enough use cable
nice Reed, not cheap crimping and cutter s, buy get the big boys just wasting uyour time when u see the cable slip through the crimp,

i enjoy the rocknet, chains slip more often

 

[2cmorau]

Can't be a miner if ya never experinced bad gas,

good point on the gas, but I have never experienced any bad gas in a mine. yet.... of course the idea with the winch is you have a man on top keeping an eye out and maintain contact with a walkie talkie. As you may have guessed I have a particular shaft I want to check out and I don't think its more than thirty feet deep. reading on here I do like the idea of replacing the cable with climbing rope though. I dont think it would be that dangerous with the proper set up. As for the bats. yes they do like those old mines sometimes don't they?

 

[kabah088]

I like to keep it simple a heavy duty hand winch, chains and jacks. we have a little cradle made for the smaller stuff to drag out of a hole it has skids to help it manuver over the rocks.
we also use a gin pole type set up it works for lifting the cradle out with the lighter cob loads.

simple 3/8 bolt and rigg plate, i use just a star drill for the hole its hand work but not bad.

GT...........







View attachment 1210357 View attachment 1210358 View attachment 1210359

So you drill a hole insert your rig plate with the bolt? Does the bolt hold in the hole you made due to it binding under load? And may I ask what thickness of that rig plate?

I Like this Idea when there are no good trees or anchors to rig to.

Ever had any instance where the bolt sheared or the rig hole failed?

 

[russau]

That's covered under the S.Happens category! anything can happen when heavy loads / pulling / winching is involved!

 

[2cmorau]

i forgot to mention the only draw back on the use of Cable, esspecailly the rocknet, the dam stabing,, them little SUM Bs hurt.

got no trees drill lotza holes two three at the least, safety measure better yet wrap a cable/chain around a bigger rock

friends claim weekend outing, seven of us some detecting, anyway a small bolt came out, hit this dude in the head, when i got to camp and hear about it, learned it took his eye out

 

[Jeff95531]

2c brings up a good point. Either pulling or picking, use your safety glasses. Do I? No, not much. I have them but when I'm picking, I tend to close my eyes or look away. I'll try to remember this with the ol "you'll shoot your eye out kid"! Covering and/or hiding from the cable is a must.

When ever I do something out of the comfort zone, I DO try to think of all the "what if's" before I proceed.

I had a buddy/co-worker show up at work one day sporting a giant eye patch. After a grueling interrogation, he admitted to being lazy and was trying to yank an electrical cord out of the socket, which was behind a chair. The plug bent, came out, turned around and struck him in the eye. Ugh! Jeez!

Lucky for him all healed.

 

[gold tramp]

So you drill a hole insert your rig plate with the bolt? Does the bolt hold in the hole you made due to it binding under load? And may I ask what thickness of that rig plate?

I Like this Idea when there are no good trees or anchors to rig to.

Ever had any instance where the bolt sheared or the rig hole failed?

i use a hilti drop in type anchor with bolt 3/8, have another hilti type a little heavier 1/2 with a pin through the center you drive in.
the holes will get wollered out if you dont keep the bolts snug, never sheared one, but we use hand winch so one can feel what hes lifting, this way you are less likley to have a bolt fail, if worried go bigger.

we use a couple types of plates to fit the shape of rocks, they are at least 1/8 thick the one in my pic is an old leaf spring 1/4 thick you dont need much for pulling, i have had these fail, but there is no flying parts it just fails, the load may roll back but theres no disaster.

i use 2, 10 foot chains and have 4 that are 4 foot chokers so you can fit most rocks with out much fail.
have never snaped a cable or chain, you can feel the point of breakage long before it happens, in most cases where the chain fails, it just falls to the ground, the load is the thing you must watch out for, more so if its verticaly coming out of the hole, so we stack rocks under the boulders to capture progress, if we have a chain fail we dont loose our run.
other times you have to help the rock along with a steel pike this is when you most are in harms way.

I never try to unseat large rock with just a cable winch to much load for the tool, always try to use a small jack to un stick them from there restings.
jacking boulders is probably more dangerous than winching, more failure happens just trying to keep a point on the rock where your jack will stay in place, sometimes one can get pieces of fly rock coming off as the jack is biting into the rock this is most dangerous.

always keep progress captured even if its a few inches as failure could cause everything under the boulder you have been stacking to come apart if your in hole with it, it could be bad. always have a place to put your body out of the way, this is a very dangerous method of moving boulders but it works well.
safetey is up to the opperator, overload your equipment dont pay attention, pay the price, use your equipment as one should, live to mine another day.

View attachment 1213302

 

[Jeff95531]

Like this GT?

https://www.us.hilti.com/anchor-systems/flush-anchors/336428

 

[boogeyman]

Hi, I don't have the answer but saw this and was interested because just yesterday I was down at harbor freight looking at winches thinking of using one as a way lower myself down a mine shaft.(anyone done this) Anyhow the only thing I can think of and this may sound dumb but if you knew the pivot point of what you wanted to move and really wanted to move it you could drill a hole into it and attach an eye bolt so as to use the best angle. (long time since physics class, I probably mean center of gravity)

Just a word or two on the HF winch. Make sure you have a partner topside!!! DON'T use the cheap one with the remote keyfob. We've used one, and the fob died at a bad time. The best thing to have with you as a backup is a climbing rope and a set of ascenders! Run this along with your winch setup & you can transfer to it and climb up if something goes wrong with the winch. Most times, it's just a heck of a lot easier to rappel down & use the ascenders to climb back up. The second use for the rope is to tie finds on the rope or use a bucket on the end. Beats trying to climb out with pockets full of goodies. If you're not using a tripod setup use a tarp or something over the edge to keep dirt and rocks from falling over the edge. Your head will thank you!

 

[kabah088]

i use a hilti drop in type anchor with bolt 3/8, have another hilti type a little heavier 1/2 with a pin through the center you drive in.
the holes will get wollered out if you dont keep the bolts snug, never sheared one, but we use hand winch so one can feel what hes lifting, this way you are less likley to have a bolt fail, if worried go bigger.

we use a couple types of plates to fit the shape of rocks, they are at least 1/8 thick the one in my pic is an old leaf spring 1/4 thick you dont need much for pulling, i have had these fail, but there is no flying parts it just fails, the load may roll back but theres no disaster.

i use 2, 10 foot chains and have 4 that are 4 foot chokers so you can fit most rocks with out much fail.
have never snaped a cable or chain, you can feel the point of breakage long before it happens, in most cases where the chain fails, it just falls to the ground, the load is the thing you must watch out for, more so if its verticaly coming out of the hole, so we stack rocks under the boulders to capture progress, if we have a chain fail we dont loose our run.
other times you have to help the rock along with a steel pike this is when you most are in harms way.

I never try to unseat large rock with just a cable winch to much load for the tool, always try to use a small jack to un stick them from there restings.
jacking boulders is probably more dangerous than winching, more failure happens just trying to keep a point on the rock where your jack will stay in place, sometimes one can get pieces of fly rock coming off as the jack is biting into the rock this is most dangerous.

always keep progress captured even if its a few inches as failure could cause everything under the boulder you have been stacking to come apart if your in hole with it, it could be bad. always have a place to put your body out of the way, this is a very dangerous method of moving boulders but it works well.
safetey is up to the opperator, overload your equipment dont pay attention, pay the price, use your equipment as one should, live to mine another day.

View attachment 1213302

Thanks!

Great info here.

 

[gold tramp]

Just a word or two on the HF winch. Make sure you have a partner topside!!! DON'T use the cheap one with the remote keyfob. We've used one, and the fob died at a bad time. The best thing to have with you as a backup is a climbing rope and a set of ascenders! Run this along with your winch setup & you can transfer to it and climb up if something goes wrong with the winch. Most times, it's just a heck of a lot easier to rappel down & use the ascenders to climb back up. The second use for the rope is to tie finds on the rope or use a bucket on the end. Beats trying to climb out with pockets full of goodies. If you're not using a tripod setup use a tarp or something over the edge to keep dirt and rocks from falling over the edge. Your head will thank you!

We use a tripod set up with a boatswain chair to access vertical holes, our device is a self rescue type set, using a mechanical advantage of 3, our system has a brake to capture progress, also backed up with prussic and seprate saftey line.
Believe it or not I have no pics of this in action as my camera was broke at the time we used it last, so no pics, maybe I can set it up in the yard get a pic to better understand.
This is a very dangerous activity and should only be attempted by folks with proper vertical training both ascending and descending, never attempt to clean out old holes or shafts unless you know what you are doing, rock is very unforgiving a lot of times there is no second chance.
stay out stay alive it, just makes good sense.
GT.............

 

[63bkpkr]

When I was younger and really dumb, I'm only severely inquisitive now, a buddy and I went for a walk in an old hard rock mine and used the ore car track as the trail to walk on. We each had a flashlight on, after awhile it got darker in the mine. I checked my light but it was still bright, point it at the ground and no light. I bent down real close to the track and only then could I tell that the ceiling in the tunnel underneath us had caved in leaving a hole under the track. When we arrived at the caved in spot there was an amazingly large hunk of rock that had fallen from above. We did not really think too much about other sections that could fall at any time. I try to remember that incident as I figure we each were handed a free pass to go around the Monopoly board that day........................63bkpkr

 

[Jeff95531]

They have tunnels under tunnels Glad I heard it from you and not some other way!

 

[63bkpkr]

Yes Jeff, tunnels under tunnels and am glad to be able to tell you about it. This was out of Barstow somewhere.....................63bkpkr

 

[Reed Lukens]

Heck we used to have tunnels under and over right on the American upstream from Murder's Bar. We were all over in those as kids, up the ladders down the levels and all over. The one's across from Robber Roost where they had the gauging station on the Middle Fork. Then as we got older, we would take the cable trolley out into the middle of the river at night with a case of beer and a couple ladies. Having the waters of the American rushing below you was loud and lots of fun... Man those were some good times. The (82 I think) floods took out the trolley and gauging station. Then sometime in the early 90's they sealed the lower tunnel opening and gated everything off. But still today you can climb into the upper tunnel and walk all the way through from daylight to darkness to daylight

 

[63bkpkr]

Hey Reed,
Just thinking about a walk from daylight to dark to daylight reminded me of The Rawhide Mine off the Euchre Bar trail. That mountain looks like giant woodpeckers were all over it! There used to be several 10 stamp mills in various locations along the NFAR as well as some large metal constructions in the water. Large steel wheels, for belts ?, in the river and the like. A Buick 6 engine w/capstan winch mounted to the output shaft of the tranny a bit further upriver between Beacroft and Sailor. I was in the top most room of 10 Stamp Mill at the foot of the hard rock Trinidad mine ~ half way down the Sailor Flat trail, the whole thing was caved in years ago now. Rode the cable across the NFAR just upriver from the main cabin on the Foresthill side of Green Valley Trail, the down hill part of the cable ride was easy getting across the uphill side of the ride was work but fun and yes the river does get loud on a cable crossing. And, good times!...........................63bkpkr

 

[Reed Lukens]

I dredged at the Rawhide back in the day, pulled a ¼oz nugget from just above the rapids by the houses. After originally being asked down there to help them find the gold, which I did, along with a couple of caved in mine entrances at just above river level, hehe. Was told I had to leave because I was too professional... lol. But my buddy who was the caretaker said that after I left and had cleaned out that crack and pointed out the other spots where the gold was to my friend who lived there, Crazy Harry and his friends didn't get squat the rest of the year and never touched the spots that I pointed out. The place had a few spots that hadn't been hit and the first day we hit nuggets, then the greed set in... lol... Definitely amateurs that own that old mine... Harry asked me to pull my dredge because it was a 6" and he only wanted to run a 4" or smaller now after he originally wanted to run my 6" but it was too big for him to run alone when I wasn't there he said. So I converted it to a 4" cause it is my 4,5,6std or 8"sub dredge that I still have. He was on the take, we had taken everything down to put in a new bridge for him and he didn't realize that when we were asked to leave that all of my tools, winches, equipment, and materials to build the bridge were coming out with me. He told me sheepishly that I could leave it all and we just laughed as we packed everything. They were using my well built but too professional dredges until that day. They had old parts and pieces from operations long past but that was it. Nothing complete or use able. I was down there a few times years later but it was always to help them find the gold they could never find and as a local, I pointed them in the right direction. I mean it is only 2 miles from my house as the crow flies.