🔎 UNIDENTIFIED 1630 Thaler - Is it real or is it fake?

[lenmac65]

I guess I already know what this item is - a 1630 Austrian States Thaler of Archduke Leopold V; however, I am uncertain of its authenticity. My dad gave it to me around 1980 when I was a young teen. Looking at it now, I have some concerns and am considering sending it somewhere to be authenticated. Before I do that, I thought I would post it on this forum, as so many on this site have great knowledge of coins.

One concern is the raised vertical lines going across the crown and shield, as well as some random little blobs of metal elsewhere on the coin. I am hoping they resulted from die breaks at the time of legitimate minting, but I have no experience with such flaws. A second concern is the rough looking surface around the head and face (hard to describe or capture in a photo). I don’t normally see that on silver coins, where open spaces tend to be smooth, but maybe that’s typical for this coin or era, or perhaps it’s some corrosion. A third concern is a single, short, raised line on the edge, which seems unusual to me.

This coin is non-magnetic, weighs 28 grams, and is 42mm in diameter, which are right for this coin. The lettering also looks pretty sharp to me, and I don’t see a molding/casting seam along the coin edge (though it could have been filed off, I suppose). Still, something just seems a little off with this coin, which is perhaps why my dad gave it to me 😆. Any thoughts, suggestions ,or opinions regarding this coin would be much appreciated. Thanks!!

 

[Digger54]

Have you looked for an authentic one online to compare it to?

 

[Mackaydon]

If you have interbranch service at your local library, you can retrieve and read this book for free (or maybe a couple bucks for the retrieval service).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202812655547

Don in SoCal

 

[lenmac65]

Have you looked for an authentic one online to compare it to?

Thanks! I have seen a number of these coins on line, though ones with these potential die cracks have thus far eluded me, despite some commentary I found saying they are common. The search continues!

 

[lenmac65]

If you have interbranch service at your local library, you can retrieve and read this book for free (or maybe a couple bucks for the retrieval service).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202812655547

Don in SoCal

Thanks for the link. That book looks very interesting, though I can’t tell if it provides info on errors or counterfeits. I may have to get off my butt and see if I can get a copy thru my library’s network.

 

[ToddsPoint]

If that coin is fake, they did an amazing job. Quite a bit of detail for someone to fake. My great grandfather came to the US from Tirol Austria in 1892. In 1915 during WW1 part of Tirol was transferred to Italy. My relatives that we are still in contact with now live in Italy. They didn’t move but the border did.

 

[jeff of pa]

Back in the late 70's Early 80's I Joined what I think was the American Numismatic Society (or Association) Because they were Giving a bunch of collectable coins to new members . I receivd a Maria Theresa Thaler
with the Coins. it's Slightly Possible that is How Your Father Aquired His.

 

[lenmac65]

If that coin is fake, they did an amazing job. Quite a bit of detail for someone to fake. My great grandfather came to the US from Tirol Austria in 1892. In 1915 during WW1 part of Tirol was transferred to Italy. My relatives that we are still in contact with now live in Italy. They didn’t move but the border did.

Thanks! I think the quality is too good to be a contemporary fake, and we have owned the coin too long to be a recent Chinese reproduction, so perhaps it is genuine. I am not sure how widely counterfeited these coins are, either past or present. Interesting about your family ties to the area. This coin was minted in Tyrol, as you noticed. Must be nice to have family connections abroad. I wish I still had ties to family in Canada and Europe.

 

[lenmac65]

Back in the late 70's Early 80's I Joined what I think was the American Numismatic Society (or Association) Because they were Giving a bunch of collectable coins to new members . I receivd a Maria Theresa Thaler
with the Coins. it's Slightly Possible that is How Your Father Aquired His.

Thanks! I suppose that is a possibility, as he may have been a member and these coins weren’t nearly as valuable then; I wish I could ask him. I would go to coin shows with him in Boston as a kid, but would only get handed a free wooden nickel once in a while. Wish the sponsors passed out Thalers 😁.

 

[opalboy]

I’m definitely not an expert, but I’ve done several thousand castings, the surface looks suspect to me, it’s very uneven, or bumpy. Examples online seem much smoother. If it’s cast, it’s a great cast!

 

[Mackaydon]

Thanks for the link. That book looks very interesting, though I can’t tell if it provides info on errors or counterfeits. I may have to get off my butt and see if I can get a copy thru my library’s network.

• Full listing with colour images of 162 thaler versions
• Box thalers, forgeries, special issues presented
• as stated in the product description on the site I cited.
• Don in SoCal

 

[lenmac65]

I’m definitely not an expert, but I’ve done several thousand castings, the surface looks suspect to me, it’s very uneven, or bumpy. Examples online seem much smoother. If it’s cast, it’s a great cast!

Thanks for your opinion. The roughness of the surface, mostly on the head and face, is what makes me suspect too.

 

[lenmac65]

• Full listing with colour images of 162 thaler versions
• Box thalers, forgeries, special issues presented
• as stated in the product description on the site I cited.
• Don in SoCal

Thanks. Sorry I missed that. I went to the table of contents of the book and did not see the sellers description in the eBay post itself. Thanks for the link again, and for the additional info.

 

[lenmac65]

I’m definitely not an expert, but I’ve done several thousand castings, the surface looks suspect to me, it’s very uneven, or bumpy. Examples online seem much smoother. If it’s cast, it’s a great cast!

By the way, based on your casting experience, could a cast coin have these imperfections, which I think look like the result of a die break? How about the single raised line on the coin edge? Thanks!

 

[ToddsPoint]

This coin was minted in Tyrol, as you noticed. Must be nice to have family connections abroad.

Through my relatives, I was able to attend an art and engraving school in Gardone Val Trompia in ‘84-‘85. These are some family heirlooms I was able to bring back. It was an experience I’ll never forget.

 

[opalboy]

If they molded a coin with those features, yes.

 

[unclemac]

this could be helpful

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202812655547

...also read this... A forged 1630 Austrian States Thaler of Archduke Leopold V can be identified by checking for cast-metal seams, incorrect lettering styles, and wrong weight or silver purity compared to genuine mint issues from Hall, Tyrol. Counterfeits of these seventeenth-century European silver talers often appear in online marketplaces or old numismatic collections

 

[lenmac65]

this could be helpful

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202812655547

...also read this... A forged 1630 Austrian States Thaler of Archduke Leopold V can be identified by checking for cast-metal seams, incorrect lettering styles, and wrong weight or silver purity compared to genuine mint issues from Hall, Tyrol. Counterfeits of these seventeenth-century European silver talers often appear in online marketplaces or old numismatic collections

Thanks for the link and additional insights. Mackaydon also provided that link. I may try to get the book on an interlibrary loan. I only have this one Thaler, so it is not worth buying. Thanks again!