YOUR FAVORITE CLUE/EVIDENCE

[Idahodutch]

Howdy Skyhawk,

You are not alone, there are many who dismiss the Holmes Manuscript, along with many of the other clues, the PSM's, the Salazar Survey, and even Google Earth which is a wonderful tool when used properly. Many are in the same boat with you, yes it's a big boat.

Hello Homar,
I read your post, a few times, but I am not able to discern if your post was a vote.
I'm ok with what ever it might be, if this was a vote, just don't want to guess.
Regards,
Idaho Dutch

 

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[Idahodutch]

Ok, as far as I know, Waltz is the only source for what the rock man is.
I think most folks that have looked, looked for a monument of some sort, that must be located in a brushy spot, and somewhere near the canyon floor, so as to be visable as you walk by.
I looked in that fashion, more than once and found nothing. It wasn't until I took close notice to the wording used.

1. Looks like a man. Looks like standing in brush.
So we already know it's not a real man, he is a rock, but, the lower part of this guy, looks like standing in brush.
It only looks like brush.
2. Over the top of a ridge . . Is where, not near the canyon floor.
So to see a rock man, over the point of a ridge. . He is very tall then. And not really standing in brush, but looks like it.

So, some very large rocky formation, that can be seen beyond the point of a ridge, but you don't see his feet or lower part of his legs, because they are obstructed by the ridge. That ridge is Waltz' uplift. The low ridge you go to see 4 Peaks.

The rock bluffs on north side of Blacktop Mesa, all the rock bluffs, are what from a distance, looks like a rock man. He is not a monument you use up close, or would see nothing but rock.

I guess my question, is if these directions from Brounie Homes Manuscript are total, or even partially, BS, then why does everything fit like a glove.
Why does it take you to the same ravine as Bicknells article.
The odds of this ravine being anything except for the destination of the two sets of directions, have got to be astronomical.

Ok, I'm ready to get plastered with vegetables now

 

[coazon de oro]

Hello Homar,
I read your post, a few times, but I am not able to discern if your post was a vote.
I'm ok with what ever it might be, if this was a vote, just don't want to guess.
Regards,
Idaho Dutch

Howdy Idaho Dutch,

It was not a vote, it was just all in good fun. When some googlers post images that make no sense to anyone else, it irritates the boots on the ground guys to a point that they make fun of all googlers. You how ever use google earth properly, the way it was intended. I have never posted any google earth image concerning the LDM, or PSM's, but I can assure you that they are clearer as to what is being presented, than some actual pictures that we have seen posted. I was just letting Skyhawk know that his boat is sinking. The mine was located three times, not officially, but made public. In 1717 it was located by way of the PSM's. It was kept from the King, but in 1964 it became public, but most can't follow that beautiful map. The mine was later surveyed by the Peralta's in 1853, but kept to themselves until Clay Worst made what he could public. Again most can't make sense of it, Cristobal Peralta had the chance to stake a claim on it, but felt he was to old to learn English to become a U.S. citizen. Then Jacob Waltz also located the mine, again, not officially, but with his directions, and clues of what can be seen while at the mine. Holmes had it validated, again, not officially, by the ore assay of the gold under the Dutchman's bed.

Many of the clues out there are right, while others are mixed up, and others made up. One of my favorite clues is the Dutchman always went behind the rock that looks like a man, on his way to the mine. I have no idea where I read it, but I did read it a long time ago.

On your interpretation of the clues, I have tried to keep to myself so as to not discourage your search. Knowing that we are in the same boat, ( I also struggle some times to walk from my bed to the restroom that's just 24 feet away ) I guess it won't hurt to clear some clues up, so I will clear one up for you. "Where the trail turns South, facing East, you will see a rock that looks like a man...." It is you who faces East to look for the rock that looks like a man, so the rock that looks like a man, actually faces West. Many also have the rock face looking down on the mine, go figure.

Homar

 

[Idahodutch]

Homar, I'm not seeing your rock man, but isn't he to be behind the point of a ridge?
Idaho

 

[Idahodutch]

Homar, I'm not seeing your rock man, but isn't he to be behind the point of a ridge?
Idaho

Homar, thinking about this, apparently both rock guys are visable from that spot. With either rock man, I guess you'd be leaving the trail there anyway.

 

[Idahodutch]

Homar, thinking about this, apparently both rock guys are visable from that spot. With either rock man, I guess you'd be leaving the trail there anyway.

Ok, lets review and see if this seems good enough to continue.
The directions have us going up onto a long ridge, that is by way of leaving the trail on the left side, and it is right at the bend where the rock man(men) show up. The long ridge leads us to a saddle. The trail we took to the saddle, seems to be laying in place quite nicely. Last night I looked at every high point and ridge in that area for ability to view 4 Peaks to north. The ridge high point behind the saddle, is the only place in that core area, that not only is the view there, but the description of the viewing platform and how to get there fit perfectly.
With the results we experienced, it sure looks like we are still on track.

So I need to make some more digrams to see how far we can go.
I'll be back
Idaho Dutch

 

[Idahodutch]

I want to clarify that last night I did find some other spots to view 4peaks, in that core area, but it was just the view, no saddle approach or low ridge to the viewing area like the directions describe.
Idaho

 

[Doc4261]

So the next part of the directions go like this:
In this saddle is a round Indian ruin of rocks. Go through this saddle and on up a low ridge and when you get to the highest point of the ridge you can look north and the four peaks are lined up to look like one peak.

View attachment 1808894

Well, if there was an Indian ruin of rocks on that saddle, it doesn't look like we can see any, but that pile of rocks is odd.
However, we do have a low ridge just beyond the saddle, and a high point, just like the directions.

View attachment 1808898

Well it looks like we do have the Four Peaks in view to the north from this spot, and only one peak is visible.
It's small, but it is there.

Idaho Dutch

In all your pics, u have the keys to the kingdom, U just arnt looking right way. Im sure u will figure it out.

 

[Idahodutch]

In all your pics, u have the keys to the kingdom, U just arnt looking right way. Im sure u will figure it out.

Hello Doc,
I like your post, I'm intrigued, can you give a couple of clues?
Idahodutch

 

[skyhawk1251]

Skyhawk,
Thank you for sharing your views.

So it appears we have a nay vote on the rock man
And I will add my vote of yes for the rock man

So far it looks 50/50.

I'd say that I'm a "soft" nay. I don't see the "rock man," as you do, but I'm not throwing any rotten tomatoes. I'm following your route to endless riches with great interest. I have to admit that it's enjoyable time spent trying to make some sense out of the LDM clues.

 

[Idahodutch]

For handy reference, here is copy of the directions from Brownie Holmes Manuscript

"Go to first water, then to second water, then take the old government trail to San Carlos. Where the trail turns south you will see over the point of a ridge a rock standing in the brush that looks like a man. This is where I always leave the trail. Go to the left of the trail and follow up the long ridge and you will come to a saddle. In this saddle is a round Indian ruin of rocks.

Go through this saddle and on up a low ridge and when you get to the highest point of the ridge you can look north and the four peaks are lined up to look like one peak.
In the other direction you will see a high needle.
In the canyon under you is my hidden camp.
You can't get down there because it's too steep, go to the mouth of the canyon and then back.

You can find the rock house with very little difficulty. You won't be able to see it until you are right upon it. After you find the camp then come back out of the canyon. (Here Waltz gave a direction to the mine that Holmes and Roberts kept secret). You will never be able to find the mine until you first find the rock house as the shaft is completely hidden. A prospector won't find it because there is no ledge in view. In the mine you will find about $75,000 dollars in gold already dug out. There is enough gold left to dig to make twenty men millionaires." I dug the outcropping away and erased all signs of my digging."

So far we have navigated (hopefully correctly) to the high point of the low ridge and are now needing to look in the other direction. In the other direction you will see a high needle.
I wish I could just spit out “Weavers Needle”.
- I do not have any memory of seeing Weavers Needle from that spot. I do not have any memory of not seeing it either. I honestly don’t think that I looked. Saw Four Peaks, and excitedly came back down is what I remember.
- I also am not able to confirm it on GE.
For some reason, WN and Google Earth do not mix... for me, at the view in GE, I can't see WN, but WN in GE doesn't look like WN either, supposed to be different than what is seen below.



If we are to only go by these directions, as Holmes was to do, it would not be fair to bring in other clues. Before we just move on to the next item, it would be good to at least see if he may be referring to something else. In my mind, “High Needle” pretty much describes Weavers Needle.
In the “other direction”
- there are the bluffs of Blacktop Mesa (nah)
- Palomino Mountain (nah)
- Something further in the distance? Maybe
At this point, If I were Holmes standing in this spot, I would now know if it is referring to Weavers Needle or not. But I am in Idaho . . . I do have an idea . . as there are others that have been on this journey besides me, . . . . .I can put the question out . . Do any of you know if Weavers Needle is visible from there?

Maybe we will hear back from someone. But in the mean time we might as well move to the next item on the directions. In the canyon under you is my hidden camp

At this point, as long as there is a canyon under us, then so far, ok, but will have to see after going down there. You can't get down there because it's too steep, go to the mouth of the canyon and then back.

Ok, I’d like to make some visual aids. (I had planned on having this ready, but was unwell today . . .feeling better, but just feeling drained now is all.) but I’ll be back soon.
Idaho Dutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Sorry for the delay,
Ok, the path down . . . You can't get down there because it's too steep, go to the mouth of the canyon and then back.

It may be important to look a bit closer here;
Waltz is talking to Holmes, so I think this is directed at Holmes, when he says You can't get down there because it's too steep



For someone used to traversing in the wild, it is steep, but not too steep to make it (but not going straight down). From personal experience, when I was 49, almost 50, out of shape and an overweight old construction worker, I climbed from the canyon floor to the saddle on my way to the high point of that low ridge.

- I had to stop to catch my breath by the time I got to the saddle. (I climbed up the end of the saddle). I could barely see, had that sweat in the eye thing going full blast. I bent over, walked around some, sat down, got back up, bent over again……finally I was somewhat recovered enough to start getting back on track. I stopped part way into the saddle to check out a man made monument that was there. After examining the monument for a few minutes, I looked at the ravine (without sweat in the eye) for a bit, but I was focused on the high point and getting up there.


- Holmes, following those directions, would have to climb down from that long ridge to floor of Needle Canyon, then climb back up to the saddle. By the time he got up to the saddle, then up to the high point of the low ridge; I think Walz figured it would be too steep for him to be able to safely climb back down to the canyon floor the same way.

I had to be REALLY careful coming back down. Super easy to lose footing and slip, and I was not full strength at this point. Slipping even just a little, can bugger someone up pretty good in that terrain.

One other possibility that I think less likely, was that maybe for some reason, Waltz’ hidden camp is easy to miss if coming through the canyon, from East to West, so he wanted Holmes to go through the canyon from West to East. I think this less likely because Waltz said why . . . too steep. (Edit: It doesn't hurt to keep this in mind when it comes time to look though, because who really knows).

 

[Idahodutch]

Holmes is instructed further; go to the mouth of the canyon and then back.

In the process of putting together some more material, I think the mouth of the canyon Waltz is referring to my not be at the junction of Needle and Boulder Canyons.
There is another mouth of the canyon that is much closer and more visible from that view spot at the high point of the low ridge.


Here is from that view spot, looking down Needle Canyon, towards the junction of Needle and Boulder Canyons. It is not a short hike to go all the way around from the view spot to that junction.





Here is looking down the little canyon on the East of the Saddle. It is only a short way to it's mouth where it junctions with Needle Canyon and then back (to below the view spot that is too steep to go straight down).



This make a lot more sense to me guys, I think my interpretation is going to be to go down to Needle Canyon via the small canyon East of the Saddle.

Idaho Dutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Here is an overhead view showing the two canyon mouths, and the possible routes to get there.

Waltz' aim is to get Holmes from the White cloud at the View spot to the white cloud near the bottom of Needle Canyon as per his location description: In the canyon under you is my hidden camp.
Personally, I think the path over to the Mouth of Needle and then back to the white cloud to find his camp is way too long. . . especially when you could just hike over to the other Mouth of Unnamed Canyon and back.



Idaho Dutch

Edit: Overall, these directions from the Brownie Holmes Manuscript have produced incredible results for our Journey so far.

 

[skyhawk1251]

When evaluating possible routes, try to think the same as the old-timers. Imagine yourself on-foot, with a burro or two in tow, and with limited provisions. The old prospectors didn't have any time to waste, and preferred the shortest, easiest way to get where they wanted to go. Also, keep in mind that Waltz could choose alternate routes to his mine, and would have done so to elude people trying to track him. I have the opinion that, when he tried to direct Julia Thomas to the mine, he gave her the safest route that could be traveled by a woman. Unfortunately, she didn't seem to be a good listener.

Also, if you could post full GE screenshots, with GPS coordinates displayed at the bottom of frames, it would be helpful. Putting the cursor over a specific location, then taking the screenshot, will record the GPS coordinates for that location. Showing the GE directional compass would also be helpful.

 

[Idahodutch]

When evaluating possible routes, try to think the same as the old-timers. Imagine yourself on-foot, with a burro or two in tow, and with limited provisions. The old prospectors didn't have any time to waste, and preferred the shortest, easiest way to get where they wanted to go. Also, keep in mind that Waltz could choose alternate routes to his mine, and would have done so to elude people trying to track him. I have the opinion that, when he tried to direct Julia Thomas to the mine, he gave her the safest route that could be traveled by a woman. Unfortunately, she didn't seem to be a good listener.

Also, if you could post full GE screenshots, with GPS coordinates displayed at the bottom of frames, it would be helpful. Putting the cursor over a specific location, then taking the screenshot, will record the GPS coordinates for that location. Showing the GE directional compass would also be helpful.

Skyhawk,
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that the route from the 'view spot' to down below, to find his hidden camp, should not be the route we picked? Some of the reasons you wrote about, were the reasons we selected our path, to go via the mouth of the unnamed canyon, that is on the East side of the saddle.

I'm sorry you find my visual displays to be not enough information for you.
I plan to continue on this journey, as far as I can, but this has been a long day.
Tomorrow is another day, have a good night everyone.
Idaho Dutch

 

[skyhawk1251]

Skyhawk,
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that the route from the 'view spot' to down below, to find his hidden camp, should not be the route we picked? Some of the reasons you wrote about, were the reasons we selected our path, to go via the mouth of the unnamed canyon, that is on the East side of the saddle.

I'm sorry you find my visual displays to be not enough information for you.
I plan to continue on this journey, as far as I can, but this has been a long day.
Tomorrow is another day, have a good night everyone.
Idaho Dutch

No problems with your route, but as I wrote, "try to think as the old-timers did" as you proceed. GPS coordinates and GE compass will help guests/newcomers to this forum, who are not familiar with the Superstition Mountains.

 

[Idahodutch]

Well its a new day, and we have a journey to finish. The remaining parts of the directions, after, In the canyon under you is my hidden camp. go like this:
You can find the rock house with very little difficulty. You won't be able to see it until you are right upon it.
After you find the camp then come back out of the canyon. (Here Waltz gave a direction to the mine that Holmes and Roberts kept secret).
You will never be able to find the mine until you first find the rock house as the shaft is completely hidden. A prospector won't find it because there is no ledge in view.
In the mine you will find about $75,000 dollars in gold already dug out. There is enough gold left to dig to make twenty men millionaires.
" I dug the outcropping away and erased all signs of my digging."

After finding the hidden camp, along with what else that might have been left there by Waltz, we go back out of the canyon . . . . .
What were the things that were said to them? If we were Holmes or Roberts at this point, we would be hiking directly to the mine, I would think.

There are other clues that may give indications to perhaps some of what may have been delivered in the undisclosed part. Personally, I believe there is.
Like I said, I plan to see if I can finish this journey. It's going to take a few months to see if I can get myself in to a place physically, that I can go boots on the ground once again and finish this thing once and for all.

That is of course, unless one of you beat me to it.
Gentlemen, It has been a pleasure.

Sincerely, Idaho Dutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Well its a new day, and we have a journey to finish. The remaining parts of the directions, after, In the canyon under you is my hidden camp. go like this:
You can find the rock house with very little difficulty. You won't be able to see it until you are right upon it.
After you find the camp then come back out of the canyon. (Here Waltz gave a direction to the mine that Holmes and Roberts kept secret).
You will never be able to find the mine until you first find the rock house as the shaft is completely hidden. A prospector won't find it because there is no ledge in view.
In the mine you will find about $75,000 dollars in gold already dug out. There is enough gold left to dig to make twenty men millionaires.
" I dug the outcropping away and erased all signs of my digging."

After finding the hidden camp, along with what else that might have been left there by Waltz, we go back out of the canyon . . . . .
What were the things that were said to them? If we were Holmes or Roberts at this point, we would be hiking directly to the mine, I would think.

There are other clues that may give indications to perhaps some of what may have been delivered in the undisclosed part. Personally, I believe there is.
Like I said, I plan to see if I can finish this journey. It's going to take a few months to see if I can get myself in to a place physically, that I can go boots on the ground once again and finish this thing once and for all.

That is of course, unless one of you beat me to it.
Gentlemen, It has been a pleasure.

Sincerely, Idaho Dutch

Progress update;
Good news, had the nerves in my lower spine oblated 3 weeks ago and the procedure was successful.
I am able to get around with about 80% less pain. I have started physical therapy to get muscles loosened up and working again. Taking protein for muscle growth.
After this cv-19 and things open back up, plan to see how I do on a horse.

My plan is to make it back to the ravine in late sept or early oct this year. Then give a report, (hopefully show and tell) of the findings at LDM 2020 Rendezvous.

Wish me luck, I'll update on the progress.
Idaho Dutch

 

[azdave35]

Progress update;
Good news, had the nerves in my lower spine oblated 3 weeks ago and the procedure was successful.
I am able to get around with about 80% less pain. I have started physical therapy to get muscles loosened up and working again. Taking protein for muscle growth.
After this cv-19 and things open back up, plan to see how I do on a horse.

My plan is to make it back to the ravine in late sept or early oct this year. Then give a report, (hopefully show and tell) of the findings at LDM 2020 Rendezvous.

Wish me luck, I'll update on the progress.
Idaho Dutch

glad to hear your surgery was successful