1611 Spanish Cob - Help!?

[Bwilliken]

Hey Guys,

Been trying to research this Cob I recently bought online, and ran across this site. Was going to post some pics and see if you guys could help me figure out exactly what it is I have here.

So here's the story on this coin. I bought it from someone who was diving off the coast of Florida and claimed to have found this item along the sea floor.

He claims that from the research he has done, he believes it could be a previously undiscovered shipwreck.

I cannot find the exact design of the front and back of this coin on any cobs I find online or that sold on ebay. I want to see if you can help me identify the Mint location of this coin, the type/ design of this specific item. And anything else that could shed some light on what exactly I have here. I bought it mainly because I thought it was awesome, and I love coins, but I would like to know more of it's history. I would also like to know its relative value and condition if possible.

Thanks for your time!

 

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[Bwilliken]

Sorry, to clarify, I did not buy this coin 'online'. I bought it from someone face-to-face.

 

[lisfisher]

Looks like a shield type. Found the following info regarding shiled types via web search: "Struck at the Mexico, Santo Domingo, Lima, La Plata, Potosi, Panama, Cartagena, and Bogotá mints in the time period of 1572 to 1734. Dates first appeared in 1607 at the Mexico mint."

Can you make out what the letters are on the left side? Is that an "M" and an "R" ?? Never saw a pattern like that before, but it does have the shield design on one side. If that is an M, it could have been minted in Mexico
.

- MINTMARK = M (small o over the M)​

DATE1572 thru 1607 1607-1608 1608-1609 1610-1617 1618-1634 1634-1665 1666-1677 1677-1705 1705-1723 1724-1728 1729-1730 1730 1730-1733​

ASSAYER MARKO F F (small o over the F) F&D (small o over the D) F A F D P G L J D R G F​

ASSAYER NAMEName and exact dates for the period 1577-1607 are (first dated coin) Geronimo Bercerra Martin Lopez Jose Eustaquio de Leon Nicolas de Rojas Felipe Rivas Angulo​

 

[Bwilliken]

After looking with a magnifying glass, it does appear to be a sideways 'M' on the left side of the coin. Above that it appears to be an 'R' at first look. But while studying further it appears it could be a 'P' as well, as part of the 'R' looks like it could be from corrosion/abrasion.

 

[Diver_Down]

There are smaller clues, but the biggest clue is in the legend. I'll leave it at that for now so others can chime in on this exercise.

 

[Bwilliken]

Yeah, I am worried. Apparently the 1611 is in the wrong place, and appears to be 'contrived' from another source that seems to know something about these items. I guess you live and learn :-/ But man, the guy had a great story and seemed to be so enthused about the find, it really made me believe. He also has been contacting me and we have been doing lots of research on the item, as he claims to have found more. I guess I got conned haha. Well hopefully one day I can purchase a real spanish pieces of eight! Also anyone please chime in if there is any possibility that this coin IS LEGIT. And any information on why the date would be where it is.

Thanks for your help!

 

[FindSomeGold]

I'm no expert, but it looks a little "off" to me. Inspecting around the rim of the coin do you see any "lip" that looks like two piece were sandwiched together? If there is a line, I think that's a dead giveaway of a fake. Have you put it up against a silver test kit to be sure it's even silver too?

 

[realeswatcher]

I'm not sure we have to stretch this out... the piece posted is a replica. It is a cast of a Potosi mint assayer M piece, which dates specifically to 1616-1617. As mentioned, the mold was altered to add that date of "1611"...

The easy way of knowing:
1) I'm certain I've seen a twin(s) of this before and have pic(s) of it on my main computer (monitor's busted, so don't have access to them). Cobs were hand-hammered on hand-trimmed planchets, so you will never have pieces that are identical in terms of amount of detail, placement of that detail, shape... Thus, as with ancient coins, "twinning" can be a simple way to weed out some fakes even if you don't have any specific knowledge about features to look for.

Also kind of easy ("BUT"...) -- the date/"legend" (writing around the periphery of the coin)... what Diver_Down (and now BWilliken) is referring to:
"1611" would obviousy be a fantasy date and automatically damn it. But let's say that that date was a sloppily done "1617", which would be an accurate date for this piece...

What would jump out is that date is not in the typical place... rather than from 10 o'clock to 12 o'clock, it shows at 1 o'clock. For just about EVERY Potosi-mint shield-style cob, that would automatically invalidate the piece. 1617 is a bit odd, though... That was the first year they put the date in the design, and there was some slight variation as to where it would appear in the reverse legend. Nonetheless, the fact that the date is where it is (and seems to be 1611 rather than 1617, for all intents and purposes, clinches it.

3) what you should eventually be able to do... suspect that it's cast just from looking at the surfaces/detail
Of course you need to be a bit more experienced with cobs/coins to perceive that, but remember, there isn't always an easy tell. There are threads on here, the colonialcobs forum, and elsewhere that elaborate on what to look for. Quickly, you are seeing "mushiness" on the periphery here (that molded clay look), plus some unnatural discrete pores .

 

[realeswatcher]

A FindSomeGold said, there "could" be a casting seam along the edge... It may also be base metal rather than silver (though I'm not sure acid-testing coins is the best general practice... testing specific gravity is less harmful, but a bit complex).

Again, those would be EASY tells... BUT there are casting methods that don't leave a seam, and often these replicas are indeed done in silver.

One thing to note... you need to be especially careful when dealing with (polished, porous) pieces from the period that produced the Atocha's coins. There are a LOT of replicas (for jewelry or a cheap keepsake) of Atocha coins produced by various outfits over the years. Sometimes these are marked clearly, sometimes they are marked discreetly, sometimes they aren't marked at all. This is very inviting to people like the guy who tried to con Bwilliken... At first glance, to the uninitiated (or even the semi-initiated), these replicas can look pretty decent... Cynical me often wonders if this notion isn't lost on some of the people who market these repros... but, it is what it is.

 

[Bwilliken]

Thanks, you guys are great. Ok, so let me have it on this item also. Crossing my fingers....

 

[Diver_Down]

Thanks, you guys are great. Ok, so let me have it on this item also. Crossing my fingers....

It looks genuine with the appropriate "wear and tear". Signature ink matches the age of the note. But I'm no expert when it comes to paper currency. There is a paper currency forum on TNet that you might get a more authoritative opinion.

 

[Mackaydon]

bwilliken,
Welcome to Treasure Net !!
A "Texas Obsolete" similar to yours, but in excellent condition (63) sold a year ago during a Heritage auction for $633.50. You might check on Ebay under Completed Listings (or similar wording) for other similar bills that have sold more recently.
Don.....