YOUR OPINION AND WHY - All welcome to join the debate - DID PIRATES BURY TREASURES ?

[ARC]

But just to passify you... and because I actually like you...

I will provide some things for you to "think" about...
Some "clues" so to speak...
But first... I want YOU to provide in your opinion from FACT when the "story" of gaspar was created...

Definitively.

A specific year that if YOU had to prove it was a made up story.
When...
Was it made ?
Year(s) even.
Then after that I will give you the first piece of the FACT that will counter this.

 

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[ECS]

I believe that I have mentioned that many times , if not on this thread, on your other thread, so we can avoid the redundancy that plagues some threads that we are both familiar.
PS I am not the only one that holds this opinion.

 

[ARC]

I don't want an "early 1900's" answer...
I want the year...
Would be nice to have "who" as well.

And this too is a "story" yes ?
A legend ? that this "developer" made up ?

We have all heard this story over and over... yes.
But I want the when.
When.
Narrow to ten years then.

See... same thing happens...
NO documentation of THAT happening either.

Now... I am off to my other job of being a vampire on the night shift selling coffin waterbeds...
By morning ... I wanna see some date.

 

[ARC]

No date(s)... heh...
This is the first step "onward through the historical fog"...

Welp that "brochure" "legend" is a hard one to pin down as well it seems...
AND IT... is not near as old...
and was started in a time of better "documentation"...
YET no "examples" exists...
And other than some "made up brochure" legend...
We have no factual evidence that this story of Gaspar was some "elaborate hoax" to dupe "treasure hunting home buyers"...
Which when you really think about it...
Would not "clinch" any deal IMO of selling anything.
Nor would it really "aid" in such really.
No land owner/seller committee decided to start an ELABORATE rumor of a murderous pirate that plundered the seas...
Set up shop on these "owned and now for sale lands"...
And possibly buried his stash on the "properties that are for sale"
This would have been a stretch for even then.

Besides... I would like to start with this FACT... to counter this "brochure start" to the Gaspar legend...
The Land in which Gaspar was rumored to have frequented...
WAS NEVER FOR SALE during this time.

The original bridge that opened the real estate market to the "main island" was not built until 58.

 

[ARC]

Btw... this is the earliest "ad" directed to prospective land buyers that I have found.

No mention of Gaspar or treasure... YET the legend had existed at this point for 100 years.

 

[ARC]

As far as Gomez is concerned...

Lets see what the actual folks who MET him had to say with the WORDS they used to describe him and so forth...

You might like these "accounts"... I did. :P

Start here... https://floridamaritime.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/gomez-research-paper-20121.pdf

 

[ECS]

Johnny Gomez is the origin of the Gaspar story, which includes capture of his ship the USS ENTERPRISE, December,1821. In his tale, to avoid capture, Gaspar wrapped himself in chains and jumped overboard.
The USS ENTERPRISE was commanded by Lt Lawrence Kearny, and indeed he was involved in eradicating piracy.
March, 1821, Kearny was involved in removing Lafitte from Galveston Island.
October, 1821, Kearny raided the pirate base of Charles Gibbs/James D Jefferies at Cape Antonia, Cuba, and destroyed Gibbs pirate flotilla, and remained patrolling in that area for several months.
Kearny later was promoted to Commodore, and after retiring, became mayor of Perth Amboy, NJ.
While logs and records of the USS ENTERPRISE exist in US NAVAL ARCHIVES, that confirm the encounters with Lafitte, Gibbs, and other pirates, there is NO mention of any encounter with, or the name Jose Gaspar.
Lawrence Kearny's diary and the personal papers are contained in the New Jersey Historical Society, that detail his naval career, no mention of Jose Gaspar.

 

[ARC]

Made up version... or missed identity of pursuant/attacking ship perhaps ?
Would be hard to tell after all...
Stern would be "out of site" and "author" states that the flag was used as a trick...
With that said NO identifying characteristics would have been "seen" by ole john as he RAN /swam away.
IF it was told to him at a later date "who" attacked the ship earlier then could we presume that the story could have been misconstrued ?

OR perhaps ole Johnny did not want to reveal the true attacker for some reasons unknown.

Perhaps... just perhaps...

Not the "ship" old "johnny" thought she was ?...

Hmmmm deeeeeep man... deep.

Wonder if there lurks such a tale

 

[ECS]

There is NO mention of Jose Gaspar in US Naval Archives.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1997-02-09/news/97007056_1_jose-gapar-gasparilla-island-Gomez
http://www.gasparillafest.com/history.shml
Johnny Gomez is the source of this pirate tale, with NO outside collaborating evidence.

 

[ARC]

Or was this incident "erased" for a reason ?

And perhaps there are records... but those records have been "lost"...
maybe lost "on purpose"...
Innocently misplaced ?

Maybe there was a good reason for this in the minds of the men behind the "erasure"...

Hmmm...
That means that perhaps someday...
someone may MIGHT run across evidence of such a thing...

And learn that perhaps the reason for "sweeping it under the carpet"/"hiding" this incident was because of...

 

[ivan salis]

pirate seldom buried loot ..they tended to be rob and spend the money types ..loot was often in the form of goods that had to be sold to get any real value from them-- so often dishonest "respectable" business men types bought the entire lot of goods from the ship looters ..in exchange for food ,rum and trade goods they needed for shipboard life (gun powder and weapons and medical kit items) as well as sails and rope and such for the vessel itself ---and a bit of cash to go whoring or drinking ,drugging with . now small towns that saw pirates coming ashore to raid and loot might have rapidly buried loot and gotten wiped out by pirates .. or when being chased upon land to speed up their fleeing pirates might have buried loot ...or if a pirate leader had a stash spot for his retirement stash ..for when he was to quit pirating and go "respectable"... but to just stash raided funds on a steady basis..by burying it nah...

 

[McClod]

Part of Capt. Kidd treasure found in his sunken ship, also speaks of his buried treasure, fact or lore I don't know, but a better read than the ongoing argument this thread seems to have degraded to lol. I love the topic of this thread even though I can't claim to be knowledgeable about, but it became a difficult read unfortunately. Help each other out with info, would be great to learn more about it all. Everyone here has probably read the article here, if so my apologies for posting it, but the discussion got me interested in learning more about Capt. Kidd and other historical figures. HH

Pirate Captain Kidd's 'treasure' found in Madagascar - BBC News

 

[ARC]

Part of Capt. Kidd treasure found in his sunken ship, also speaks of his buried treasure, fact or lore I don't know, but a better read than the ongoing argument this thread seems to have degraded to lol. I love the topic of this thread even though I can't claim to be knowledgeable about, but it became a difficult read unfortunately. Help each other out with info, would be great to learn more about it all. Everyone here has probably read the article here, if so my apologies for posting it, but the discussion got me interested in learning more about Capt. Kidd and other historical figures. HH

Pirate Captain Kidd's 'treasure' found in Madagascar - BBC News

Then thread mission accomplished

 

[chriskellyco]

I doubt it. Pirates were more about getting the quick buck and spending the quick buck. Most of them probably didn't expect to live long enough to be able to get back to it anyways.

 

[ivan salis]

as a seafaring man for 27 years as well as having a family history of seafaring in my family that ran almost 300 years (I was the last of the line--of merchant seaman) --I know the ways of the seafaring man .... get money , party hardy go get more money --this has not changed a lick in a long long time ... the vast bulk of seafarers will piss thru money so fast it will make your head swim ...a few however do save their cash ...pirates were seafaring folks , who could be caught and hung a at moments notice ... very few planned for "retirement" and a long life or - saved up their money to buy a business or land to taking up farming .."going respectable" .as they called it mainly because they would be bored to death by it.

 

[McClod]

One thing about Pirates, or any other seriously traveling person, but especially pirates is why would they bury vast riches in some far away out in the middle of nowhere hidden location and expect to be able to get back to it to recover it when loot/cash is needed, and probably needed quickly, when 1. They're going to be traveling or sailing hundreds, probably thousands of miles, and 2, when navigation technology of the time was so rudimentary?

I know, or learned a little more about the navigation part of sailing when I visited Jamestown Va. last year as it just blew my mind that ships dropping off people in the new land would be able to set sail back to England for more people and supplies for the colonies and then be able to find their way back to the same site, even though the coast line was made up of many huge bays and tributaries, islands all making precise navigation very tricky, especially to myself (the colonists were damned lucky it wasn't I who would be bringing their badly needed food and supplies back to them!), not being trained in the art and science of navigation. To me, burying my treasure would be about the same as tossing it overboard at sea in a storm for all practice purposes. Of course the seamen of the day knew far more about navigation and must have been very confident in their ability to relocate and recover it.

It just makes more sense to me to bury it somewhere closer to home for easy access, and to be able to keep an eye out on it. Their skills amaze me if they were good enough to travel across the seas to find their piggy bank again! But then I've always known that it's a very good thing science was not left to me to figure out because if that was the case we would all still be following lightning storms if we needed a fire...

 

[kayakpat]

I have always heard tales of pirate buried treasure, I don't know if any have actually found, Mel Fisher treasures seem all from ship wreaks, and sometimes people find treasure buried on shore in the sand, but those too could be from ship wreaks. I would not doubt in that lawless times people did hide some of their wealth to keep from being robbed. I just can't recall of anyone actually finding a purposely hidden buried treasure by a known pirate, just stories. I don't know maybe just tall tales or ship wreaks mistaken for buried treasure

 

[releventchair]

One thing about Pirates, or any other seriously traveling person, but especially pirates is why would they bury vast riches in some far away out in the middle of nowhere hidden location and expect to be able to get back to it to recover it when loot/cash is needed, and probably needed quickly, when 1. They're going to be traveling or sailing hundreds, probably thousands of miles, and 2, when navigation technology of the time was so rudimentary?

I know, or learned a little more about the navigation part of sailing when I visited Jamestown Va. last year as it just blew my mind that ships dropping off people in the new land would be able to set sail back to England for more people and supplies for the colonies and then be able to find their way back to the same site, even though the coast line was made up of many huge bays and tributaries, islands all making precise navigation very tricky, especially to myself (the colonists were damned lucky it wasn't I who would be bringing their badly needed food and supplies back to them!), not being trained in the art and science of navigation. To me, burying my treasure would be about the same as tossing it overboard at sea in a storm for all practice purposes. Of course the seamen of the day knew far more about navigation and must have been very confident in their ability to relocate and recover it.

It just makes more sense to me to bury it somewhere closer to home for easy access, and to be able to keep an eye out on it. Their skills amaze me if they were good enough to travel across the seas to find their piggy bank again! But then I've always known that it's a very good thing science was not left to me to figure out because if that was the case we would all still be following lightning storms if we needed a fire...

I may have found a crew mate!
We will not be leaving sight of land.

 

[ARC]

Like I originally stated... IMO... SOME did...

Those who had a "base of operation"... AKA.. temp home... AKA campsite area.
Would bury just because there was nothing else to do with some things to keep them safe.
When one is "working" an area to commit crimes...
Escape routes and contingency plans have been put forth...
At least IF they were worth their weight in salt... some were even smarter than the average bear...
They would know the "ins and outs" ...
waterway routes and hiding spots of any area they planned to "do biz" in.
Most of them... probably better than the inhabitants who lived nearby.

One of the main reasons we hear of the pirates that we have is because they were caught...
Or had done something legendary...
Or something really off the wall bad.
No one talks about "the fish that got away"...

For every 1 pirates name we can say today... imo... there are 3 that have been either forgotten or never known.
Many were never even heard of or seen in writing or history at all.
Most worthy pirates had an "escape route" when committing crimes in the "populous waters"...
things can go wrong easily... at any moment.
One must "hold the cards" of sorts.

Consider it... Organized crime of the times if you will.

 

[McClod]

I may have found a crew mate!
We will not be leaving sight of land.

When it comes to the Ocean, I like to keep dry land within my reach! ;-)