Who dug Billy the Kids grave......

[Kentucky Kache]

Re: Who dug Billy the Kid's grave......

Hey Cache,
You are SOOOOOO right... That's why I brought this up, just to see what people think and do they have anything to add or show ( researchwise )..

PLL

I said that because the caption under one of the pics says that this solves the enigma.

The "Billy the Kid" that was denied the pardon - was the one that went by "Brushy Bill" in his older days. He had scars in appropriate places for certain gunshots, and it was at one time "proven" that his picture was backwards (they had said it was impossible to be him because of the hand he was holding the gun in was wrong, when, in fact, someone had transposed a negative improperly", so it could have been him. If he wasn't Billy the Kid, he was almost certainly part of his gang, as he had a tremendous amount of information.

B

Brushy Bill's picture was compared to the kid's picture (facial measurements) and, according to the "experts", they were two different people. I love the story of Brushy Bill. I'd like to believe it, but I just need more evidence.

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: Who dug Billy the Kid's grave......

according to the "experts", they were two different people.

Actually, that's not true. If you change the sentence to "some experts say" , then, I will agree.

The majority of sites you will find on the web are either trying to prove he WAS Billy the Kid, or trying to prove he WASN'T Billy the Kid - so, both sides are biased and include mostly information that makes their belief look good.

It IS, a neat story, though. I often wonder why anyone would want a pardon, with no other strings attached - no books, no fame, no nothing - just wanted clemency before he died - if he wasn't.

I know we've actually had mock trials here about some outlaws who were never afforded a trial, but never him.

Personally, I don't think Garrett killed him - but, that doesn't mean I believe that Brushy Bill was him (though I do lean in that direction, mostly because of all the newspaper articles about Bill in the Black Hills Pioneer AFTER Pat Garret supposedly killed him - with testimony from people who had known him personally for a long time - and were surprised to see it was him).

They could dig up his mother and do a dna match, but - for some reason, no body wants that to happen.

B

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Who dug Billy the Kid's grave......

Hey cache,
Here is a list of the pros and cons on Brushy Bill....

PLL

Evidence that Brushy Bill was the Kid:

* Brushy Bill’s knowledge of the Lincoln County War and the life of Billy the Kid was too extensive to have all been read. Several of the things he knew were known to only a few people at the time, including historians. For example, he knew that Colonel Dudley's soldiers that entered Lincoln on July 19, 1878 were black, he knew all the details of how the Kid had to pay his lawyer for his services in his trial, he knew that Billy the Kid wrote a letter to Gov. Wallace proclaiming his innocence in the murder of James Carlyle, and he knew exactly how the McSween house was set up before it was burned.
* In 1949, Morrison took Brushy Bill to the old Lincoln County courthouse, which also once served as the Murphy-Dolan-Riley store. In the building, Brushy described how the building looked during the Kid's incarceration there to a T. Every little detail of how the building looked in 1881, Brushy knew. He said how when he killed Bell, one of his guards, the bullet first hit the wall and then ricocheted into Bell's side, which is true.
* In Brushy's possessions, he had a very old scarf that he claimed to have gotten from Deluvina Maxwell after he was captured at Stinking Springs and brought to Fort Sumner. He said he gave Deluvina the tintype of himself and she gave him the scarf. This really did happen, but only posse member Jim East knew of it and he only spoke of it in a letter he wrote to fellow lawman Charlie Siringo.
* Brushy said that when he went to trial, his first indictment was for the murder of Buckshot Roberts and he was represented by Ira Leonard. He also said that Leonard was able to get the case thrown out. This is true, but very, very few researchers knew of this back during the time Brushy made his claim.
* Severo Gallegos, Jose Montoya, and Martile Able, all surviving friends of Billy the Kid, met with Brushy Bill separately. Brushy talked with them all about events from his past as Billy the Kid and all three signed affidavits attesting to the fact that Billy the Kid and Brushy Bill were one and the same.
* Bill and Sam Jones, also surviving friends of Billy the Kid, also met with Brushy Bill. Although they did not sign affidavits in support of Brushy, due to the fact that they wanted to avoid any publicity that would bring, they did tell Morrison they believe him to be the Kid.
* Jessie Evans, or Joe Hines as he was later known, confirmed to Morrison that Brushy Bill was the Kid.
* Bob Young, a native of Round Rock, Texas, visited Hamilton, Texas in 1930 and first met Brushy Bill. The two became friends and Brushy informed Young that he would like to accompany him on his return to Round Rock. When the time came for Young to return home, Brushy regretfully said he couldn’t accompany him, since his wife was sick. Still, Brushy asked Young to look up an old friend of his, Jimmy McDaniels (a former member of the Jessie Evans Gang and veteran of the Lincoln County War), who also lived in Round Rock. Brushy went on to tell Young that when he found McDaniels, to simply tell him ‘’the Kid says hello.’’ When Young returned to Round Rock, he met with McDaniels and delivered Brushy’s message. Upon hearing this, the old man looked as if he had been badly frightened.
* One day in the 1940s, Brushy was walking down a street in Hico. Also walking down the street was a five year old boy and his mother. When the boy ran into the street and was almost hit by a car, the mother yelled out her son's name, Billy, loudly. Witnesses said that Brushy whirled around and reached for an imaginary pistol. After Brushy realized his name wasn't being called, he hurried away. Although this is not technically evidence in support of Brushy’s claim, and in no way connects him directly to Billy the Kid, it does indicate he was a man used to danger.
* One day in 1945, Brushy was walking down a Hico street. An old lawman named Henry Anthony and his sons were also on the street and when Anthony saw Brushy, he jumped up and yelled at Brushy, calling him Billy Bonney, and told him to throw up his hands. When his sons calmed him down, Anthony said that Brushy was the Kid. He swore for the rest of his life that Brushy was the Kid.
* In 1990, the famous tintype of Billy the Kid, a purported photo of the Kid at age 12, a photo of Brushy at age 14, and a photo of Brushy at age 90 were analyzed in the Acton-Bovik photo study. The study used the most advanced photo comparison equipment around as well as the best scientists. The photo purported to be a 12 year old Billy the Kid was determined to not be him. The photo of 14 year old Brushy was close match to the tintype. The photo of Brushy at age 90 had a 93% match to the famous tintype. The missing seven percent can be explained due to age and dental work, so said Dr. Bovik and Dr. Acton.
* Brushy Bill had each and every scar Billy was said to have (and more).

And against:

* Sheriff Pat Garrett said he killed Billy the Kid, and Dep. John Poe, Dep. Thomas McKinney, and the vast majority of everyone else who claimed to have seen the body of the man Garrett killed agreed to this.
* No contemporary account carries any mention of the gunfight that Brushy claimed transpired between himself and Garrett, Poe, and McKinney after Barlow was killed.
* There exists no evidence, other than the word of Brushy Bill, that Billy Barlow, the man Brushy said Garrett really killed, ever existed.
* When retelling his story, Brushy did make several historical errors. Although a good portion of these dealt with events and facts that were questionable in the first place and therefore dubious (i.e Brushy saying he was present at Tunstall‘s funeral when it is very possible the real Billy the Kid was or Brushy saying that it was Fred Waite who was shot by Billy Mathews during the Brady assassination, not Jim French, when contemporary sources differ as to who the wounded Regulator was), there were some that were definitely wrong. For example, Brushy said that John Selman fought on the McSween side in the Lincoln County War. However, Selman did not fight for either side and didn’t even arrive in Lincoln until after the final battle of the war.
* Brushy claimed that throughout 1871-1874, he left the care of Catherine McCarty a few times to visit his biological father, James Roberts, in Texas, and ended up staying with him a total of two years. However, there exists no contemporary evidence that the real Billy the Kid ever left the care of Catherine McCarty, especially for so long a time period.
* Brushy also claimed that after he fled Silver City in 1875 up until fall 1877, he basically traveled over the entire West (Arizona, Montana, Wyoming, Nebraska, and Oregon), making a living as a bronc rider. However, although documentation of Billy the Kid’s life during this period is sparse, the documentation that does exist seems to indicate he spent this time in Arizona operating as a horse and saddle thief.
* In 1988, physicist and amateur photo expert Thomas Kyle underwent a photo comparison study between the tintype photo of Billy and a photo of Brushy taken at his meeting with Gov. Mabry. Although he used his own methods and his home Apple Macintosh II computer, he announced that in his opinion, the two photos were of two different people.
* Brushy Bill had a well-known association with J. Frank Dalton, a proven false Jesse James claimant. Although this is technically not evidence against Brushy’s own claim, it does cast a serious shadow of doubt on his own credibility.

False evidence used against Brushy Bill:

* It has been claimed that Brushy Bill was illiterate, and therefore could not have been Billy the Kid. In truth, Brushy was completely literate. He had several diaries when Morrison found him, he wrote several letters to Morrison and other people, and he had thought for a time to write his autobiography, but later decided not to, fearing the press he might get. Jim Tully, a good friend of Brushy's, signed an affidavit that Brushy was completely literate. Bob Young, Alton Thorton, W. F. Hafer, Jimmy Ramage, Ablo Norman, Tom Turner, and L. L. Gamble, all surviving friends of Brushy, said he was either literate, or not sure, but none of them said he was illiterate. The theory that he was illiterate sprang from a quote C. L. Sonnichsen wrote in his book, that Roberts was "not a literate man." However, Sonnichsen later said he wished he never wrote that because he meant that Brushy wasn't the type of person who would sit around all day reading history books. He meant to say he was not a literary man.
* It has also been claimed that Brushy could not speak Spanish, whereas Billy the Kid could. However, when Morrison took Brushy to visit with Severo Gallegos, Brushy spoke with Severo's Mexican neighbor, Josephine Sanchez, in perfect Spanish. Jim Tully signed an affidavit that he could speak Spanish as well as a native. Bob Young, Alton Thorton, W. F. Hafer, Jimmy Ramage, Ablo Norman, Tom Turner, and L. L. Gamble also said Brushy was fluent in Spanish. The reason people think he was non-fluent in Spanish is because a myth started that Jarvis Garrett (or Oscar Garrett or Arcadio Brady, depending on which version of the myth you heard) asked Brushy a question in Spanish at the meeting with Gov. Mabry, to which Brushy couldn't respond. This is false. Not one person who was at the meeting ever mentioned this happening.
* Another false piece of evidence used against Brushy was that he was left-handed, and the Kid right-handed. In fact, both the Kid and Brushy were ambidextrous. According to people who knew them, both Brushy and the Kid could write and shoot just as well with either hand.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: Who dug Billy the Kid's grave......

This statement is untrue - by many accounts.

* Sheriff Pat Garrett said he killed Billy the Kid, and Dep. John Poe, Dep. Thomas McKinney, and the vast majority of everyone else who claimed to have seen the body of the man Garrett killed agreed to this.

When people were asked (without Pat Garrett present), most said they were either not given a good enough look at the dead man, or that the dead man was not Billy the Kid. (including people who had said it was Billy the Kid while in Garretts presence - they were afraid of Pat Garrett).

B

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Who dug Billy the Kid's grave......

Thank you Beth (Mrs O) for answering that question viz the old Black Hills Pioneer (Deadwood) newspapers, and yes they are available to anyone who visits. Pretty interesting stuff to say the least.

I have one more bit of evidence to "back" the Dakota Billy the Kid 1884, John S. McClintock's book "Pioneer Days in the Black Hills" has a chapter on the "Battle of Stoneville"; in it he describes the battle and the mysterious "cowboy" who suddenly joined in the gunfight and killed one of the lawmen instantly, adding at the end of the chapter, quote

"Later information disclosed that the unknown cowboy who so mysteriously commenced shooting into the Willard party (posse) during the fight, was none other than Billy the Kid, mentioned elsewhere in this volume as a companion of Jack Geisler. The governor of Arizona had put a price on his head. He later returned to that state where he was recognized and shot down by a sheriff. He was cold blooded and merciless, and killed just for the pleasure."

<pp268 Pioneer Days in the Black Hills, John S. McClintock U. of Oklahoma Press>
I put those sentences in BOLD to highlight them as this part does not match the newspaper articles, and may turn up new evidence elsewhere. McClintock was a stagecoach driver in Deadwood, arrived there in 1876 and knew many historical characters personally including Wild Bill and Calamity Jane, the editors of the Deadwood newspaper said that McClintock's veracity is "unimpeachable". His statements and version of the Stoneville fight agree with the newspaper accounts - except the statements in BOLD. This version claims Billy returned to Arizona and was shot down by a sheriff there, which is a version I have not found elsewhere.

If you can find a copy of this book, the chapter on 'The Fate of Ben Fiddler' describes this Billy the Kid whom McClintock met in person, but was introduced as 'Bill McCarthy'. I am convinced, but that is just my opinion.
Oroblanco

 

[Blacksheep]

Re: Who dug Billy the Kid's grave......

Book link.

(Hope you don't mind Oroblanco, this post is getting
more interesting each day)

http://books.google.com/books?id=0v...a=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#PPP1,M1

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Who dug Billy the Kid's grave......

MUCHAS GRACIAS Blacksheep - that is the very book!

 

[rjstahl]

Greetings
In response to the discussion of Lea's finding of alleged BTK July 1881 funeral original photo.
This photo long ago -- and before the 1960 article was published -- as a photo taken in the 1930-32 when three of Billy's close friends and Charles Foor, who moved into Fort Sumner a few weeks after Billy's funeral, gathered together at request of officials in New Mexico to once and for all locate the site in the abandoned, deserted, and overgrown former Fort Sumner military cemetery. When they arrived, they found that the old adobe wall surrounding the cemetery was gone, they knew that on at least three occasions the entire area in and around the cemetery had been victims of major floods of the Pecos River, and all of the former 'landmarks' that would have helped them locate the gravesite were gone. The four eventually reached a compromise location and mistakenly claimed that Billy's two 'pals,' Charles Bowdre and Tom O'Folliard, were buried next to him. This claim was wrong, as an 1882 newspaper article reporting on that cemetery makes it quite clear that Billy was buried some distance away from the graves of Charles and Tom.
Lea was a romantic and fiction writer and painter, and so I can see why he would get excited about seeing a photo that someone claimed was an authentic photo taken at Billy's funeral. Had he been more of a historian, he could easily have discovered that the four old men in the photo were 'that old' in 1930-32 and not 'that old' in 1881. The comments of several of those who responded to your first message need to drop their beliefs that somehow Billy got out of Fort Sumner that night alive.
Any thoughtful examination of newspapers of the 1880s and 1890s will locate over two dozen men from New York, Ohio, Minnesota, Montana, Arizona, and other states that were referred to or nicknamed "Billy the Kid." The people who knew these men knew them as Billy the Kid, and so if they saw one of them they would of course claim they knew and saw Billy the Kid after the July 15, 1881 death of William H. "Billy the Kid" Bonney. But to read these various stories about Billy the Kid being in Montana, or Arizona, or Texas, or someplace else and believe they all referred to the same man indicates a clinging to an imposter's lies rather accepting the accuracy of countless accounts of a whole range of highly respected and creditable eyewitnesses as well as actions by people who talked to these eyewitnesses. For example, after Billy escaped from the Lincoln County jail, John Chisum, whom the Kid had threatened, left his ranch and holed up in a hotel in downtown Santa Fe for fear of being killed. Within days of Garrett's arrival in Santa Fe after killing the Kid, Chisum talked to Garrett and then returned to his ranch. No way Chisum would have done that unless he was positive Billy was dead. Furthermore, in Feb 1882, the Territorial Legislature voted unanimously to reward Garrett the $500 reward for his action in ridding the territory of the Kid (No one was ever rewarded in New Mexico for killing someone and New Mexico never offered a reward for someone wanted 'Dead or Alive.'). Had even one legislator from anywhere in the Territory mentioned he heard even one rumor of Billy being alive, the reward would not have been paid.
Billy was shot dead by Garrett's first shot. Period. There was no photographer in the area at the time, as a village of about 75 people could not have sustained a full time photographer.

 

[rjstahl]

What is the source of your info about Billy and his hats -- and that he was obsessive compulsive?

 

[Dave44]

What is the source of your info about Billy and his hats -- and that he was obsessive compulsive?

Sorry, he is no longer a member on Tnet